Ich and QT advice

[Slayer33]

Hey, I noticed my clown had a few white spots on his back and a couple on his fins.. I assumed this was ich, so I looked at some options since I didn't have a QT tank. My biggest concern was to try to prevent it from spreading to the other fish in the tank... the clown was acting fine, no odd behavior or eating issues..

 

I was worried about getting my QT setup, I have a JBJ Nanocube6 in my basement so I decided to fill it up with new water and get it up and running 2 days ago... the person at my LFS said I didn't have to wait for the tank to cycle, just add something called "tank buster" to the water and test it.. So I did, everything was good except my ammonia was 1 color lever from 0. So I assumed this was good.. I transferred my clown to the QT tank last night and added cupramine. A few hours later I noticed my clown was swimming slightly on its side hovering at the top of the QT..

 

So now he doesn't look like he's doing as well as he was in the DT... I feared that when I got up this morning he'd be dead... but he's still at the top, hovering and swimming slightly on his side. Given at the times I checked on him it was 12:30am and 6:30am.. around the time they usually sleep so potentially this was ok behavior? I don't know.. I fear that I have made things worse by setting up the QT tank and transferring him so soon.. I plan to test the copper levels in the tank and change the water out (10%) daily...

 

Any thoughts?

[lkoechle]

Did you test the copper levels after you added the cupramine?  

 

Also, ich lives in your sand and on your rocks.  The only way to remove it is to remove all the fish in the tank and leave the display for fallow for 6 to 8 weeks. (the longer the better).  It sucks, but its the only to prevent re-infection.  Unfortunately, ich isn't contained to just being alive in the fish.  That's what makes it so important to prevent from getting in the tank in the first place.

[Slayer33]

2 minutes ago, lkoechle said:

Did you test the copper levels after you added the cupramine?  

 

Also, ich lives in your sand and on your rocks.  The only way to remove it is to remove all the fish in the tank and leave the display for fallow for 6 to 8 weeks. (the longer the better).  It sucks, but its the only to prevent re-infection.  Unfortunately, ich isn't contained to just being alive in the fish.  That's what makes it so important to prevent from getting in the tank in the first place.

I haven't, I didn't realize I needed a copper test kit til I read the instructions last night after adding the cupramine. I didn't over dose that's for sure, just followed the instructions. There's no way I can remove all the fish from my tank and put them into a 6 gallon.. So is my attempt at putting the one clown in QT a waste of time and potentially causing him to get worse??

 

Should I have just left him in my DT and waited it out and not medicated?

 

None of the other fish appeared to have been affected... but its still early I suppose..

[Clown79]

Unfortunately ich is still in your tank. 

 

All your fish can become susceptible to the parasite regardless if you treat 1.

 

As soon as you add the treated clown back, he can get ich again.

 

In order to irradicate ich completely, the tank must go fishless for 6-8 weeks. As long as there is a fish in there, there is  host for the parasite.

 

That being said, ich can be introduced to a tank at any time by anything and even a stressed out fish can get ich.

 

If there is ammonia present in your hospital tank, thats whats most likely causing the fish further stress. Copper must be measured and tested as its very hard on fish as well.

[Slayer33]

hmm.. so ich is something that sounds like is almost always present in a tank.. 2 months in a QT tank sounds crazy.. but whats to say my QT tank doesn't have ich... I know I am treating the fish in the QT but even if I get a new coral then there's a chance it returns..

 

Perhaps I should just leave my clown in the DT and hope it passes without any issues?

[dandelion]

41 minutes ago, Clown79 said:

Unfortunately ich is still in your tank. 

 

All your fish can become susceptible to the parasite regardless if you treat 1.

 

As soon as you add the treated clown back, he can get ich again.

 

In order to irradicate ich completely, the tank must go fishless for 6-8 weeks. As long as there is a fish in there, there is  host for the parasite.

 

That being said, ich can be introduced to a tank at any time by anything and even a stressed out fish can get ich.

 

If there is ammonia present in your hospital tank, thats whats most likely causing the fish further stress. Copper must be measured and tested as its very hard on fish as well.

 

Get ready to do daily water change. I suggest getting a seachem ammonia alert badge for easy monitoring of ammonia level.

 

DO NOT DOSE PRIME. Prime will reduce cupramine into a highly toxic form of copper and will kill your fish. Oh and don't put inverts in that tank anymore. Except perhaps deep cleaning the tank and then run carbon for a week or two. Copper sticks to everything in your tank.

 

i have never heard of not having to cycle at all except when you put fully live rocks/filter media into the tank. IMO your LFS did you a disservice.

[Slayer33]

2 hours ago, dandelion said:

 

Get ready to do daily water change. I suggest getting a seachem ammonia alert badge for easy monitoring of ammonia level.

 

DO NOT DOSE PRIME. Prime will reduce cupramine into a highly toxic form of copper and will kill your fish. Oh and don't put inverts in that tank anymore. Except perhaps deep cleaning the tank and then run carbon for a week or two. Copper sticks to everything in your tank.

 

i have never heard of not having to cycle at all except when you put fully live rocks/filter media into the tank. IMO your LFS did you a disservice.

What do you mean by not dosing PRIME?

 

The only way to control the ammonia is to do the daily water change correct? Using ammonia reducing meds will only make things worse correct?

[Astinus]

From what little I know, prime encapsulates the ammonia, making it "safe"...it does not eliminate the ammonia, just detoxifies it?

Don't take my word on it though....I am nowhere near educated enough to explain it.

Prime does help though...It is best to do water changes....absolutely. 

[dandelion]

3 hours ago, Astinus said:

From what little I know, prime encapsulates the ammonia, making it "safe"...it does not eliminate the ammonia, just detoxifies it?

Don't take my word on it though....I am nowhere near educated enough to explain it.

Prime does help though...It is best to do water changes....absolutely. 

In short, Seachem Prime works by reducing dissolved chlorine and chloramine in treated water to turn them into benign chemicals that do not harm livestock. When mixed with cupramine (copper), it will turn the 2+ copper ion (Cu2+) into 1+ copper ion (Cu+). Cu+ is highly toxic.

 

So Prime combined with Cupramine = dead fish. The two ways to control ammonia is by having a fully cycled tank or frequent large water change.

[Astinus]

@dandelion TY for explaining that to me...and others.

[fishfreak0114]

Bummer that you have ich. I'm currently dealing with ich.  If you want to cure you're fish, you'll have to remove all of them from your display tank and leave it fallow for 8 weeks. It sucks. And treat the fish. I used tank transfer method, which I find effective and fairly low stress on the fish.  Quick action is best, before it has time get serious and cover all your fish. 

[CronicReefer]

Was this clown a newly added fish or has it been in your tank for a long while? I don't think we have established that your fish has ich either. Transferring the fish to a fresh QT and doing water changes everyday along with dosing copper seems like a lot of stress to be putting on a fish we are trying to "make better". Many times, a well fed fish with the proper diet will help them overcome an illness quicker, easier, more successfully than a QT regime.

[Slayer33]

 

I had 2 clowns as my first fish after the CUC was added.. about 2 months now..

 

I agree that possibly switching over to the QT wasn't the best idea since he was happy, eating well and showed no signs of being ill. But he is doing well now in the QT, I got the ammonia badge and the levels are "safe". I tested the copper and it was between 0.10 and 0.25, I'd say closer to 0.10 though.

 

He is swimming properly now and seems to be doing ok.. As for whether or not its ich, I'm pretty sure it is.. when I googled ICH, the images I saw were identical, except he doesn't have it as bad.. maybe 10 spots total...

[Clown79]

If you used water from your display then yes, your qt will most likely have ich but if you are treating with medication it will kill it.

 

There is always the chsnce of ich entering a tank via inverts, corals, etc.

 

Unfortunately the only way to irradicate ich is to take all fish out of your display, treat them in the qt and leave the tank fishless for 8 weeks.

[Slayer33]

Ok, well its been a week now and the Ich seems to have disappeared from my clown in my QT. I've been treating with Cupramine and added Garlic Oil to his food. No more white spots as of last night (6 days from 1st sign of Ich).

 

I didn't transfer my other 2 fish, I've been watching them closely and have not noticed any signs of Ich.

 

I've changed the water 3x in the QT (25% each time). The ammonia levels are not high at all... at least according to the ammonia badge. I'll test with my other kit tonight. The copper levels are good as well.

 

I plan to leave the clown in the QT for 14 days as recommended by the meds and evaluate him at that time..

 

I get different opinions on Ich treatment.. a few have balked at removing all fish and leaving the tank fallow for 6-8 weeks.. perhaps it depends on how bad it is? Obviously I don't want to rush this process as I don't want him to get Ich again if I put him back into the DT.

 

I wouldn't have an issue taking the second clown out of the tank.. its my Yellow Watchman Goby that I would have a very difficult time getting out.. not to mention how it'll destroy my rock/coral setup.

[lkoechle]

5 minutes ago, Slayer33 said:

Ok, well its been a week now and the Ich seems to have disappeared from my clown in my QT. I've been treating with Cupramine and added Garlic Oil to his food. No more white spots as of last night (6 days from 1st sign of Ich).

 

I didn't transfer my other 2 fish, I've been watching them closely and have not noticed any signs of Ich.

 

I've changed the water 3x in the QT (25% each time). The ammonia levels are not high at all... at least according to the ammonia badge. I'll test with my other kit tonight. The copper levels are good as well.

 

I plan to leave the clown in the QT for 14 days as recommended by the meds and evaluate him at that time..

 

I get different opinions on Ich treatment.. a few have balked at removing all fish and leaving the tank fallow for 6-8 weeks.. perhaps it depends on how bad it is? Obviously I don't want to rush this process as I don't want him to get Ich again if I put him back into the DT.

 

I wouldn't have an issue taking the second clown out of the tank.. its my Yellow Watchman Goby that I would have a very difficult time getting out.. not to mention how it'll destroy my rock/coral setup.

I think the balking comes from the difficulty and stress. But you cant fully erradicate ich without removing all the fish.  Unless you do that, any time your fish's immune system weaken, the ich will take hold again.  If you only have hardy fish than you can gamble, but if you ever put in a sensitive species (for example tangs are notorious for ich) it will probably get ich and die. (and I QTed, had a fallow tank and everything and 3 tangs still got ich and died.  I also had 3 other fish die from the first wave of ich during this outbreak due to me stupidly introducing a tang from a store I trusted)

[Slayer33]

8 minutes ago, lkoechle said:

I think the balking comes from the difficulty and stress. But you cant fully erradicate ich without removing all the fish.  Unless you do that, any time your fish's immune system weaken, the ich will take hold again.  If you only have hardy fish than you can gamble, but if you ever put in a sensitive species (for example tangs are notorious for ich) it will probably get ich and die. (and I QTed, had a fallow tank and everything and 3 tangs still got ich and died.  I also had 3 other fish die from the first wave of ich during this outbreak due to me stupidly introducing a tang from a store I trusted)

 

Perhaps you're right.. I don't have tangs.. just 2 clowns and a YWM goby.. I think these are hardy species.. but I guess I'll have to figure something out

[Clown79]

He is right. The balking is the difficulty thats it.

Ich can present itself during bad water quality, times of stress etc if not irradicated from tank. 

 

Ich is present even when you don't see it. The life cycle of the parasite when you see the white spots is a very short period, i believe 4 days. 

[lkoechle]

3 minutes ago, Clown79 said:

He is right. The balking is the difficulty thats it.

Ich can present itself during bad water quality, times of stress etc if not irradicated from tank. 

 

Ich is present even when you don't see it. The life cycle of the parasite when you see the white spots is a very short period, i believe 4 days. 

She* I am a lady.

[Kyl]

I'm not sure on the allowance of this, but I would suggest you give some of the treatment threads on reef2reef a read over, specifically:

 

http://www.reef2reef.com/threads/ich-cryptocaryon-irritans.191226/

http://www.reef2reef.com/threads/copper-treatment.193343/

 

It's by far the best collection of treatment advice I've come across in the hobby, and no 'miracle' reef-safe cure peddling.

 

 

 

[Clown79]

Sorry

I'm a lady too

[dandelion]

I had a dilemma too when I found a clownfish with what seems like ich spots on it in my DT a while back. Weighing the risks and benefits of QT and treating all fish and running the tank fishless, I ended up decided against it. I religiously quarantine any new fish, so I could have made a mistake of ich getting into my tank. Moreover all my other inhabitants are simply too happy to be bothered. I decided I would do quarantine and run fishless only when I see more fish fall ill. The risk of stressing them out and killing them exceeds the benefit of knowing my tank is ich-free until the next time I put corals/snails/whatever inside.

[Asureef]

I use copper as a last resort.  I prefer Paraguard, as it's easier on the fish and doesn't nuke the QT tank of all microbes.  The only downside is, it needs to be dosed periodically.  

 

[Clown79]

6 hours ago, dandelion said:

I had a dilemma too when I found a clownfish with what seems like ich spots on it in my DT a while back. Weighing the risks and benefits of QT and treating all fish and running the tank fishless, I ended up decided against it. I religiously quarantine any new fish, so I could have made a mistake of ich getting into my tank. Moreover all my other inhabitants are simply too happy to be bothered. I decided I would do quarantine and run fishless only when I see more fish fall ill. The risk of stressing them out and killing them exceeds the benefit of knowing my tank is ich-free until the next time I put corals/snails/whatever inside.

I have a clown right now that possibly has ich.

 

I'm doing the same as you because ich unfortunately can be brought into the dt in so many ways its very hard to prevent. 

 

Trying to catch my goby is impossible.

The added stress on them is even worse.

 

You can't see ich on corals, snails, hermits, etc. That would mean qt'ing these for 8 weeks in a fishless tank, thats the only way to prevent it. 

 

I wish they made meds that were safe for dt!

[lkoechle]

29 minutes ago, Clown79 said:

I have a clown right now that possibly has ich.

 

I'm doing the same as you because ich unfortunately can be brought into the dt in so many ways its very hard to prevent. 

 

Trying to catch my goby is impossible.

The added stress on them is even worse.

 

You can't see ich on corals, snails, hermits, etc. That would mean qt'ing these for 8 weeks in a fishless tank, thats the only way to prevent it. 

 

I wish they made meds that were safe for dt!

I very badly want a blonde naso in my imaginaty big tank, but tangs are so susceptible to ich.  I have no idea how I would prevent a tang from getting it.  clearly, I have yet to be successful and I can't stand losing fish.  

 

It blows.  I wish corals and inverts could withstand hypo salinity.   That would be the easiest way (of the ways we know) to handle ich for sure....