Lawlboom Posted February 23, 2017 Share Posted February 23, 2017 Why don't people do more frequent and larger partial water changes? 5-10% every two weeks seems way to little to me. I'm just wondering if there's another reason other than nitrate levels never really get 'high'. Link to comment
brandon429 Posted February 23, 2017 Share Posted February 23, 2017 I do the max, 100% water changes plus tap water rinsing of my whole sandbed all at once...then saltwater rinse, then reassemble all corals and rocks back on crystal white sand. it gets me the longest interval in between work to rip change it 100% or 200% back to back full flushing changes. that's about as mean as one can get, I agree no kid glove water changes for my reef its bulletproof due to fringe reef living. Link to comment
dandelion Posted February 23, 2017 Share Posted February 23, 2017 If the corals are doing great with only small infrequent water changes, then why bother? Link to comment
Lawlboom Posted February 23, 2017 Author Share Posted February 23, 2017 If the water change doesn't remove enough nitrate than is produced during the two week period isn't there a risk of nitrates getting out of control. Say: 10ppm nitrate changed 10% two weeks changed 10% if it doesn't bring the nitrates back down to 10 over time you lose out on the battle and could find yourself with an upsetting amount of nitrate. Link to comment
brandon429 Posted February 23, 2017 Share Posted February 23, 2017 to intercept sandbed waste is my only reason, that way no GHA ever ever creeps on my rock, and the system stays invader free preemptively not reactively as catch up. The rock is 100pct coralline soft ball. two hours later its this, for a decade now. its possible to have literally no algae for the life of a tank, no cyano, no diatoms, no valonia, all through that type of assertive reefing. Link to comment
holy carp Posted February 23, 2017 Share Posted February 23, 2017 11 minutes ago, brandon429 said: I do the max, 100% water changes plus tap water rinsing of my whole sandbed all at once...then saltwater rinse, then reassemble all corals and rocks back on crystal white sand. it gets me the longest interval in between work to rip change it 100% or 200% back to back full flushing changes. that's about as mean as one can get, I agree no kid glove water changes for my reef its bulletproof due to fringe reef living. You do this weekly? Link to comment
dandelion Posted February 23, 2017 Share Posted February 23, 2017 26 minutes ago, brandon429 said: to intercept sandbed waste is my only reason, that way no GHA ever ever creeps on my rock, and the system stays invader free preemptively not reactively as catch two hours later its this, for a decade now. its possible to have literally no algae for the life of a tank, no cyano, no diatoms, no valonia, all through that type of assertive reefing. I usually suck out part of the sand bed when I do water change in my larger tank. I pour away the water in the bucket, then rinse the sand under hot tap water several times, rinse with RO/DI water, and put back into the tank. 28 minutes ago, Lawlboom said: If the water change doesn't remove enough nitrate than is produced during the two week period isn't there a risk of nitrates getting out of control. Say: 10ppm nitrate changed 10% two weeks changed 10% if it doesn't bring the nitrates back down to 10 over time you lose out on the battle and could find yourself with an upsetting amount of nitrate. There are other ways of reducing nitrate. In the old days people use DSB. You can also use refugium, bio pellet reactor, nitrate removing media, super porous media in the sump that allows anaerobic bacteria to thrive.... etc. Link to comment
brandon429 Posted February 23, 2017 Share Posted February 23, 2017 no weekly its just the full drain and change no sandbed rinse Not needed that often, this holds seven mos ish at only a gallon, its the same work as if I changed half of it but I get the most export for my five minute run weekly That big sandbed blast is after serveral mos...a few weeks skipping the change, typical buildup in the sandbed etc. those are rarer but I got good vid of this most recent one. It will literally make a pico live forever given all hardware and user error luck. we can see the average lifespan for 1-3 gallon tanks is about 4 yrs on the web using more hands off approaches. most people nowadays aren't using a dsb anymore, the bare bottom approach makes detritus removal easy, you don't have to disassemble because its reachable. Larger tanks nowadays are doing preemptive bed cleaning like stirring it up and siphoning out top layers before the incursion, so they don't have to rip like this in catchup. I like to constantly demonstrate with my own risk and $$ how to control cycling of a reef tank so that confidence skyrockets and we gain total control over what the tank does. if I took time to stir my top layers more often then I could do less of those above. thanks for chiming in y'all a tiny and coral-packed pico is such a great demonstrator of this access because one mistake will kill it all, that's literally one gallon of dilution, not much ammonia would cause a cascade galore in that packed vase. being that assertive against waste is actually safer than partially cleaning a dirtier tank. Link to comment
pokerdobe Posted February 23, 2017 Share Posted February 23, 2017 56 minutes ago, Lawlboom said: If the water change doesn't remove enough nitrate than is produced during the two week period isn't there a risk of nitrates getting out of control. Say: 10ppm nitrate changed 10% two weeks changed 10% if it doesn't bring the nitrates back down to 10 over time you lose out on the battle and could find yourself with an upsetting amount of nitrate. Water changes are probably the most inefficient method of removing nitrates. Far better alternatives out today. Link to comment
brandon429 Posted February 23, 2017 Share Posted February 23, 2017 but not for a pico if there was, an older pico would exist using any other method. at least that sets the stage for a fun challenge for alt means, to drive the science of small tanks old picos that store waste anywhere get tossed in the cyano bin by month 48 heh its merely the physical access that makes it such a worth while routine (Cleaning out the waste not just siphoning the topwater off the top of it, agreed that's a continual pump scenario) we could avoid sandbed cleaning and use refugium, carbon dosing, ats, but none of them are needed if we clean from the bottom up! Link to comment
pokerdobe Posted February 23, 2017 Share Posted February 23, 2017 Just now, brandon429 said: but not for a pico if there was, an older pico would exist using any other method In the narrow realm of a pico, you're probably right. Link to comment
dandelion Posted February 24, 2017 Share Posted February 24, 2017 17 minutes ago, brandon429 said: we could avoid sandbed cleaning and use refugium, carbon dosing, ats, but none of them are needed if we clean from the bottom up! This statement reminds me of the book I read before I started my first saltwater aquarium. It's the one by Michael Paletta. He said the old way of using under-gravel filter traps a lot of detritus, and will warrant an annual breakdown of the tank for cleaning to ensure longevity. Link to comment
brandon429 Posted February 24, 2017 Share Posted February 24, 2017 I didn't know about that thank you for mentioning. The only coral book I own is the one from Eric Borneman... that takeaway came to me after all the picos that would age up to a few years then start giving major problems The rule of sandbed care in the 90s was Berlin Do not disturb Guaranteed nitrate reduction just because we added sand, though now we know that varies and selects for nitrate -production- more so I got so mad at losing picos, in 2006 my anger and dollars morphed into: Algae? I'll lift out the rock and torch it off with a grill lighter, then I'll knife scrape the area, then I'll hit it with 35% peroxide in the air for five minutes direct, on the stabbed clean surface. Sandbed gasses to make me hesitant to touch this crazy setup teetering on death? I'll never give the chance. I'll rip clean and force cleanliness, idleness gone. The vase will comply. They set up insta tanks at MACNA, why is that any different than me skip cycling to clean and take it apart? Being fed up on rules got me here...years of toil and cost if pico reefing could ever be deemed a toil. Old tank syndrome is defeated only an errant nerf or unapproved indoor soccer kick will do me in Link to comment
Lawlboom Posted February 24, 2017 Author Share Posted February 24, 2017 1 hour ago, pokerdobe said: Water changes are probably the most inefficient method of removing nitrates. Far better alternatives out today. I'm not sure if inefficient is the word doing a water change instantly removes nitrates. It's definitely the simplest way to do it. So I think I found the answer to my question and that is everyone seems to run all this extra equipment to make life a little easier. So all the carbon dosing and what not is how people get away with only changing 5 to 10% by weekly Link to comment
holy carp Posted February 24, 2017 Share Posted February 24, 2017 @brandon429 That said, I imagine that over time you've found the right corals that can tolerate the rigorous cleaning, time out of water, and potential parameter swings of your method. I think that's great, but won't work for everyone. Some people can allow their corals to self-select against their husbandry. Others will have to tailor their husbandry to their livestock. For most of us, it will fall somewhere in between. I've taken a page or two from brandon's 'book' about treating algae (in my case aggressively targeting valonia with great success), but I also can't manage such extreme water changes in my system. I do about 25-30% per week, though, which may be considered substantial. I have never had measurable nitrates because of the MarinePure block in the sump, but I do get phosphates. I manage those with phosguard more so than with water changes. But still, there must be other trace elements or waste products that I don't have the capability to test for, remove, or replace, so water changes seem to work for me in maintaining stability for the corals. When I skip them, corals remind me. I'd love to rely less on them, though... Link to comment
dandelion Posted February 24, 2017 Share Posted February 24, 2017 12 minutes ago, holy carp said: @brandon429 That said, I imagine that over time you've found the right corals that can tolerate the rigorous cleaning, time out of water, and potential parameter swings of your method. I think that's great, but won't work for everyone. Some people can allow their corals to self-select against their husbandry. Others will have to tailor their husbandry to their livestock. For most of us, it will fall somewhere in between. I've taken a page or two from brandon's 'book' about treating algae (in my case aggressively targeting valonia with great success), but I also can't manage such extreme water changes in my system. I do about 25-30% per week, though, which may be considered substantial. I have never had measurable nitrates because of the MarinePure block in the sump, but I do get phosphates. I manage those with phosguard more so than with water changes. But still, there must be other trace elements or waste products that I don't have the capability to test for, remove, or replace, so water changes seem to work for me in maintaining stability for the corals. When I skip them, corals remind me. I'd love to rely less on them, though... I must say sometimes I wonder if water change does more harm than good. I usually do mine every 10 days. I have tried skipping one or two water changes and my corals were happy as ever. And when I do it it becomes a mucus shit storm and everything looks pissed off for a day. Link to comment
gonebad395 Posted February 24, 2017 Share Posted February 24, 2017 29 gallon bio cube I vacume 1/4 sand bed per week and do a 5 gallon water change and corals are nothing but happy Link to comment
brandon429 Posted February 24, 2017 Share Posted February 24, 2017 HC Your whole system would tolerate the same it's just better to do preventative work vs rip cleaning work in larger tanks, stability is not affected. Your anemones and fish would be the sensitives... easy to work around though we collect take apart/skip cycle and reassembly work on the R2R sand rinse/move tank thread, no limit to how often you can part out and reassemble a tank it just takes varying degrees of water contact for sensitives All your sps and lps could take 15 mins in the air right now with no practice, live rock double. The risk in the strip down move is stirring up pent up waste... that's the double edged sword in being hands off permanently in design, the locus of risk isn't the drain or clean it's the store of proteins that are mid breakdown and not nitrified yet. tested for in any reef tank by grabbing a handful of sand/releasing it and seeing if it clouds... Cloudless is attainable~clouding is what the masses will reveal. My system is modular and easily parted w no coral damage but that is by design- coral density reduced to allow access-increase access to the ten year threshold Most larger systems are breakable comparatively, corals lock the rocks in place delicately Preventative maintenance to avoid sandbed sinking will be key in ripening those types of setups imo Link to comment
Clown79 Posted February 24, 2017 Share Posted February 24, 2017 I do 2g water changes weekly on my 15g and i vacuum my whole sand bed each week. When i have done larger waterchanges it has caused fluctuations in parameters. I personally prefer weekly waterchanges on my tanks. Link to comment
pokerdobe Posted February 24, 2017 Share Posted February 24, 2017 13 hours ago, Lawlboom said: I'm not sure if inefficient is the word doing a water change instantly removes nitrates. It's definitely the simplest way to do it. So I think I found the answer to my question and that is everyone seems to run all this extra equipment to make life a little easier. So all the carbon dosing and what not is how people get away with only changing 5 to 10% by weekly Going to disagree with you in the realm of anything from a medium to larger size tank. It might be simple in the sense that you are swapping out water, but if you're nitrate production is greater than your rate of removal, then you aren't really making a difference. For example, if you're tank produces 10 units of nitrate a day, then in 1 week, you have 70 units of nitrate. Assuming you do a generous water change of 50% per week, you've only removed 50 units of nitrates and by the time your next water change comes around, you're at 90 units of nitrate and so on. To counter your point about additives and equipment, other than the last couple of weeks when I was trying to get my aging female mandarin to eat by blasting food, my nitrates stay at about 5ppm steady with nothing but a skimmer and a 5% water change once per week. 10% if I skip a week. Link to comment
brandon429 Posted February 24, 2017 Share Posted February 24, 2017 Randy's article on nitrate in the reef tank supports that notion in larger tanks, that getting to the source is a better venture only because it will save work not that the changes are harmful. dirty sandbeds are so offensive lol, they cause nearly all our problems given enough time. There's a storage and non-release phase for them that can last a year or more in normal sized nanos that makes it seem it will always be smooth running that slow action paired with the typical hands off mode for live rocks, and once the aging nano gets a decently-seated invader on the rocks that sandbed fuel kicks in right about then and pow, invasion underway. That's the cycle for 90% of entrants into peroxide threads. Link to comment
TJ_Burton Posted February 24, 2017 Share Posted February 24, 2017 I've had great success running skimmerless doing weekly 25% water changes on my 20 gallon SPS reef that was filtered via an Eheim canister. I also advocate cleaning the sand bed when you do the water change (if you are not bare bottom). Link to comment
pokerdobe Posted February 24, 2017 Share Posted February 24, 2017 @brandon429 I agree, especially with the dirty sandbed. I vacuum my entire sandbed weekly and keep my best to keep it and my LR detritus free by blasting it every other day so my socks and skimmer can pick it up. Stirring up my sand usually does not release a fine detritus cloud at all, unless I've skipped a week or so. It's amazing how much can accumulate over 2 weeks. Having 3 leopards constantly digging into my sandbed also helps. Link to comment
Lawlboom Posted February 24, 2017 Author Share Posted February 24, 2017 4 hours ago, pokerdobe said: Going to disagree with you in the realm of anything from a medium to larger size tank. It might be simple in the sense that you are swapping out water, but if you're nitrate production is greater than your rate of removal, then you aren't really making a difference. For example, if you're tank produces 10 units of nitrate a day, then in 1 week, you have 70 units of nitrate. Assuming you do a generous water change of 50% per week, you've only removed 50 units of nitrates and by the time your next water change comes around, you're at 90 units of nitrate and so on. To counter your point about additives and equipment, other than the last couple of weeks when I was trying to get my aging female mandarin to eat by blasting food, my nitrates stay at about 5ppm steady with nothing but a skimmer and a 5% water change once per week. 10% if I skip a week. I'm on a fact finding mission here. You just repeated the same thing I did about being out competed with water changes. It's cool that your tank doesn't produce nitrates quickly, surely that's the goal for everyone. My goal was to find out how and why people do such little water changes and the responses from other posted have shown some light on it. Link to comment
Nano sapiens Posted March 1, 2017 Share Posted March 1, 2017 To answer your query directly, water changes (WC) for a reef tank are not typically used to remove nitrate in the water column on a permanent basis. For those system showing higher nitrates (why they do so at all is another topic), a WC will drop the level, but it typically rises back to it's former level in a few short days if other nitrate reduction means are not employed. How much water should be changed, and how often, is dependent on each system's individual characteristics. Such factors as the density and type of livestock, the amount of feeding, the aquarist's maintenance schedule, the type(s) of mechanical and chemical filtration (if present) and the maturity of the system all play a role. What many have observed is that large WCs, especially if the parameters and temperature are different from the display tank, can upset delicate reef organisms. Smaller, more frequent WCs are typically less tramatic for the organisms and the system as a whole, while still providing similar benefits. I run an old 12g that kind of straddles the fence between a pico and a larger size nano tank. I currently change just 5%/wk in this rather mature system. I also vacuum the sand bed, baste the live rock, remove any other pockets of detritus buildup and sometimes use a filter sock during the WC in order to maintain good conditions long term. Link to comment
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