Mitten_reef’s IM30L

[DreC80]

12 minutes ago, mitten_reef said:

it's a myth started by one individual on here that you can't keep moderate-alk with high-alk salt. i got tired of discussing the concept of dilution and concentration that I gave up, after all there are many ways to skin a cat.  but now it became parrotted by almost everyone on this site, but you'll never see me jump on that bandwagon.  it's simple chemistry at the end of the day.  with 10-15% wc every 2-3 weeks, most tanks' alkalinity won't be affected if the tank is stable and steady in the 7-7.5 range.  I used RSCP for years and my alk was always under 8 with 10-15% wc back then.  I'm actually in the progress of moving back to RSCP wc, either in whole or at least 50%, just to improve my overall trace element balance and availability.  I'll keep a stash of blue bucket for emergency, when I need more than 20-25% wc.  

falling alk, as long as it doesn't drop precipitously below 6.5 (this number is solely my opinion), is WAY less harmful than spiking alk.  that's why I also asked for your dosing method, how much, and how often.  

 

just because you're doing wc with 10dkh, your entire system won't rise to that level right afterward.   again, see my point #1.  

is it possible that you're dosing too much than the tank needs?   I acknowledge that RSCP wc will contribute to the alk rising over time if you choose to keep alk in that 7-8 range, but it'd be weeks/months.  

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.

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I'm just not subscribing to the now-popular opinion that your tank needs to be where your salt is, or that your salt drives your tank's alk target.   there are many factors that made it work for me though; wc %, how often, and coral growth are definitely important pieces of that puzzle.   

 

Also, there are many things you have to learn truly through direct experience with your own tank when it comes to its alkalinity consumption.  alk management is also very hard to pick up on what other said and try to mimic right out the gate.  it took me a few years of following many SPS tank threads to come up with my own conclusion.  unfortunately, this place (NR) is slowly losing (had lost already?) its sps knowledge base of the past and not many new ones had popped up beyond the handful of individuals that interact on my thank thread here 😞.    

 

P.S. thanks to all acro-heads and sps fans, you know who you are, that had been regularly stopping by to share thoughts and discussions.

 

I'm with ya.  I used Reef Crystals for a long time on the Nuvo and ran my alk at 8 or less.

[DSFIRSTSLTWATER]

I just picked up a couple of my first acros yesterday. Kinda testers you know..

[DSFIRSTSLTWATER]

I did learn something from you guys just now though. I didn't know that dosing can up your salinity. Thank you 🤗

[ECLS Reefer]

23 minutes ago, mitten_reef said:

it's a myth started by one individual on here that you can't keep moderate-alk with high-alk salt. i got tired of discussing the concept of dilution and concentration that I gave up, after all there are many ways to skin a cat.  but now it became parrotted by almost everyone on this site, but you'll never see me jump on that bandwagon.  it's simple chemistry at the end of the day.  with 10-15% wc every 2-3 weeks, most tanks' alkalinity won't be affected if the tank is stable and steady in the 7-7.5 range.  I used RSCP for years and my alk was always under 8 with 10-15% wc back then.  I'm actually in the progress of moving back to RSCP wc, either in whole or at least 50%, just to improve my overall trace element balance and availability.  I'll keep a stash of blue bucket for emergency, when I need more than 20-25% wc.  

falling alk, as long as it doesn't drop precipitously below 6.5 (this number is solely my opinion), is WAY less harmful than spiking alk.  that's why I also asked for your dosing method, how much, and how often.  

 

just because you're doing wc with 10dkh, your entire system won't rise to that level right afterward.   again, see my point #1.  

is it possible that you're dosing too much than the tank needs?   I acknowledge that RSCP wc will contribute to the alk rising over time if you choose to keep alk in that 7-8 range, but it'd be weeks/months.  

.

.

.

I'm just not subscribing to the now-popular opinion that your tank needs to be where your salt is, or that your salt drives your tank's alk target.   there are many factors that made it work for me though; wc %, how often, and coral growth are definitely important pieces of that puzzle.   

 

Also, there are many things you have to learn truly through direct experience with your own tank when it comes to its alkalinity consumption.  alk management is also very hard to pick up on what other said and try to mimic right out the gate.  it took me a few years of following many SPS tank threads to come up with my own conclusion.  unfortunately, this place (NR) is slowly losing (had lost already?) its sps knowledge base of the past and not many new ones had popped up beyond the handful of individuals that interact on my thank thread here 😞.    

 

P.S. thanks to all acro-heads and sps fans, you know who you are, that had been regularly stopping by to share thoughts and discussions.

 

So many questions 😱

I dose trace one a week on Wednesday. MB7 every 4 days. Strontium every week usually Thursday. 

My dosing schedule for two part, mag and iodide:

 

RF 2- 4x /day

         09, 15, 21, 03

         1, 1, 1, 1

Io- 2x/ day every other day

      1200, 0000

       1, 1

Mag- 2x /day every 2 days

0905, 2105,

         1, 1

RF 1- 4x /day

          0910, 1510, 2110, 0310

          1, 1, 1, 1

Looking back at an actual graph that doesn’t lie like my memory, it shows that KH, and calcium only really stabilized for the last month. Before that would fluctuate up or down a whole dkh. That was before I got all the sps frags though. I struggle with getting mag in “acceptable” range because it always wants to hang out at 1600. Iodide is dosed for coralline growth. 
 

A lot of the reason I let it stay at 10 is because chasing it and waiting for it to pick a number seemed to result in swings. This last month it seems like 10 is the magic number for the tank... since it has stayed dead on at that number I’ve just happily accepted it rather than try to keep dropping it and then chasing it more. And I’m not skilled enough to look at the tank and say as if looking into my crystal ball... today the tank wants x y or z. Or that coral is slightly brown— I can barely see past the heavy blues from my light so I’m sure some day I’ll go blind. Maybe someday I’ll be able to look at it and be able to say yeah this or that is off, but for now I rely on weekly tests or as needed tests. 
 

At any rate, I hear people say drop the dkh but the thought makes me nervous because it’s finally achieved a stable level. I may y’all a good game but I’m really a chicken when it comes to changing stuff that important.

[DSFIRSTSLTWATER]

2 minutes ago, Dirté Sanchez said:

So many questions 😱

I dose trace one a week on Wednesday. MB7 every 4 days. Strontium every week usually Thursday. 

My dosing schedule for two part, mag and iodide:

 

RF 2- 4x /day

         09, 15, 21, 03

         1, 1, 1, 1

Io- 2x/ day every other day

      1200, 0000

       1, 1

Mag- 2x /day every 2 days

0905, 2105,

         1, 1

RF 1- 4x /day

          0910, 1510, 2110, 0310

          1, 1, 1, 1

Looking back at an actual graph that doesn’t lie like my memory, it shows that KH, and calcium only really stabilized for the last month. Before that would fluctuate up or down a whole dkh. That was before I got all the sps frags though. I struggle with getting mag in “acceptable” range because it always wants to hang out at 1600. Iodide is dosed for coralline growth. 
 

A lot of the reason I let it stay at 10 is because chasing it and waiting for it to pick a number seemed to result in swings. This last month it seems like 10 is the magic number for the tank... since it has stayed dead on at that number I’ve just happily accepted it rather than try to keep dropping it and then chasing it more. And I’m not skilled enough to look at the tank and say as if looking into my crystal ball... today the tank wants x y or z. Or that coral is slightly brown— I can barely see past the heavy blues from my light so I’m sure some day I’ll go blind. Maybe someday I’ll be able to look at it and be able to say yeah this or that is off, but for now I rely on weekly tests or as needed tests. 
 

At any rate, I hear people say drop the dkh but the thought makes me nervous because it’s finally achieved a stable level. I may y’all a good game but I’m really a chicken when it comes to changing stuff that important.

You will definitely know when it's brown. I found out the hard way. Good news is the brown out is easier to fix then bleaching. It just takes sooo much longer to come back. I just updated my journal with what I've been doing to combat it. Mitten helped me a ton with it though so I give him all the credit 🤗

[DSFIRSTSLTWATER]

It's funny, with the digis browned out one still grew. It has a knife point growing out of the side of it lol.

[mitten_reef]

32 minutes ago, DSFIRSTSLTWATER said:

How much of a swing either way is dramatic? Like I've always been under the impression that .5 either way is horrible. Am I wrong with that thinking? Do you have more wriggle room? Like say 1 dkh either way?

I wouldn't consider a shift of 0.5 dKh dramatic, 1 dKh may be a bit more problematic.  BUT it is all relative to where you started.  Say, you're at 7.5, then +/- 0.5 gives you 7 and 8, even at +/- 1, you'd still be at 6.5-8.5.  If you're at 8, +/- 1, it gets you 7 or 9, now that gets to the iffy territory on the high side.  

 

I believe in 0.5 +/- wiggle room, sounds like @Cannedfish had similar idea on the last page - again, remember, your starting point is what really determines how much wiggle room you have.

 

ALSO the time factor, how long does it take for the "swing" to occur should also be taken into consideration. No one ever really defines these terms, swing, spike, etc.   A swing over a course of a day will be more likely to cause problems than over the course of a week.  

[DSFIRSTSLTWATER]

2 minutes ago, mitten_reef said:

I wouldn't consider a shift of 0.5 dKh dramatic, 1 dKh may be a bit more problematic.  BUT it is all relative to where you started.  Say, you're at 7.5, then +/- 0.5 gives you 7 and 8, even at +/- 1, you'd still be at 6.5-8.5.  If you're at 8, +/- 1, it gets you 7 or 9, now that gets to the iffy territory on the high side.  

 

I believe in 0.5 +/- wiggle room, sounds like @Cannedfish had similar idea on the last page - again, remember, your starting point is what really determines how much wiggle room you have.

 

ALSO the time factor, how long does it take for the "swing" to occur should also be taken into consideration. No one ever really defines these terms, swing, spike, etc.   A swing over a course of a day will be more likely to cause problems than over the course of a week.  

Wow that makes a ton of sense. You're right, nobody really defines a swing well. Thank you 🤗

[Cannedfish]

15 minutes ago, mitten_reef said:

I wouldn't consider a shift of 0.5 dKh dramatic, 1 dKh may be a bit more problematic.  BUT it is all relative to where you started.  Say, you're at 7.5, then +/- 0.5 gives you 7 and 8, even at +/- 1, you'd still be at 6.5-8.5.  If you're at 8, +/- 1, it gets you 7 or 9, now that gets to the iffy territory on the high side.  

 

I believe in 0.5 +/- wiggle room, sounds like @Cannedfish had similar idea on the last page - again, remember, your starting point is what really determines how much wiggle room you have.

 

ALSO the time factor, how long does it take for the "swing" to occur should also be taken into consideration. No one ever really defines these terms, swing, spike, etc.   A swing over a course of a day will be more likely to cause problems than over the course of a week.  

One other nugget for thought. This affect also gets amplified when your dosing levels increase. When my tank was rolling before the crash it was consuming something like 3.0-4.0 dkh of alk a day, therefore if something happened (say, ran out of dosing fluid or severely trimmed the birdsnest) this could lead to huge fluctuations in a very short time. So all the wiggle room you can get helps. This is exactly what caused my crash. I did a blackout to try to get rid of dinos and didn’t adjust my dosing accordingly, because the SPS weren’t consuming alk, but I was still dosing the alk shot up from 7.5 to 16 in 48 hours. Despite killing 99% of my SPS, one acro and a tiny amount of birdsnest lives through it and about 75% of my LPS made it. 

[mitten_reef]

20 minutes ago, Dirté Sanchez said:

And I’m not skilled enough to look at the tank and say as if looking into my crystal ball... today the tank wants x y or z. Or that coral is slightly brown— I can barely see past the heavy blues from my light so I’m sure some day I’ll go blind. Maybe someday I’ll be able to look at it and be able to say yeah this or that is off, but for now I rely on weekly tests or as needed tests. 

this is where it really will take a lot of time to learn about your corals - the ones in your tank not anyone else's. and you're gonna lose some in the process, it's to be expected.  it's not a big deal that you can't tell how they are now, months from now you'll start to have it figured out (especially if you test as much as you say). 

^ that goes to you too @DSFIRSTSLTWATER and maybe @FISHnChix. 

 

       

[DreC80]

34 minutes ago, Dirté Sanchez said:

So many questions 😱

I dose trace one a week on Wednesday. MB7 every 4 days. Strontium every week usually Thursday. 

My dosing schedule for two part, mag and iodide:

 

RF 2- 4x /day

         09, 15, 21, 03

         1, 1, 1, 1

Io- 2x/ day every other day

      1200, 0000

       1, 1

Mag- 2x /day every 2 days

0905, 2105,

         1, 1

RF 1- 4x /day

          0910, 1510, 2110, 0310

          1, 1, 1, 1

Looking back at an actual graph that doesn’t lie like my memory, it shows that KH, and calcium only really stabilized for the last month. Before that would fluctuate up or down a whole dkh. That was before I got all the sps frags though. I struggle with getting mag in “acceptable” range because it always wants to hang out at 1600. Iodide is dosed for coralline growth. 
 

A lot of the reason I let it stay at 10 is because chasing it and waiting for it to pick a number seemed to result in swings. This last month it seems like 10 is the magic number for the tank... since it has stayed dead on at that number I’ve just happily accepted it rather than try to keep dropping it and then chasing it more. And I’m not skilled enough to look at the tank and say as if looking into my crystal ball... today the tank wants x y or z. Or that coral is slightly brown— I can barely see past the heavy blues from my light so I’m sure some day I’ll go blind. Maybe someday I’ll be able to look at it and be able to say yeah this or that is off, but for now I rely on weekly tests or as needed tests. 
 

At any rate, I hear people say drop the dkh but the thought makes me nervous because it’s finally achieved a stable level. I may y’all a good game but I’m really a chicken when it comes to changing stuff that important.

@mitten_reef sorry for hijacking your thread.  Is there an SPS thread on NR?  Would be cool to have one.  I'm no expert but have been keeping SPS since 2005 and have some knowledge.

 

 @Dirté Sanchez why dose mag if it's constantly elevated?  My guess is your salt will keep it in the right range.  I would stop dosing and let it drop to 1300-1400.  Depending on the two part you use, you may not need to dose trace elements or strontium or iodide.  ESV has trace elements in it...not sure if you use that.  I would only dose those if an ICP test said to and I would only dose what was specifically low.  The more variables we throw at the tank, the harder it is to figure out what went wrong.  I say went because SPS corals generally show the effects of something bad two to three weeks later...unless it's something drastic.

[mitten_reef]

5 minutes ago, DreC80 said:

Is there an SPS thread on NR?  Would be cool to have one.  I'm no expert but have been keeping SPS since 2005 and have some knowledge.

there probably was one at some point, but not since I've been on NR.  for all of my time on here, people just congregated in SPS tank threads to discuss various issues and shared insights.  @markalot has a very long journal history on his 150.  obviously @teenyreef's multiple tanks.  I used to hang in @HarryPotter 350 all the time.  the old metrokat's tank, not current one..., but she's been less active on here the last couple of years.  urbaneks - that's the primo gold, look up "urbaneks 250", better yet, here (yes I got this thread bookmarked).  

 

I don't mind if you guys just wanna hang in here 😛, everyone is welcome to join in.  I can't imagine how to manage an sps-topic thread to accommodate all levels of experience, but it won't hurt if you wanna give it a shot.  2005?  I joined NR in 2016, that's when I purchased my first acro, just take a look at my first page 😄, kept a nano since 2012.  

 

 

[FISHnChix]

35 minutes ago, mitten_reef said:

this is where it really will take a lot of time to learn about your corals - the ones in your tank not anyone else's. and you're gonna lose some in the process, it's to be expected.  it's not a big deal that you can't tell how they are now, months from now you'll start to have it figured out (especially if you test as much as you say). 

^ that goes to you too @DSFIRSTSLTWATER and maybe @FISHnChix. 

 

       

Yea I know what your saying. I can look in my tank and be like yep somethings off.. normally it's something easy to fix. Although one time I had no idea what was going on and stuff was crashing hard and all i could do was massive water changes until it turned around.. but with SPS lmao i just look in there and am like yep here it goes again stn or rtn .. and I will test and test again and things look good, but they continue to die.. I am really leaning towards low nutrients at this point..  if you get bored this weekend check your nitrates I am curious where you run.. I am betting its higher than most think is acceptable for sps..  also I wonder how sensitive to par changes sps are. I use a narrow version of the kessil and when I was checking par yesterday I noticed that the par up high on my rocks can change by about 30 percent if I even move my light left or right by an inch.. I need to stop swinging them out of the way during my weekly w.c. bc I know they arent going back to the exact spot. Prob need to trade this narrow kessil for a wide version..🤷‍♂️🤷‍♂️🤷‍♂️🤦‍♂️🤙

[DreC80]

1 hour ago, mitten_reef said:

there probably was one at some point, but not since I've been on NR.  for all of my time on here, people just congregated in SPS tank threads to discuss various issues and shared insights.  @markalot has a very long journal history on his 150.  obviously @teenyreef's multiple tanks.  I used to hang in @HarryPotter 350 all the time.  the old metrokat's tank, not current one..., but she's been less active on here the last couple of years.  urbaneks - that's the primo gold, look up "urbaneks 250", better yet, here (yes I got this thread bookmarked).  

 

I don't mind if you guys just wanna hang in here 😛, everyone is welcome to join in.  I can't imagine how to manage an sps-topic thread to accommodate all levels of experience, but it won't hurt if you wanna give it a shot.  2005?  I joined NR in 2016, that's when I purchased my first acro, just take a look at my first page 😄, kept a nano since 2012.  

 

 

Cool, I've checked out most of the ones you listed, but not urbaneks.  I'll take a look.  Yup, 2005...had a 100 gallon non-non-reef ready tank with an external syphon overflow box lol.  Metal halides, XM bulbs, VHO actinics, geo calc reactor and of course a chiller.  I was stationed in Spokane, Washington at the time and learned a ton from a guy named Kevin Pockell.  He went by kevinpo on Reef Central when it was big.  He owned an LFS called Aquatic Dreams and his tank/store was featured on Reef Builders in 2006 I believe.  I just saw the video the other day.  The guy was an SPS genius.  

 

You've acquired a lot of SPS knowledge in 4 years.

[Gramophone]

Totally diggin' the little torch collection. Beautiful tank! That rainbow BTA 💗

[mitten_reef]

1 minute ago, Gramophone said:

Totally diggin' the little torch collection. Beautiful tank! That rainbow BTA 💗

Thanks a bunch! 
 

the bta isn’t mine 😬. @Matteo shared the pictures to show off his photography skills. Don’t miss checking out his crazy photo updates today on his build thread! 

[mitten_reef]

On 5/21/2020 at 2:52 PM, DreC80 said:

You've acquired a lot of SPS knowledge in 4 years.

Thanks man, 90+% of what I know about reefing, I learned from stalking tank threads on here. The rest is from small readings on advanced aquarists here and there.  

[mitten_reef]

On 5/21/2020 at 1:57 PM, FISHnChix said:

Yea I know what your saying. I can look in my tank and be like yep somethings off.. normally it's something easy to fix. Although one time I had no idea what was going on and stuff was crashing hard and all i could do was massive water changes until it turned around.. but with SPS lmao i just look in there and am like yep here it goes again stn or rtn .. and I will test and test again and things look good, but they continue to die.. I am really leaning towards low nutrients at this point..  if you get bored this weekend check your nitrates I am curious where you run.. I am betting its higher than most think is acceptable for sps..  also I wonder how sensitive to par changes sps are. I use a narrow version of the kessil and when I was checking par yesterday I noticed that the par up high on my rocks can change by about 30 percent if I even move my light left or right by an inch.. I need to stop swinging them out of the way during my weekly w.c. bc I know they arent going back to the exact spot. Prob need to trade this narrow kessil for a wide version..🤷‍♂️🤷‍♂️🤷‍♂️🤦‍♂️🤙

The last few times I attempted to test nitrate, my API kit showed “0”, for all of them, no change in color whatsoever.  Might need a new test kit before I can report any number.  But I got plenty of nutrient, my corals are quite green, greener than I’d like them to be. Oh, and lately, plenty of algae on the glass.

[FISHnChix]

3 minutes ago, mitten_reef said:

The last few times I attempted to test nitrate, my API kit showed “0”, for all of them, no change in color whatsoever.  Might need a new test kit before I can report any number.  But I got plenty of nutrient, my corals are quite green, greener than I’d like them to be. Oh, and lately, plenty of algae on the glass.

Well shit.  Yea api for nitrate has always been weird for me. I dunno how accurate those are , but a reading of zero is pretty obvious... 

 

What about your feeding I dont remember off hand what you do🤔🤔🤔.. 

 

Oh and stylo is still alive and looks the same  .. maybe there is hope 😊

[Thrassian Atoll]

Looking good Mitten! 

[mitten_reef]

16 minutes ago, FISHnChix said:

Well shit.  Yea api for nitrate has always been weird for me. I dunno how accurate those are , but a reading of zero is pretty obvious... 

 

What about your feeding I dont remember off hand what you do🤔🤔🤔.. 

 

Oh and stylo is still alive and looks the same  .. maybe there is hope 😊

That’s great news on the stylo!

 

i try to feed either frozen or pellet food for fish daily.  I can’t skip feeding the fish, otherwise, the Pygmy angel would start nipping the maxima clam. 🤦🏻‍♂️  the corals get a couple tiny scoops of reef roid (that tiny reagent scoop from Red Sea test kit) almost everyday, sometimes it could also be twice a day. 

 

[FISHnChix]

4 minutes ago, mitten_reef said:

That’s great news on the stylo!

 

i try to feed either frozen or pellet food for fish daily.  I can’t skip feeding the fish, otherwise, the Pygmy angel would start nipping the maxima clam. 🤦🏻‍♂️  the corals get a couple tiny scoops of reef roid (that tiny reagent scoop from Red Sea test kit) almost everyday, sometimes it could also be twice a day. 

 

Yea your going to have to expand on that reef roids brother.🤗🤗. you make a small paste and feed your lps or just that little scoop and broadcast the the tank??

[tanacharison]

18 hours ago, FISHnChix said:

Yea your going to have to expand on that reef roids brother.🤗🤗. you make a small paste and feed your lps or just that little scoop and broadcast the the tank??

I'm taking notes here... Maybe I won't kill as much. I feed like the cook on the muppets. 

 

 

[FISHnChix]

2 minutes ago, tanacharison said:

I'm taking notes here... Maybe I won't kill as much. I feed like the cook on the muppets. 

Man sorry to hear about your tank. Definitely one I follow.  I'm sure you will turn it around. I wanna see those Triton results

[mitten_reef]

13 minutes ago, FISHnChix said:

Yea your going to have to expand on that reef roids brother.🤗🤗. you make a small paste and feed your lps or just that little scoop and broadcast the the tank??

Ok, two really tiny scoops see pic below. That’s the little tiny spoon that comes with one of the Red Sea test kits, either Ca or Mg I don’t remember.  The lid of the little reef roid jar is what the scoop is sitting on. 
I put this in one of those 2-oz plastic to-go sauce cup, fill mostly full with tank water, shake it to mix, then target feed the acros. I give a small puff around frag/colony areas, with all pumps off. Let it sit til the pumps come back on on their own (both the gyre and the mighty jet return pumps have 10 min feed timer). The food that didn’t “fall” on the polyps just kinda get redistributed around the tank afterward for a second feeding. 
I try to feed sparingly because I have no filtration beyond the floss at the overflow. 
 

when I do frozen food for fish, the torch and acan do get little squirts of frozen mix liquid.  Usually thaw half a cube in the 2-oz cup also.  
Is that too much info? 😂