Brown cloudy water

[Jrkrouse13]

Ok everyone I am starting to get a little stressed and I am in need of some major help. My tank has been cloudy brown for the past three-four weeks now and I do not have a clue how to solve it. I have been using distilled water for two weeks and that has not solved the issue. The tank inhabitants do not seem so bothered and the gsp in my tank has actually started appearing since I moved it to a new location however the polyps are still minuscule in size prior to the brown water. I have tested my parameters regularly and everything has been hovering around similar levels since the tank has been eatabish and or I could test for them. I am using reef crystals which I am having a hard time getting completely dissolved when mixing water as well. I have a hob filter running floss chemipure blue and since the last week one bag of phosguard. Any insight will help. I am just not sure what to change or correct at this point.

 

i have also been experiencing a snail die off lately as well losing four astreas for some unknown reason. 

 

i have attached three pictures from all sides to help diagnose if at all possible. 

[Clown79]

The cloudiness looks more white than brown to me.

I was expecting poop water. Lol

 

If its white- bacterial bloom

 

If its green- algae bloom.

 

If its a fairly new tank, you may not have enough algae for all the snails to eat/survive. Its best to start off with less than more.

 

Using phosguard is great for when you have continuous phos issues. Its really important to test while using because it can strip a tank.

Using small quantities is best.

 

Chemipure blue already has phosphate reducing resins.

 

Are you changing floss 2 times a week?

 

When you mix your salt are you using a powerhead and heater? Do you add slowly while stirring it?

[Oldsalt01]

Definitely a bacterial bloom. Any odor? I'd guess one of ur snails is unaccounted for. Put an air stone in and pump it full of air. U should see it start to clear over 24-48 hours. How long has the tank been up?

[Pinner Reef]

I really hope it's not what I think it is.

 

Click the link in my sig and scope out the last couple of pages.

[gone_PHiSHin]

3-4 weeks it's been like that??

 

hmm, i'd do a large water change to start with, and run carbon, but i don't know what's causing it.  usually cloudy water is an indicator of a bacterial bloom from what i've read.  which could mean ammonia.  which could be the cause of dead snails...

 

how long has the tank been cycled?  how long have the fish been in after that?

 

also looks like you have a lot of GHA, maybe the rocks are leaching out some phosphates and such?  

[gone_PHiSHin]

one more thought...you said you have been using distilled for the past two weeks, what were you using before that?  tap water can do nasty things to your tank, even after you switch to distilled or RO/DI

[Jrkrouse13]

I'll try to answer as best I can. 

 

Clown- I have been changing twice a week usually sundays and Wednesday's. I use a heater but stir manually and add the Salt after the water. 

 

Oldsalt- there is no odor and I thought airstones were not beneficial for reef tanks? The tank has been running for almost four months. 

 

Gone-I would say the tank finished cycling about two months ago possibly a little longer. I did previously use my own filtered water and have no had issues with that water in any of my other tanks I have set up. Understandably a reef type tank is different. The fish have been in the tank for I would say a month and a half

[brandon429]

so many ways to get that fixed, they break down into two major categories imo

 

1.  things you do to the water and wait

 

 

2.  things you make happen by 5 pm today

 

 

so in my house its option b and it would be exactly this way and look new within two hours./ post pics if you do this, its a skip cycle approach and if you do it right the tank will simply reassemble as new, as you want it. it will never look this way again, because you can apply a hands on mode. right now above is strictly a hands off mode. rocks will cycle/mature/take on alternating generations of plants and calcifiers left only to natural mechanisms. takes massive time comparatively to fix-now mode.

 

When they said nothing good happens fast in reefing, they didn't mean restoration of the eutrophic condition in a reef tank, that can be immediate we just might see. ill pm you a thread of many people doing this to their tanks before you start.

 

take out all rocks one by one and toothbrush off the algae outside of the tank, dump 3% peroxide across the surfaces as you work to scrub the growths off the rock, rinse well all in clean saltwater you had made and ready. rinse  in the sink with that clean sw, crud down the drain, set each rock on a towel when cleaned and ready to put back. all in the air, harmless for the time we're working. Ive had mine out 30 mins before, you'll be doing 6-10 mins maybe not a prob. put em in a bucket of clean sw if that feels better. that step cleans all your rocks. it does not remove the bacteria from the rocks, it makes them work better by removing competing growths.

 

next

drain out and discard all the water, catch your fish and hold them in some of the water, mixed with clean new sw, in a holding bucket

 

now only sand and some water is left

 

take out all the sand and rinse it off with tap water in a bucket over and over until its cloudless.

 

clean off the walls of the tank

 

rinse the sand lastly in clean sw

 

add sand back to clean tank, rocks, 100% new water (and none of this clouds now) and reacclimate your fish. plug everything back in, you just did for the first time what ive done thirty times on a mega old pico reef, only you have the help of actual dilution so there's no prob.

 

The reason you don't have a recycle is because not any of the steps above are antimicrobial. the thread I sent you shows why you can rinse the sandbed in tap, and not lose bacteria.

 

 

I know all this sounds crazy and you w likely take option 1, but one day you'll get tired of the wait

https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/the-official-sand-rinse-thread-aka-one-against-many.230281/#post-2681445     <------brown cloudy water cures

 

[brandon429]

even though the steps are plain as day and work 100% of the time, here's how people did wrong in the cleanup:

 

above it says to rinse sand in tap until it cannot cloud no matter how you handle it. cloudless, as in I rinsed it fifteen minutes straight you couldn't get a cloud out of this if you blew it up. We had a poster partially rinse the sand, input filthy waste into the tank which clouded upon refill, and something died.

 

 

 

the reason we rinse in tap is because you can rinse as long as you want. people who mix up sw often run out

 

poster #2, again on the sand part that says to be cloudless, mixes up a few gallons of sw after reading the advice. they rinse bed, sw runs out, so they put back what they have and it clouds, and something dies.

 

 

for any person who rebuilt a cloudless tank, we can see their outcomes above. plain as day good outcomes all by 5 pm

 

[brandon429]

this method also permanently changes your reefing it will save you thousands of dollars if I could sound like a 2 am infomercial heh

 

hands on is deliberate, non hesitation, command over what you've bought knowing these reef surfaces respond in the same manner across all tanks.

 

 

hands off is the ideal mode...easy work, self running, its the panacea of what we strive for and it rarely if ever comes about early and sustains for a reef tank. but since its the ideal mode, people will start that way and never veer from it. algae is usually a months long headache in this mode, as natural rock maturation could be years of algae before coralline and coral win over. hand farming means your tank complies from day 1 to day 3000.

 

 

we have to earn that condition by early hand guiding, farming, dirt work. maturation makes that less needed, and since we aren't starting with matured surfaces very often in reefing just simply knowing what bacteria allow you to do completely changes the way your reef runs. You dictate what grows and stays, the tank only takes your direction it never gives one to you in the hands on mode. Other than obvious steps of fish acclimation, the only risk you have in the matter is stirring up rotting waste as it may exist in the tank.

 

account for that, you will control your tank permanently. hands on is the reason my pico is so old, that and luck that no nerf balls have struck it.

 

 

fear of the recycle and tank loss was the single reason the hands off mode developed in the 80s and 90s

 

microbiology applied to the aquarium was not very advanced, and aquarists feared killing their bacteria with every mode of tank service. we now know in 2017 they're first to come, last to go, and are the single strongest group of organisms we'll encounter in the hobby. > that makes us free to take command.

[Oldsalt01]

Quote

Oldsalt- there is no odor and I thought airstones were not beneficial for reef tanks? The tank has been running for almost four months. 

Think about it....... How can having MORE oxygen in your tank be a bad thing? If it is a bacterial infection, and I'm pretty sure it is, the bacteria will pull more oxygen out of the water. The possible result? Tank crashes. Any live organisms you have in there will start to die off from lack of O2, which just accelerates the problems. More bodies = more decomposing flesh = increased bacterial bloom. Ya, u'll have more salt creep from the aeration but that is a minor problem considering a tank crash means you start over from Day 1. Try it. You have nothing to lose and the cloudiness should start to clear within 24-36 hours. Once it starts to clear check every single corner and nook in the tank for another body. That may involve pulling the rock out to inspect it but that's also a minor issue. Dying organisms, especially snails have an uncanny knack of dying in the most inappropriate places, usually an inaccessable ##### in the rock. JMHO. 

[Clown79]

Having microbubbles on a constant basis can be an issue to fish or when they attach to fleshy corals.

 

Using an airstone periodically will not be an issue but beneficial. It adds oxygen. Its why we use air stones with pumps during power outtages.

 

 

[Oldsalt01]

I wasn't suggesting a permanent installation of an airstone. What I am suggesting is the need to elevate the O2 levels that the bacteria are comsuming, NOW. Once the cloudiness begins to disappear, a hefty water change, coupled with close inspection of the rock for dead organisms and a thorough stirring of the sand will go a long way to correcting the problem. I would also suggest either stopping, or at least cutting WAY back on feeding the finny residents for a few days. No sense adding more organics to an already compromised system. Patience, Grasshopper. All will be revealed.

[Oldsalt01]

8 minutes ago, Oldsalt01 said:

I wasn't suggesting a permanent installation of an airstone. What I am suggesting is the need to elevate the O2 levels that the bacteria are comsuming, NOW. Once the cloudiness begins to disappear, a hefty water change, coupled with close inspection of the rock for dead organisms and a thorough stirring of the sand will go a long way to correcting the problem. I would also suggest either stopping, or at least cutting WAY back on feeding the finny residents for a few days. No sense adding more organics to an already compromised system. Patience, Grasshopper. All will be revealed.

It also appears you have VERY fine sand on the bottom. This can have the tendency to compact over time if not stirred. A couple of ways to help this would be the addition of brittle stars, Nassarius snails, or even a sand sifting goby. But, not until you have this cloudiness taken care of and the tank is stable. If you opt for the Goby you should wait a few more months to allow the organisms the Goby feeds on to reach sufficient levels to keep him alive. Vacuuming the sand during water changes is a good way to keep detritus from building up.

[Jrkrouse13]

UPDATE!!!!

 

Late last night I followed Brandon's guidelines to a T. I cleaned the rock and even found a little emerald crab that I didn't know I had hiding in the rock. Cleaned the rock, drained the water, rinsed the sand and rebuilt. This morning I did a check on the clarity and I could actually see from one end to the other. No time for pictures however but all seems well in reefland. It took about 4 total hours to clean, scrub, and rinse but I believe this corrected my issue according to the water at least this morning. I am hoping this solved the problem because that was quite tedious in an emergency situation. 

 

Oldsalt: I do indeed have about an inch of aragonite sand in the tank which I thinned out slightly from where it was before this emergency measure. When I do my water changes I do indeed stir the sand with my vac to clean any detritus unfortunately it also gathers small amounts of sand while doing so. 

 

Following up: does anyone have better suggestions on perhaps powerhead placement? Or should I provide a second powerhead on top of what is already in there for more water movement to keep the sand clean on the bottom?

[brandon429]

salivating for pics

 

linked to our sand rinse thread and thanky

[Lula_Mae]

On 6/19/2017 at 1:35 PM, Jrkrouse13 said:

I'll try to answer as best I can. 

 

Clown- I have been changing twice a week usually sundays and Wednesday's. I use a heater but stir manually and add the Salt after the water. 

 

Oldsalt- there is no odor and I thought airstones were not beneficial for reef tanks? The tank has been running for almost four months. 

 

Gone-I would say the tank finished cycling about two months ago possibly a little longer. I did previously use my own filtered water and have no had issues with that water in any of my other tanks I have set up. Understandably a reef type tank is different. The fish have been in the tank for I would say a month and a half

I have an airline (no airstone) running constantly to help break the surface tension of the water and avoid the slimy film buildup that I hate.  Several picos on here run with only an airline for circulation.

 

Glad that Brandon's advice has helped clear out your tank!  You should check out his vase reef sometime.

[Jrkrouse13]

1 hour ago, brandon429 said:

salivating for pics

 

linked to our sand rinse thread and thanky

I will definitely get some pics up as soon as I get off work. I'm giddy with excitement to have my tank back to tops!

[brandon429]

that's just great and 1x is all it takes to now trust the biology of your tank, control was just reinstated.

 

To be honest with you, I never freaked out the few and -rare- times someone reported "I lost my peppermint shrimp after your cleaning I hate the method you said it was skip cycle" lol

 

the perspective doesn't leave me: loss of a $9 shrimp vs completely changing a tanks ability to be invaded and any other aquarium a keeper will setup for the rest of their duration in the science. These manual cleanings are best engineered out, though we can rely on them. keep working on ways to be less work and algae free, post as you go. in the end, you have an ace in the back pocket and if attempts do not work out, its reset button time

 

I choose to evolve nothing, sit back and be lazy on my tank staving off water changes well past what I advise others to do, then rip clean reset when I get the urge. that has made my work less on the aquarium as measured in quarterly intervals, not more work. 

 

[Jrkrouse13]

So from this point brandon what do you recommend in terms of short term care?

[brandon429]

at this point it becomes nuanced into what people have working for them in the past, or the common measures of clean up crews etc and as long as the reactions are done to the clean condition tank then they have a much better chance of working. that's what we do different. we force compliance first, then we try the options that may or may not prevent its return, just that little change up makes you never invaded again. when you make improvements on prevention, you'll deep clean less, either way the algae just got voted out. anything clouding your water-voted out.

 

we can use work to force compliance, because the microbes allow crazy level force and they still work.

 

 

what the masses get undeniably wrong is taking action on the invaded condition by only acting on the water, or with clean up crews. They farm the algae on purpose, sit right there and look at it although they could be free of it within two days. easier to claim in nanos vs large tankers where due to sheer size most of their actions are through the water justifiably.

 

*a caveat must be inserted here for upcoming hobby changes using tools like fluconazole* which is a water only treatment, garnering a massive following in its ability to wipe out certain invaders. The reason I don't change my whole stance to that is: it doesn't wipe out all genera, some are now posting growback details in the flucon threads, and water-actions don't remedy cruddy sandbeds, which in time feeds invaders flucon will not beat.

 

I know its a fantastic cheat, but this is meat and potatoes eutrophication control and I get a massive level of compliance across tanks, low variability, in using this sweat-of-the-brow reefing. quick fixes other than peroxide do not impress me heh.

 

if I had a 200 gallon reef id keep some flucon on hand as a cheat tho, agreed. for nanos I beat them into submission and advise the same for others.

 

 

 

 

 

The #1 thing that worked for me back when I used to battle algae on the rocks (goes away in time, a few more rounds coming up till its solid purple coralline) was to blue up the lighting.

 

 

I expected algae to grow back, I didn't fault the method when I had to retreat a few times, I trusted it stops when coralline takes over and when this system has been on top of a clean sandbed for months, not just as a new change of pace. I changed the lifestyle of my tank and it responded by no more algae headaches. if you can blue up that lighting it really could help your growback and be such a simple tune. Its all very customed and subjective what to do as ideal prevention and I cannot wait until someone truly finds and documents a nano reefing method that is hands off the whole way as a long term method. I aint seen one to date, and I hate having to take my tank apart occasionally. it was mentioned early not to use topoff water that has TDS; that's a good rule for prevention to well and is part of the customed approaches we use to hopefully prevent growback.

 

I do deep cleaning it cuz it works and im past the experimenting stage I just want an algae free purple reef and I took the quickest method to get there.

 

so glad to have your example I linked it on the first page of the sand rinse thread.

[Jrkrouse13]

Pics or it didn't happen!

[Jrkrouse13]

Brandon: follow up questions. 

So if you are not doing weekly maintainence how do you deal with evaporation and salinity and the rest of the trace elements that get depleted or are you still doing weekly smaller water changes?

 

How often should I now be doing this deep cleaning to the tank? Should I be doing this every few months?

Also in those pictures I cannot believe how immidiate the response was from my gsp and torch. They are literally back to their fullest level since before my cloudy water issue arose

[Oldsalt01]

Bravo Zulu (Navy speak for well done)! Looking good, and obviously your corals appreciate your time and sweat equity.

[brandon429]

that is a shocking tank arrest after pic I might tear up a little heh

it needs to be on the first page of our sand rinse thread as an ideal outcome. 

that's just sharp man! pure skip cycle biology, pure. My little tank from my avatar is abnormal it doesn't evaporate in the normal way... reefbowls and vases often get out a week or so before topoff requirements, they're evaporation controlled due to special lids. I just turn my air down and im topping off once a week manually, reefbowls don't need ato they're the most stable nano design of all its just an errant nerfball can kill them

 

I do add topoff water its just maybe 2-3 every two weeks.

 

another trick is that most of us aren't using fish in them...fish add to the detritus production massively. live rock itself literally makes pellet waste (its apartment residents do) and then we're also directly adding feed to the system, there's plant breakdown matrix decaying in any average system, it all contributes. a reefbowl runs so flexibly because we attack those sources so well.

 

no fish, sandbeds that pass a drop test effortlessly, all algae was pre guided out and killed with peroxide so there is no plant decay, and the natural detritus from the live rocks and minor feeding can just be handled monthly its well enough. its a lucky tune for pico reefers, but the large tankers get all the neat fish and fun techy options so its a trade off each way.

 

I can't thank you enough for running the method w such good documentation !