Understanding this dosing ...before dosing... alk test issue / phosphate & algae & NOPOX

[anizato]

Hey everyone,

 

I have been testing everyday for nearly 2 weeks now using the Red Sea Foundation Kit. 

 

First of all, both my Calcium and Magnesium (tritration liquid) bottles have white floating particles in them. Contacted the seller from Amazon and Red Sea, they both sent replacements to my surprise, I was only requesting instructions, they sent replacements instead. The replacements ALSO have particles floating in them... WTF?! So I decided to test anyway, side by side. Same results from all three calcium, magnesium and alkalinity test kits.

 

Having said all this, thank you for continuing to read, I started dosing NOPOX two weeks ago, which is what drove me to test for everything everyday...almost. Nitrate was at 80ppm, surprisingly everything was still alive, but it explained why nothing thrived but the effing algae. There WAS also a Powder Blue Tang in there, and those guys are filthy! He has finally made it into his 375 gallon home (my 50gal was his nursery - I rescued him at 3 months old, they were giving up on him, was not eating ..so I fattened him up in 6 months, now he is back where he belongs). Regardless, NOPOX has brought down Nitrates successfully in two weeks, dosing the 50Gal reef 6ml daily for 18 days, now that Nitrates are undetectable dosing has been reduced to 3ml of NOPOX per day, keeping Nitrates undetectable. SOME patches of algae are disappearing from the rock, I have started to see this green film/moss algae grow on some parts of the rock, I can only assume it is the die off as it still happens at a bacterial/molecular level, so I will remain patient. I also believe this is an indicator my phosphates are disappearing? Would you start the GFO reactor back up or keep it off?

 

 

ALK has been weird tho. I have been double testing since I have 2 different tests. I only have one syringe, which might explain the following:

 

2/10/2017 Blue Powder Tang "Pepe the Fish" has new home. NA 80. NOPOX DAY 1 dosing 6ml. GFO REACTOR OFF!

2/11/2017 NA 60 HADN'T TESTED FOR EVERYTHING YET. WATER CHANGE. 

2/12/2017 - NA 15-20 ; MG 1500 ; CA 395 ; DKH 6.7 EVERYTHING STRUGGLES, LOTS OF CLOSED POLYPS

2/13/2017 - NA 15-20 ; MG 1480 ; CA 395 ; DKH 7

2/15/2017 - NA 15-20 ; MG 1480 ; CA 395 ; DKH 7    EVERYTHING STARTS TO LOOK HEALTHIER, LESS CLOSED POLYPS

2/16/2017 - NA 20      ; MG 1460 ; CA 400 ; OUT

2/17/2017 - NA 10-15 ;  OUT      ; CA 410 ; OUT    EVERYTHING LOOKS HEALTHY

2/19/2017 - NA 10     ;   OUT      ; CA 395 ; OUT

2/21/2017 - NA 5      ;    OUT      ; CA 410 ; OUT   EVERYONE IS HAPPY

2/22/2017 - NA 5      ;    OUT      , CA 415 ; OUT  WATER CHANGE

2/23/2017 - NA 0-1   ; MG 1530  ; CA 445 ; DKH 7.6 - REDUCE NOPOX 6ml=3ml    NEW KITSS      POLYP EXTENSION, BTAS COLORING UP, FISH SWIM MORE 

2/24/2017 - NA 0      ; MG 1580 ; CA 450 ; DKH 7.7    

2/28/2017 - NA 0      ; MG 1520 ; CA 450 ; 8.4  EVERYTHING IS HAPPY, MORE BTA COLORATION, FISH ARE HUNGRIER

3/01/2017 - NA 0      ; MG 1520 ; CA 430 ; 7.8 - 8.4  DOUBLE TESTED ALK, DOUBLE DIFFERENT RESULT. WATER CHANGE.

3/02/2017 - NA 0      ; MG 1520 ; CA 440 ; STOPPED TRUSTING ALK KIT

3/03/2017 - NA 0      ; MG 1540 ; CA 445 ; 7.4 DECIDED TO CHANGE TO DIFFERENT SYRINGE

3/04/2017 - NA 0      ; MG 1560 ; CA 430 ; 6.5 WTF ALK?

3/05/2017 - NA 0      ; MG 1580 ; CA 445 ; GRRRRR ALK TEST ! AGAIN!!

3/06/2017 - NA 0      ; MG 1560 ; CA 445 ; 6.5 RESTESTED TWICED (so yeah, 4 different times, same result always, same syringe though)

 

Aside from the syringe situation though, can someone interpret my numbers and tell me what is going on? do I need to dose ALK? should I trust the Red Sea ALK test kit ? do you?

I am trying to grow out my coral, they have been there long enough and I have been through two algae outbreaks, finally got my Nitrates under control, phosphates will have to be guessed for now until I can get a test kit...

 

Water runs at 79/80 degrees, if it gets too hot it rises to 81/82. All acceptable levels I believe?

Salinity is at 1.025

 

I also heard Clams can be Phosphate absorbers is this true?

 

IF this where YOUR tank, what would you do? Help me get my coral happy and growing.

 

 

 

 

[hersheyb]

My opinion...

 

I would replace the test kit to salifert, personal preference, been using them for years without any issues and they're pretty easy to use.  If you don't want to waste the kit, why don't you take some of tank water to LFS and have them do a test and you can compare your results to theirs. 

 

Alk will normally show daily swings through the day but that depends on what corals you are keeping.   If you can show us a picture of your tank that will help out.  Are you dosing 2 parts?  In my softie/lps tank which has really low demand of calc/alk standard biweekly water changes will do it, no dosing required.  On my LPS/SPS tank I have to dose Alk/Calc daily or my alk can drop 1-1.5dkh.

 

If you don't have much corals with high demanding calc and alk, then I would double check that test kit.

 

 

[thedon986]

Agree, I tried the Red Sea kits...not a fan. Went back to all Salifert and Hanna for ULR Phosphorus. Wouldn't go back.

[Clown79]

I have the red sea pro kit. I like it, much faster.

 

Seems like your alk is having small swings most likely due to consumption from corals, coralline, etc. 

[anizato]

Is it wise to test more than once a day? All this talk I hear about ALK fluctuating during the day, obviously. But does that mean testing everyday at 12pm as opposed to different times of the day everyday it is tested, will give different results? I have also heard dosing ALK should be done at night with lights out?

 

So start dosing ALK?

[vegasgundog]

I have tried 2 different red sea alk and they suck. Their magnesium went bad on me as well. Salifert for the win.

[vegasgundog]

40 minutes ago, anizato said:

Is it wise to test more than once a day? All this talk I hear about ALK fluctuating during the day, obviously. But does that mean testing everyday at 12pm as opposed to different times of the day everyday it is tested, will give different results? I have also heard dosing ALK should be done at night with lights out?

 

So start dosing ALK?

Ime, my alk does a daily drop. I tested daily for a while and used a dry erase on the cabinet to keep track. I ended up dosing 20ml a day but it's looking like I need to drop it to 15 or so. 20ml a day is pushing it to 10.5 thinking I should try for 9.0.

 

Keep the red sea titration holder and bottles, works great with salifert tests.

[anizato]

Hey everyone,

 

I really appreciate all the advice and input. 

 

Before I spend another dollar on more test kits instead of coral... Today was water change day, so I tested for my new batch just to check that possibility off the list, sure enough, the salt mix is perfect and all parameters match those on the label of the bucket. 

That said, I tested 4 times for ALK today. 2 during the morning, and 2 before the water change. All came back at 6.6 dkH in the system. Which means, I have to start dosing ALK, right? 

Since my CA is around 450 and MG is at 1500+ do I ONLY dose ALK? or should I also dose CA? I assume I can hold off on dosing MG, since it has been steady? or am I missing something?

 

Thanks in advance!

[chipmunkofdoom2]

31 minutes ago, anizato said:

Hey everyone,

 

I really appreciate all the advice and input. 

 

Before I spend another dollar on more test kits instead of coral... Today was water change day, so I tested for my new batch just to check that possibility off the list, sure enough, the salt mix is perfect and all parameters match those on the label of the bucket. 

That said, I tested 4 times for ALK today. 2 during the morning, and 2 before the water change. All came back at 6.6 dkH in the system. Which means, I have to start dosing ALK, right? 

Since my CA is around 450 and MG is at 1500+ do I ONLY dose ALK? or should I also dose CA? I assume I can hold off on dosing MG, since it has been steady? or am I missing something?

 

Thanks in advance!

 

Correct, no need to dose Ca and Mg if the levels are within normal reef aquarium ranges. I dose carbonate (alkalinity) daily. I test Ca weekly and Mg monthly, and dose as necessary. Usually they're not too far off, but I don't have a whole lot of calcium carbonate demand in my tank yet.

 

If you have your test kits sorted out and are getting reliable results for alkalinity, then yes, next step is to start dosing. There are lots of different ways you could do this, but personally I would start by attempting to increase your alkalinity by 0.5 dKh per day. After a few days you should be at your target alkalinity. Then, I would dose a small amount of carbonate (alkalinity) every day and see if your alkalinity rises or falls over the next few days. If the alkalinity readings are trending up, dose a little bit less every day. If they trend down, dose a little bit more every day. It will take some tweaking, but eventually you'll find out exactly what daily dose of carbonate you need to maintain your alkalinity.

[Clown79]

The best way to determine the consumption is.

 

Test after water change

Test the next day

That will determine the alk daily consumption.

 

Dose according to that.

 

As for test kits, none are perfect. They all give you an idea of what's going on in the tank.

 

I've used Salifert, Seachem, Red Sea, API- had issues with every one of them. I stopped worrying about whats the "best".

 

For dosing products, it depends on your choice. I prefer 2 part dosers as it keeps alk and ca balanced. When dosing only 1 or the other, the opposite will drop.

 

 

 

[anizato]

11 hours ago, Clown79 said:

 

 

For dosing products, it depends on your choice. I prefer 2 part dosers as it keeps alk and ca balanced. When dosing only 1 or the other, the opposite will drop.

 

 

 

Great info Clown79!!

 

I have the ESV B-ionic supplements, see how they do.

 

So you are saying that even if I have 450 CA I should dose CA anyway? How do I figure that out?

 

Cool, so I tested before the Water Change. According to my results it was anywhere between 6.7 & 6.9 dkH ... I tested the new batch of water and it read 12.6dkH.... about 15 hours after the WC the tank's dkH is anywhere between 7.0 & 7.6dkH.

Assuming the dkH is 7.2dkH, to raise ALK 1.8 to 9dkH the tank requires 1.4oz or 44.1ml of ALK. Now obviously my PH is going to rise, my pH read crapped out on me and I don't have a pH test, is it necessary as well? any recommendations?

 

since 1.4 oz will be required, I assume 15 days should suffice for the dosing. Does that mean I have to divide 1.4oz by 15 to get a daily dose?

 

I used this website's reef calculator to figure it out: http://reef.diesyst.com/flashcalc/flashcalc.html

 

[Clown79]

With esv you do equal amounts.

 

So if you do per say 5ml of alk, the same for ca.

Your ca won't increase because you are dosing alk with it. All it does is ensure that the Ca doesn't drop when you dose alk.

 

I would worry more about alk than ca as alk swings really effect corals.

 

My advice is, dose according to what your tank starts with after water change, rather than dosing to reach a number. Stability is more important than the number as long as its not a very low or very high alk. (Within the range)

 

If your tank is 7.7 after a waterchange, I'd dose daily to maintain that number rather than trying to get to 9. That makes things a lot more complicated. You will need to dose the tank after waterchanges  to get to 9 and then maintain that number.

[anizato]

Thanks Clown79

 

I have been testing almost daily since 3/1/2017 dosing 3ml of NoPox (keeping nitrates undetectable, still no phosphate checker). 

 

3/1 - CA 430 Alk ... MG 1520 (alk syringe numbers rubbed off, order new syringes)

3/2 - CA 440 Alk ... MG 1520

3/3 - CA 445 Alk ... MG 1540

3/4 - CA 430 Alk... MG 1560

3/5 - CA 445 Alk ... MG 1580

3/6 - CA 445 Alk ... MG 1560 

3/8 - CA 450 Alk ... MG 1580 (WATER CHANGE = Alk - 11.5dkH)

3/10 - CA 440 Alk 7.1

3/12 - CA 450 Alk #1=7.0dkH #2=7.2dkH #3=7.1dkH (new syringes arrive, tested alk 3 times)

3/13 - CA 440 Alk 7.0

3/14 - CA 430 Alk 6.9 MG 1600

 

Today is Water Change day. I will test the new water as well as the tank before WC and post the results so you guys may help me interpret them.

 

 

 

[anizato]

Water change was performed last night.

 

12 hours later we have these results

 

3/16 - CA 450 Alk 7.8 MG 1600

 

I will keep testing everyday until the next water change. I think that is when I will start dosing. 

 

Would you keep it at 7.8dkH or would you raise it?

 

What do you guys think of my MG ? Will that drop when Alk / CA have better numbers, or will it rise?

[anizato]

Another day, another test.

 

I got my Salifert PH and ALK tests in the mail yesterday! woot!

 

Alk Red Sea - #1 7.6dkH ; #2 7.5dkH

Alk Salifert - 7.7dkH

CA 440

MG 1600

pH 8.xx (the salifert test only has 8.0 as an option so who knows exactly what pH is)

 

All coral look fantastic. Still no Po4 test. Waiting on a few paydays to get the Phosphorous Hanna Checker. 

 

Still experiencing some green algae on the rocks. but it seems to be receding. Still dosing NOPOX 3ml a day. 

 

See you tomorrow!

[Clown79]

How do you like the red sea alk test?

I find the instructions weird and having difficulty determining my results.

 

I rarely test ph. If alk is fine your ph is too.

 

 

[burtbollinger]

i would buy a hanna alk checker.....one of the best things ive gotten in years

[RayWhisperer]

My Hanna alk tester was inconsistent. I liked the Hanna phos, not the alk, though. I've always been consistent with salifert tests.

[Clown79]

I've spent a fortune in testers. My motto now, finish the bottle until a new one is purchased.

 

I have had inconsistencies with all them. Theres no perfect.

 

Instructions for all can be an issue, so many ppl have questioned them and the results. Myself included.

 

 

[anizato]

So in order to get the most accurate results possible with the Red Sea Alk test, I test twice in a row. It is pretty simple. Rinse the vial with tank water. Fill it with 10ml of tankwater. Use your titration needle with the ALK (make sure to suck, push out hard - to remove micro bubbles), fill it finally. Swirl constantly adding drops slowly, it should change to blue soon, then followed by transparent, this is when I go drop-by-drop, then a drop or two later it turns sort of pinkish. THAT is where I stop the test and read the result.

 

The Salifert Alk Kit is actually pretty good as well, results are almost exactly as Red Sea Alk. These are the results since I have been testing with both Red Sea and Salifert Alk. 

As the pH, I have nothing to compare it to, but have 8.0pH throughout since I started testing everyday with it.

 

3/18 

 

ALK (Red Sea) - #1= 7.4dkH ; #2= 7.3 dkH

ALK (Salifert) - 7.4dkH

CA - 450

pH 8.0

 

3/19

 

ALK RS - 7.2dkH

ALK S - 7.3dkH

CA - 445

MG 1580

pH 8.0

 

3/20

 

ALK RS - 7.1dkH

ALK S - 7.1dkH

CA - 450

pH - 8.0

 

So we can observe the tank seems to be consuming approx 0.1dkH a day of ALK.

 

Please correct me if I am wrong:

 

Assuming that ALK will go back up to 7.8dkH on Water Change Day, ALK needs to be replenished 0.1dkH every single day, to keep it at 7.8dkH for all eternity? This is better for the coral than trying to raise ALK to 9dkH?

 

Also, MAGNESIUM seems to be on the rise... is this because of the ALK consumption? 

At the same time, why is my CALCIUM staying at 450? 

 

 

All that being said, I agree that the Hanna ALK Checker doesn't have a great reputation. However investing in the phosphorous Checker is a MUST. So this investment will be made pretty soon.

 

I am taking a trip with my wife to LA from tomorrow Tuesday till Saturday. If any of you can suggest any MUST SEE coral shops, that would be badass!  

 

 

I look forward to your input ... 

[anizato]

Hannah Phosphorous Checker on the way.

[anizato]

Measured again:

 

3/28/17

Alk RS 7dkH

Alk Sali 7dkH

CA 450

 

Water Change tomorrow. this will bring up the Alk to 7.8dkH, of course testing will be done to make sure, then I will begin dosing my ALK. According to the bottle, and the online calculator I found,  I need 1ml to raise 0.1dkH in 50gal with the B-ionic. So that should be my daily dose?

 

On another note, while we wait for the Phosphate checker to arrive, algae is turning green, but disappearing mostly, I can finally start to see the surface of my rocks again, they are starting to look clean!

The algae is firmly on the rock, it is turf-like, will this disappear in time with the reduction of Po4?

 

[hersheyb]

yeah, if that's what the bottle says than go with that.  Alk will always fluctuate more than calc.  Mag should not increase as alk gets consume.  If your ur alk jumps up to 7.8 after water change I suggest you keep you alk around 7.8, much more stable that way.

1 hour ago, anizato said:

Measured again:

 

3/28/17

Alk RS 7dkH

Alk Sali 7dkH

CA 450

 

Water Change tomorrow. this will bring up the Alk to 7.8dkH, of course testing will be done to make sure, then I will begin dosing my ALK. According to the bottle, and the online calculator I found,  I need 1ml to raise 0.1dkH in 50gal with the B-ionic. So that should be my daily dose?

 

On another note, while we wait for the Phosphate checker to arrive, algae is turning green, but disappearing mostly, I can finally start to see the surface of my rocks again, they are starting to look clean!

The algae is firmly on the rock, it is turf-like, will this disappear in time with the reduction of Po4?

 

 

[anizato]

As predicted! Water Change was done and ALK is back up to 7.8dkH as it was with the last water change.

I will begin dosing according to the ESV B-Ionic bottles to add 0.1dkH everyday of ALK and the equivalent CAL

 

Questions to anyone who knows :

 

1. Why did my MAG go up?

2. Did anyone notice that CAL was 450 during the entire test? Why?

3. Why is ALK the only thing consumed?

 

I remain dosing 3ml of NoPox everyday. Algae seems to be receding.

 

I finally dosed ALK last night for the first time after lights out. 

According to the calculator I needed 27.7ml to raise from 7.8 to 8dKh. 

I dosed the first 8ml and tested about an hour later at 7.8dKh... which I asume basically means the ALK that was consumed from the moment of water change to the 20 hours later when I dosed the 8ml of ALK this repleneshing to 7.8dKh. I expect tonight's to either do the same or increase it? If it doesn't, then that means 8ml of ALK a day is what my tank consumes? Yay or nay?

[anizato]

BUMP!