Roger's SPS 75G - NEW FTS PG 36

[A.m.P]

This probably doesn't help much but it's from Randy Holmes-Farley in an older thread on this subject.

"These are the things that can lead to apparent alkallinty rises:

Test error,
top off with tap water,
decline in nitrate,
dosing of nitrate,
dissolution of new artificial live rock
supplements or foods that contain alkalinity even if you do not realize it
dissolution of live rock or sand due to very low tank water pH
dissolution of live rock or sand due to very low pH inside of them due to degradation of organics"

[TheKleinReef]

19 hours ago, A.m.P said:

This probably doesn't help much but it's from Randy Holmes-Farley in an older thread on this subject.

"These are the things that can lead to apparent alkallinty rises:

Test error,
top off with tap water,
decline in nitrate,
dosing of nitrate,
dissolution of new artificial live rock
supplements or foods that contain alkalinity even if you do not realize it
dissolution of live rock or sand due to very low tank water pH
dissolution of live rock or sand due to very low pH inside of them due to degradation of organics"

i did start dosing nitrate…

 

i read a bit about it but once I started running into problems I turned it off. it’s been off for 3.5 weeks now. Maybe the effects linger? I need to look into that more. 

[TheKleinReef]

Welp. Here it is. 
from RHF: 

 

“Consumption of nitrate in a reef tank boosts alk. If the nitrate came from foods (from organics to ammonia to nitrate) that process depleted alk and the consumption and reuse adds back the exact amount lost. So the net effect is no alk change.

But if you add supplemental nitrate, you missed that first depletion step and got only the second part where alk was added.”

[DevilDuck]

Wow, that's a head scratcher of a problem. One would not normally think that supplementing Nitrate will cause Alk to also rise.

 

[TheKleinReef]

3 hours ago, DevilDuck said:

Wow, that's a head scratcher of a problem. One would not normally think that supplementing Nitrate will cause Alk to also rise.

 

I’m not quite sure how it works once I figure it out I’ll share. 
 

Without 100% I think It must have something to do with the metabolic processes in the nitrogen cycle. Carbonate must be taken in early in the cycle then released as a bi product towards the end of the cycle. Regardless I’m done dosing nitrate for now. 

[ninjamyst]

Still baffles me that a slight alk swing will cause this much damage.  My alk swings all the time from 5 to 8 to 6 to 7 etc.  

[A.m.P]

37 minutes ago, TheKleinReef said:

I’m not quite sure how it works once I figure it out I’ll share. 
 

Without 100% I think It must have something to do with the metabolic processes in the nitrogen cycle. Carbonate must be taken in early in the cycle then released as a bi product towards the end of the cycle. Regardless I’m done dosing nitrate for now. 

It has been a long time, but I think this is more or less similar in concept to what's going on. 

"If NO3−produced by nitrification is taken up and assimilated into biomass, the H+ produced from mineralization plus nitrification is consumed and the acidity of the system remains balanced. Likewise, if soil [...added] NO3− is denitrified, acidity is consumed."
https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/agricultural-and-biological-sciences/nitrifying-bacteria
https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/earth-and-planetary-sciences/mineralization

13 minutes ago, ninjamyst said:

Still baffles me that a slight alk swing will cause this much damage.  My alk swings all the time from 5 to 8 to 6 to 7 etc.  

Mine does as well, I think this may have been the nightmare scenario of an ALK swing with low N03/P04 and high PAR.

[TheKleinReef]

2 hours ago, A.m.P said:

Mine does as well, I think this may have been the nightmare scenario of an ALK swing with low N03/P04 and high PAR

I think so too. Except everyone tells me my radions are set too low 😂

[pokerdobe]

4 hours ago, A.m.P said:

low N03/P04

I'm not scientific by any means, but that's what I would pin it on. 

 

My tank is the furthest thing from alk stable and it tends to weather through most of the swings fine. The only time I tend to run into issues is when PO4 hits close to 0. 

[TheKleinReef]

9 hours ago, pokerdobe said:

I'm not scientific by any means, but that's what I would pin it on. 

 

My tank is the furthest thing from alk stable and it tends to weather through most of the swings fine. The only time I tend to run into issues is when PO4 hits close to 0. 

I agree. It was <0.03 for a very long time. I did manage to get it a little higher now I just gotta maintain it. 

[TheKleinReef]

Did my first 5G waterchange with the new salt. I don't think it was the TM that caused the issue but it's hard to find right now with the big turkey scandal and I needed salt anyways. My one gripe with this salt is holy moly the bucket is hard to open....

[TheKleinReef]

I think what will die has died already. 
things just look pisssssssed right now. Hoping it’ll all stabilize soon. February was a rough month for this tank. Need to do some cleanup and maintenance today before I snap a pic of the damage. 

[TheKleinReef]

 

three weeks no dosing 65g in 7.3 waterchanges and alk is still going up. No nitrate dosed in 2 weeks. I’m lost. I really have no idea what’s happening. 

[ninjamyst]

Double check with another alk test kit.  I don't understand how this is possible....

[TheKleinReef]

12 hours ago, ninjamyst said:

Double check with another alk test kit.  I don't understand how this is possible....

8.8 on Red Sea. 

[TheKleinReef]

I don’t think this is a nitrate thing. 
 

i think I had a bad batch of TM pro. 
stuff is still dying. 
 

this is painful. 

[A.m.P]

Damn, maybe see if an LFS has IO or something pre-mixed and get a friend or a clerk to help you do an emergency 75-100% WC? 

[TheKleinReef]

11 minutes ago, A.m.P said:

Damn, maybe see if an LFS has IO or something pre-mixed and get a friend or a clerk to help you do an emergency 75-100% WC? 

Don’t have a LFS. 

I could do a huge water change with the new salt but that seems risky. 

[A.m.P]

I'm not quite the one to ask about or assess that risk myself, if something in the water is off I usually try to change everything out, like some of the members here do with their nanos or jars.
The parameters don't match and that could be stressful, can't guarantee the health of anything or everything, but most coral have no problem adjusting from a store or retailer to different params in our tanks without acclimation and you can dose nitrate/phosphate into the water to ensure there are still nutrients.

That all said, I'm not like Mitten, Ninja, or Poker, my tank and sps scrape by with slow growth and sub-par color so I'm not really the best one to give advice outside bookish nonsense.

[TheKleinReef]

I’ll just do some 5g waterchanges and hope for the best. Only 6 sps left. 

[ninjamyst]

At this point you may as well do a rip clean...

[Murphs_Reef]

I had this problem with all of the big 3.. to this day I don't really know what happened but fast forward a few months and my alk has been super glued to 9.3, CA to 450 and mg to 1410 without dosing, with a bunch of LPS and coralline.. and with my testing confirmed by another source.. 

 

 

 

[TheKleinReef]

Ordered a ICP test. 
dunno what else to do. This crushed me. 

[Reefkid88]

I haven't checked in in awhile but wow this is terrible. I am sorry to see this happening Klein. 

[TheKleinReef]

1 hour ago, Reefkid88 said:

I haven't checked in in awhile but wow this is terrible. I am sorry to see this happening Klein. 

 

yeah this tank was doing really well for a long time, then poof.

I'm seriously debating on tearing it all the way down and not starting it again.