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RO/DI water left exposed to air in my house accumulates ammonia. Why?


callmesaul8889

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callmesaul8889

Like the title says, if I leave RO/DI out in my house it will accumulate ~1ppm of ammonia per day. I don't know where it's coming from and I'm looking to you guys for help figuring it out. The water is made with a 6 stage RO/DI with dual catalytic carbon blocks for chloramine.

 

 

I've taken some pics of the tests to help show the problem: http://imgur.com/a/0koWH

 

I've ruled out our cat box, dirty HVAC, my RO/DI unit (all new filters), and there aren't any obvious odors in the house. Any ideas?

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leaking bottle of ammonia somewhere perhaps?

 

Some refrigerators use ammonia as a coolant, might be one leaking.

A dehumidifier is the same technology as AC/fridge and some older ones also use ammonia as a coolant.

 

I'd add, do you smell ammonia in the air?

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chipmunkofdoom2

What type of container are you keeping your RO/DI in? What is the TDS reading of your newly made RO/DI water? When was the last time you calibrated your TDS meter?

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Like the title says, if I leave RO/DI out in my house it will accumulate ~1ppm of ammonia per day. I don't know where it's coming from and I'm looking to you guys for help figuring it out. The water is made with a 6 stage RO/DI with dual catalytic carbon blocks for chloramine.

 

 

I've taken some pics of the tests to help show the problem: http://imgur.com/a/0koWH

 

I've ruled out our cat box, dirty HVAC, my RO/DI unit (all new filters), and there aren't any obvious odors in the house. Any ideas?

 

Assuming you have a cat from your avatar. Litter box in the area?

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New matress/furniture acquired in the past month or two? Outgassing from many manufacturers' products can be surprisingly pervasive for a long time.

 

Also, what happens to the levels if you air the place out? IE put a box fan blowing out a window at one end aND open a window at the other? And how fast dies this return to what you're seeing?

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Haha pretty cool experiment setup. So my first thought would be an error in the test kit or test procedure. API isn't really known for being all that accurate in tests - many view it only as an indicative of what's going on.

 

It's weird, however, that the outside air one has less while the indoor containers all show a degree of positive.

 

My only guess is that there is a bacteria or fungi in your house that is causing it. Do you have indoor houseplants or use composted soil indoors? Soil is pretty rich with bacteria and fungi that aren't really harmful to people or animals but might be the culprits.

 

I'm sure someone knowledgeable in this area will chime in and science the sh!t out of us guessers... Like something with enzymes and the half-life of nitrogen... hehe Who knows. Maybe try to repeat the experiment and use another test kit to verify?

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callmesaul8889

leaking bottle of ammonia somewhere perhaps?

 

Some refrigerators use ammonia as a coolant, might be one leaking.

A dehumidifier is the same technology as AC/fridge and some older ones also use ammonia as a coolant.

 

I'd add, do you smell ammonia in the air?

 

I'm going to pack up all of our cleaning supplies and put them in our garage for a few days and see what that does. Both A/C units and fridge are new enough to not use ammonia. I do have a small wine fridge.. I'm going to unplug that and see what happens. I don't smell any ammonia anywhere.

 

 

What type of container are you keeping your RO/DI in? What is the TDS reading of your newly made RO/DI water? When was the last time you calibrated your TDS meter?

 

I used glass for the first couple rounds of testing. Since then I've used red solo cups as they're easier to label. I'm seeing the same results regardless of glass/red solo cups. TDS is 0 of my RO/DI water and all of the filters are brand new. I haven't calibrated my TDS meter recently but the results are consistent. ~100ppm from the tap, 0 from RO/DI, ~1ppm after 24+ hours exposed to air.

 

 

Assuming you have a cat from your avatar. Litter box in the area?

 

That was the original thought, but no. I got a closed in litter box and moved it to a far corner of the house away from airflow and the spots where I'm testing.

 

 

New matress/furniture acquired in the past month or two? Outgassing from many manufacturers' products can be surprisingly pervasive for a long time.

 

Also, what happens to the levels if you air the place out? IE put a box fan blowing out a window at one end aND open a window at the other? And how fast dies this return to what you're seeing?

 

 

Nothing like that, no. We moved in May of 2015, so we haven't even been here for a year. If I open the windows and get some good airflow in the house, the ammonia levels drop to unreadable. After I close up the windows, it takes about 10-12 hours to show up as 1/2ppm or less on the test kit. It's noticeably lighter green after the windows have been open.

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callmesaul8889

Haha pretty cool experiment setup. So my first thought would be an error in the test kit or test procedure. API isn't really known for being all that accurate in tests - many view it only as an indicative of what's going on.

 

It's weird, however, that the outside air one has less while the indoor containers all show a degree of positive.

 

My only guess is that there is a bacteria or fungi in your house that is causing it. Do you have indoor houseplants or use composted soil indoors? Soil is pretty rich with bacteria and fungi that aren't really harmful to people or animals but might be the culprits.

 

I'm sure someone knowledgeable in this area will chime in and science the sh!t out of us guessers... Like something with enzymes and the half-life of nitrogen... hehe Who knows. Maybe try to repeat the experiment and use another test kit to verify?

 

 

Haha thanks. It completely ruins my tank and inhabitants, so I have a bit more of a negative outlook on the whole ordeal lol.

 

Yes the API test kid are known for being shoddy, but they've been consistent since test #1. I've never had a false positive before with it, and this would be about the #15th false positive test that only seems to be a false positive when indoors... and that consistently reads 1ppm more every 24 hours. I will buy or borrow a nicer test asap just to double check.

 

We don't have any indoor houseplants. I did just have our air ducts sanitized and there was some mold, but apparently it's pretty common in Florida and the sanitization should have taken care of it.

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Haha thanks. It completely ruins my tank and inhabitants, so I have a bit more of a negative outlook on the whole ordeal lol.

 

Yes the API test kid are known for being shoddy, but they've been consistent since test #1. I've never had a false positive before with it, and this would be about the #15th false positive test that only seems to be a false positive when indoors... and that consistently reads 1ppm more every 24 hours. I will buy or borrow a nicer test asap just to double check.

 

We don't have any indoor houseplants. I did just have our air ducts sanitized and there was some mold, but apparently it's pretty common in Florida and the sanitization should have taken care of it.

 

So is this causing issues with your tank do you think? What are some of the things that are happening to your tank? Is your tank water registering ammonia? Do any of your tanks' inhabitants exhibit signs of ammonia poisoning?

 

I suppose my thought in the last post was more that ammonia is pretty common... It's being produced by microorganisms pretty much everywhere. So while there likely is a long and scientific explanation for the phenomenon you're experiencing it may not be something to be worried about.

 

I kind of want to repeat the experiment at my house but I don't have an ammonia test kit ATM :wacko:

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callmesaul8889

 

So is this causing issues with your tank do you think? What are some of the things that are happening to your tank? Is your tank water registering ammonia? Do any of your tanks' inhabitants exhibit signs of ammonia poisoning?

 

I suppose my thought in the last post was more that ammonia is pretty common... It's being produced by microorganisms pretty much everywhere. So while there likely is a long and scientific explanation for the phenomenon you're experiencing it may not be something to be worried about.

 

I kind of want to repeat the experiment at my house but I don't have an ammonia test kit ATM :wacko:

 

(I sold the tank because of these problems. I'm ready to start another tank once I figure this out.)

 

My old tank never showed any levels of ammonia, but it did show a lot of nitrate. My tank was very established, so any new ammonia would be converted to nitrate quickly.

 

Since moving in to this house, all of my SPS began to pale out growth slowed to a crawl. I began testing parameters A LOT and found that the tank's nitrate level went up unusually, fast. It would go from 5ppm up to 15ppm in a few days with barely any feeding. I had a pristine tank: bare bottom, heavy skimming, no nuisance algae. No matter how clean I kept the tank, nitrate would rise and rise. I was doing weekly 80% water changes and at the end of the week, I'd have 25ppm levels. I ended up taking out 50% of the coral and sold off all my fish except one to lower the bioload as much as possible, but the tank still accumulated nitrate even with bare minimum feeding and 1 fish.

 

All of the macro algae I tried to grow died off. Chaeto and dragon's breath would just fade away over time. I tried carbon dosing with NOPOX but ended up with white slime everywhere that rendered my skimmer useless. I tried a second time with 1/4th the dose and still got the slime. Throughout this, phosphate levels were very low at around 0.02ppm using a Hanna ULR phosphorus meter.

 

I'm sure there's more but that's pretty much it. Here's another thread from before I found this ammonia oddity: http://www.nano-reef.com/topic/363207-zeroundetectable-phosphates/

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That's perfect. I was looking for something like that in electronic form but never thought about paper strip tests. I just placed an order. Hopefully that'll help me pin this down quicker.

 

how dirty is your air? dusty, hepa filtered? constantly collecting dead skin cells and dander?

any livestock around in tampa?

the last post about weird water changes boiled down to his kids tampering with the water...

 

attached public health info:

 

What is ammonia?

Ammonia (NH3) is one of the most commonly produced industrial chemicals in the United States. It is used in industry and commerce, and also exists naturally in humans and in the environment. Ammonia is essential for many biological processes and serves as a precursor for amino acid and nucleotide synthesis. In the environment, ammonia is part of the nitrogen cycle and is produced in soil from bacterial processes. Ammonia is also produced naturally from decomposition of organic matter, including plants, animals and animal wastes.

Some chemical/physical properties of ammonia are:

  • At room temperature, ammonia is a colorless, highly irritating gas with a pungent, suffocating odor.
  • In pure form, it is known as anhydrous ammonia and is hygroscopic (readily absorbs moisture).
  • Ammonia has alkaline properties and is corrosive.
  • Ammonia gas dissolves easily in water to form ammonium hydroxide, a caustic solution and weak base.
  • Ammonia gas is easily compressed and forms a clear liquid under pressure.
  • Ammonia is usually shipped as a compressed liquid in steel containers.
  • Ammonia is not highly flammable, but containers of ammonia may explode when exposed to high heat.
How is ammonia used?

About 80% of the ammonia produced by industry is used in agriculture as fertilizer. Ammonia is also used as a refrigerant gas, for purification of water supplies, and in the manufacture of plastics, explosives, textiles, pesticides, dyes and other chemicals. It is found in many household and industrial-strength cleaning solutions. Household ammonia cleaning solutions are manufactured by adding ammonia gas to water and can be between 5 and 10% ammonia. Ammonia solutions for industrial use may be concentrations of 25% or higher and are corrosive.

How can people be exposed to ammonia?

Most people are exposed to ammonia from inhalation of the gas or vapors. Since ammonia exists naturally and is also present in cleaning products, exposure may occur from these sources. The widespread use of ammonia on farms and in industrial and commercial locations also means that exposure can occur from an accidental release or from a deliberate terrorist attack.

Anhydrous ammonia gas is lighter than air and will rise, so that generally it dissipates and does not settle in low-lying areas. However, in the presence of moisture (such as high relative humidity), the liquefied anhydrous ammonia gas forms vapors that are heavier than air. These vapors may spread along the ground or into low-lying areas with poor airflow where people may become exposed.

What is ammonia’s mechanism of action?

Ammonia interacts immediately upon contact with available moisture in the skin, eyes, oral cavity, respiratory tract, and particularly mucous surfaces to form the very caustic ammonium hydroxide. Ammonium hydroxide causes the necrosis of tissues through disruption of cell membrane lipids (saponification) leading to cellular destruction. As cell proteins break down, water is extracted, resulting in an inflammatory response that causes further damage.

What are the immediate health effects of ammonia exposure?

Inhalation: Ammonia is irritating and corrosive. Exposure to high concentrations of ammonia in air causes immediate burning of the nose, throat and respiratory tract. This can cause bronchiolar and alveolar edema, and airway destruction resulting in respiratory distress or failure. Inhalation of lower concentrations can cause coughing, and nose and throat irritation. Ammonia's odor provides adequate early warning of its presence, but ammonia also causes olfactory fatigue or adaptation, reducing awareness of one's prolonged exposure at low concentrations.

Children exposed to the same concentrations of ammonia vapor as adults may receive a larger dose because they have greater lung surface area-to-body weight ratios and increased minute volumes-to-weight ratios. In addition, they may be exposed to higher concentrations than adults in the same location because of their shorter height and the higher concentrations of ammonia vapor initially found near the ground.

Skin or eye contact: Exposure to low concentrations of ammonia in air or solution may produce rapid skin or eye irritation. Higher concentrations of ammonia may cause severe injury and burns. Contact with concentrated ammonia solutions such as industrial cleaners may cause corrosive injury including skin burns, permanent eye damage or blindness. The full extent of eye injury may not be apparent for up to a week after the exposure. Contact with liquefied ammonia can also cause frostbite injury.

Ingestion: Exposure to high concentrations of ammonia from swallowing ammonia solution results in corrosive damage to the mouth, throat and stomach. Ingestion of ammonia does not normally result in systemic poisoning.

How is ammonia exposure treated?

There is no antidote for ammonia poisoning, but ammonia's effects can be treated, and most people recover. Immediate decontamination of skin and eyes with copious amounts of water is very important. Treatment consists of supportive measures and can include administration of humidified oxygen, bronchodilators and airway management. Ingested ammonia is diluted with milk or water.

Will laboratory tests assist in making treatment decisions if someone has been exposed to ammonia?

Laboratory testing for ammonia exposure will not be useful in making emergency treatment decisions. Medical tests that can detect ammonia in blood or urine are available. However, because ammonia is normally found in the body, these test results cannot serve as biomarkers of exposure. After exposure to low levels, ammonia is either rapidly cleared from the body or metabolized to compounds found endogenously at appreciable levels. Clinical indices of body ammonia or nitrogen levels after exposure to exogenous ammonia have shown no or minimal change from prior levels. Exposure to high concentrations is immediately and overtly toxic, generally providing an adequate basis for diagnosis.

How can I get more information about ammonia?

Call the following numbers, or visit the websites listed among the "Sources."

  • Centers for Disease Control and Prevention Public Response Hotline (1-888-246-2675)
  • Agency for Toxic Substances and Disease Registry (1-888-422-8737)
  • Regional Poison Control Center (1-800-222-1222)
Sources:

Agency for Toxic Substances and Disease Registry. 2004. ToxFAQs for Ammonia. Division of Toxicology, U.S. Department of Health and Human Services. Public Health Service: Atlanta, GA. Accessed May 6, 2004. http://www.atsdr.cdc.gov/tfacts126.html

Agency for Toxic Substances and Disease Registry. 2004. Medical Management Guidelines (MMGs) for Ammonia. Division of Toxicology, U.S. Department of Health and Human Services. Public Health Service: Atlanta, GA. Accessed May 6, 2004. http://www.atsdr.cdc.gov/MHMI/mmg126.html

Centers for Disease Control and Prevention. 2003. Public Health Emergency Preparedness and Response Sheets. U.S. Department of Health and Human Services. Public Health Service: Atlanta, GA. Accessed May 6, 2004. http://www.bt.cdc.gov/agent/ammonia/index.asp

This fact sheet is based on the most current information. It may be updated as new information becomes available.

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callmesaul8889

 

how dirty is your air? dusty, hepa filtered? constantly collecting dead skin cells and dander?

any livestock around in tampa?

the last post about weird water changes boiled down to his kids tampering with the water...

 

The house was fairly dirty when we moved in. Since then, we've cleaned out the dryer and dryer ducts, had full HVAC cleaning and sanitization, and cleaned all of the ceiling fans as well as the vents. There's nothing that makes me think it's any dirtier than a typical house.

 

There isn't any livestock near where I live, and outdoors seems to be free of any ammonia or obvious odors. And I don't have any kids, just a few roommates. They all know better than to touch my reef stuff :)

 

Since you aren't seeing the same thing inside as outside I'd say its not due to the air outside.

 

How new is the house? There were lots of problems with drywall after the last big round of Hurricanes in Florida. But if I remember correctly most of that was sulfur and not ammonia.

 

http://inspect-12.com/mold-remediation/chinese-drywall

 

The house is ~11 years old. We checked for chinese drywall and didn't see any, nor did we see signs of it. I was told that chinese drywall would cause corrosion on metals in my A/C closets and my HVAC service guy didn't see any signs of that.

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I know this doesn't remedy the source, but have you considered putting ball valves on the clean/waste water output so you can seal the unit while not in use? I do that as I store mine under the kitchen sink.

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callmesaul8889

I know this doesn't remedy the source, but have you considered putting ball valves on the clean/waste water output so you can seal the unit while not in use? I do that as I store mine under the kitchen sink.

 

I do have shutoff valves for the entire RO/DI system. I usually leave them open and let the auto-shutoff valve do its job, but I can start sealing off the entire system.

 

Easy solution. Bring someone in to test and find the source. I don't think you are going to be able to find the source with primitive testing.

 

Who can I bring in? I've called a plumbing company, 2 HVAC cleaning services, and a place called Indoor Environmental Technologies. None of the above had any ideas as to what this could be. I did buy some Hydrion ammonia test paper to see if that will help narrow down where the source is. If you have any suggestions as to who I can contact about testing, I'll call them today.

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I do have shutoff valves for the entire RO/DI system. I usually leave them open and let the auto-shutoff valve do its job, but I can start sealing off the entire system.

 

 

Who can I bring in? I've called a plumbing company, 2 HVAC cleaning services, and a place called Indoor Environmental Technologies. None of the above had any ideas as to what this could be. I did buy some Hydrion ammonia test paper to see if that will help narrow down where the source is. If you have any suggestions as to who I can contact about testing, I'll call them today.

 

 

It could be a million things. Did the previous owners have cats/dogs that possibly urinated on the carpet/wood floors? Have you checked the attic/crawlspace for pests? Any fertilizers used or stored at the house? Was the wood framing treated with ammonia to kill mold growth during construction?

 

I'd personally call a pest control guy and a water damage cleanup company.

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callmesaul8889

 

 

It could be a million things. Did the previous owners have cats/dogs that possibly urinated on the carpet/wood floors? Have you checked the attic/crawlspace for pests? Any fertilizers used or stored at the house? Was the wood framing treated with ammonia to kill mold growth during construction?

 

I'd personally call a pest control guy and a water damage cleanup company.

 

Did the previous owners have cats/dogs that urinated on the carpet: yes, we have been ferociously scrubbing these stains. Only our upstairs is carpeted and we've had the carpets professionally cleaned and sanitized. Every time the stains come back up, we clean it again. There's no odor coming from these stains, but I haven't discounted it yet.

 

The attic is getting no concentration of ammonia, I checked that. I don't know about the wood framing, but if it were covered in ammonia, I would expect that the attic would be concentrated just as the living space is.

 

I know our hard wood floors show signs of water damage near our front and back doors, but again there's no odor or mold or anything. What would pest control have to offer? There's no damage in our attics, no smells, no rat droppings or anything. I would imagine our cat would be freaking out if we had rodents or something in the walls.

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Did the previous owners have cats/dogs that urinated on the carpet: yes, we have been ferociously scrubbing these stains. Only our upstairs is carpeted and we've had the carpets professionally cleaned and sanitized. Every time the stains come back up, we clean it again. There's no odor coming from these stains, but I haven't discounted it yet.

 

The attic is getting no concentration of ammonia, I checked that. I don't know about the wood framing, but if it were covered in ammonia, I would expect that the attic would be concentrated just as the living space is.

 

I know our hard wood floors show signs of water damage near our front and back doors, but again there's no odor or mold or anything. What would pest control have to offer? There's no damage in our attics, no smells, no rat droppings or anything. I would imagine our cat would be freaking out if we had rodents or something in the walls.

 

You would really be surprised. Pests can live in the walls/attic and you wouldn't know. Hell Stellablue has a colony of bats in her attic. She didn't know until recently and she has several hundred. And she has a cat and 3 dogs. Domestic animals lose a lot of that killer instinct. So your cat might not alert.

 

My money is on those stains/flooring. They might not be emitting odors to your nose but probably enough to affect the air quality. I'd start replacing the flooring as you can. If you can DIY you can save lots of money.

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callmesaul8889

 

You would really be surprised. Pests can live in the walls/attic and you wouldn't know. Hell Stellablue has a colony of bats in her attic. She didn't know until recently and she has several hundred. And she has a cat and 3 dogs. Domestic animals lose a lot of that killer instinct. So your cat might not alert.

 

My money is on those stains/flooring. They might not be emitting odors to your nose but probably enough to affect the air quality. I'd start replacing the flooring as you can. If you can DIY you can save lots of money.

 

 

 

So if I had a colony of pests in my walls (enough to cause that much ammonia in my house) shouldn't that also be detectable in my attic? I'd think the inner walls would be much more connected to the attic than the inside of the house. From my understanding, gaseous ammonia should be lighter than air and float up to the top level, which is exactly where I tested the attic.

 

Replacing the carpets would be a real PITA, but I know I can do it. They've been grossing me out since moving in. I'm going to leave the carpet replacement as a last ditch effort. I want to see what the chloramine and ammonia test paper tests say first.

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So if I had a colony of pests in my walls (enough to cause that much ammonia in my house) shouldn't that also be detectable in my attic? I'd think the inner walls would be much more connected to the attic than the inside of the house. From my understanding, gaseous ammonia should be lighter than air and float up to the top level, which is exactly where I tested the attic.

 

Replacing the carpets would be a real PITA, but I know I can do it. They've been grossing me out since moving in. I'm going to leave the carpet replacement as a last ditch effort. I want to see what the chloramine and ammonia test paper tests say first.

 

Depends on how sealed your attic space is. You probably have more penetrations via lights, fans, holes going into the attic then you do from the wall cavities. Pests are probably not the issue but they probably were at one point. Lowes has good pricing on carpet. If you can remove and dispose of it you save a significant amount. Most of their purchases include free carpet install or low cost. If they gross you out that much they probably are the cause.

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