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Harry‚Äôs Riddikulus Reefer 350 ūü§°

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If you are not seeing any higher alk after two 25% WCs with this salt, then something is amiss.

 

1.  Hanna alk checkers have had issues with the reagent.  I'd stop dosing, get a reading with your Hanna and then take a sample of tank water to your nearest LFS for verification (assuming you don't have a different Alk test kit handy).

 

2.  What is your Mag?  If really low, that could be your problem with alk not rising:

 

http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2002/11/chemistry

 

Finally, if you are adding large amount of calcium and alkalinity supplements, but just cannot maintain the desired values, you might want to measure the magnesium level in the water. Magnesium plays an important role in preventing the abiotic precipitation of calcium carbonate1, and if it is substantially depleted, you may be experiencing excessive amounts of calcium and alkalinity loss to this route. Magnesium gets the blame far more frequently, in my opinion, than it is likely responsible, but since it is easy to check with a test kit and easy to supplement if necessary, there’s no reason to not see if it is a problem. I’d advise aiming for a natural seawater level of about 1300 ppm.

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Mag is worth checking but with water changes I doubt it's an issue.

 

If the acros are still growing then it will depend on how often he tests.  I think many people underestimate just how much alk a bunch of healthy acros can use up.  I ran out of two part in at some point in the evening without noticing and by the next evening my Alk was at 5.5, down from 7.  160ml of each part required to bring Alk back up (according to calculator), but normal daily usage is 85ml. 

 

I am paraphrasing something someone said on another forum ...  An SPS tank is like a game at the arcade, the further you get the faster the gameplay is until you eventually fail. :D

 

What's interesting to me is that if I dose, say, 50ml daily, Alk will still stay in the 6.2ish range, growth will slow, and some health issues will show up if down there long enough.  Stop dosing Alk all together and it falls through 6, down into the 5's.  You would think it Alk would end up in the same place, just take longer to fall, but there is some kind of regulation happening when the tank is provided with some Alk supplement.  Perhaps it's  grow->slow as Alk drops too low->Alk provided->grow->slow etc. 

 

When raising Alk back up you must also be aware of imbalance and precip if you dose the parts too close together.  It's important not to react to just the Alk number but assume you must have both and dose both. 

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Not sure of Harry's WC routine in the past, so that's why Mag came to mind...

 

Yes, I believe the Alk drop slow down beyond the bottom end of the range is indeed due to the slow down of the corals' calcification.  Makes sense.

 

With all the SPS bleaching, the demand for Cal and Alk *should* be substantially lessened.  If two back-to-back 25% WCs with this higher Alk salt don't budge the Alk test result...that just seems a bit odd to me, so that's why I suggested verification.

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2 hours ago, markalot said:

 

Yes, toy salt.  It's not really deserved, the salt has a purpose and it does it well, but if you want to grow acros for a long time and keep them alive while they grow bigger then IMO you need to focus on natural seawater params and stability.  The closer you are to NSW the more room you have for error.  RSCP works very well for low demand tanks that can tolerate Alk movement.

 

 

 

Yeah, that makes sense. Next bucket I'll convert and focus on testing/dosing to keep parameters where I want them. 

 

Current dKh 9.3 after following B ionic instructions of a ml per gallon to raise 2dkh. Apparently a ml per gallon raises it 4dkh ūüėē

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2 hours ago, Nano sapiens said:

If you are not seeing any higher alk after two 25% WCs with this salt, then something is amiss.

 

1.  Hanna alk checkers have had issues with the reagent.  I'd stop dosing, get a reading with your Hanna and then take a sample of tank water to your nearest LFS for verification (assuming you don't have a different Alk test kit handy).

 

2.  What is your Mag?  If really low, that could be your problem with alk not rising:

 

http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2002/11/chemistry

 

Finally, if you are adding large amount of calcium and alkalinity supplements, but just cannot maintain the desired values, you might want to measure the magnesium level in the water. Magnesium plays an important role in preventing the abiotic precipitation of calcium carbonate1, and if it is substantially depleted, you may be experiencing excessive amounts of calcium and alkalinity loss to this route. Magnesium gets the blame far more frequently, in my opinion, than it is likely responsible, but since it is easy to check with a test kit and easy to supplement if necessary, there’s no reason to not see if it is a problem. I’d advise aiming for a natural seawater level of about 1300 ppm.

 

1. The reagent is new (just opened today) and I confirmed readings with API. 

 

2. No idea on magnesium, I've never tested for it. It was on the "if it's amiss a water change will fix it" list. But I'm ordering Salifert now. 

 

54 minutes ago, markalot said:

Mag is worth checking but with water changes I doubt it's an issue.

 

If the acros are still growing then it will depend on how often he tests.  I think many people underestimate just how much alk a bunch of healthy acros can use up.  I ran out of two part in at some point in the evening without noticing and by the next evening my Alk was at 5.5, down from 7.  160ml of each part required to bring Alk back up (according to calculator), but normal daily usage is 85ml. 

 

I am paraphrasing something someone said on another forum ...  An SPS tank is like a game at the arcade, the further you get the faster the gameplay is until you eventually fail. :D

 

What's interesting to me is that if I dose, say, 50ml daily, Alk will still stay in the 6.2ish range, growth will slow, and some health issues will show up if down there long enough.  Stop dosing Alk all together and it falls through 6, down into the 5's.  You would think it Alk would end up in the same place, just take longer to fall, but there is some kind of regulation happening when the tank is provided with some Alk supplement.  Perhaps it's  grow->slow as Alk drops too low->Alk provided->grow->slow etc. 

 

When raising Alk back up you must also be aware of imbalance and precip if you dose the parts too close together.  It's important not to react to just the Alk number but assume you must have both and dose both. 

 

I might even start graphing my daily Alkalinity. I'm now a believer. Yes, it seems Alkalinity cannot "bottom out" too hard, a low number just restricts growth and causes corals to be susceptible to necrosis or other issues. No coralline, no white edges on Montipora, yet great PE all around. 

 

30 minutes ago, Nano sapiens said:

Not sure of Harry's WC routine in the past, so that's why Mag came to mind...

 

Yes, I believe the Alk drop slow down beyond the bottom end of the range is indeed due to the slow down of the corals' calcification.  Makes sense.

 

With all the SPS bleaching, the demand for Cal and Alk *should* be substantially lessened.  If two back-to-back 25% WCs with this higher Alk salt don't budge the Alk test result...that just seems a bit odd to me, so that's why I suggested verification.

 

My water change routine was 25% a month although I may have fallen behind. This was the kick in the butt to get organized and to work harder and push to get the health and growth I want instead of being laid back ūüėą

 

If you add 25% 11dkh water to 75% 5dkh water, the raise is pretty limited and the corals will most likely use that in a day or two. 

 

Next step is battling with my doser doser to get it working right. 

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22 minutes ago, HarryPotter said:

 

Yeah, that makes sense. Next bucket I'll convert and focus on testing/dosing to keep parameters where I want them. 

 

Current dKh 9.3 after following B ionic instructions of a ml per gallon to raise 2dkh. Apparently a ml per gallon raises it 4dkh ūüėē

 

Let it fall back and hope you didn't do more harm.  I know it was an accident but that kind of alk rise will lead to harm that might not show up for a few days or weeks.  This is the hard part, keeping everything stable and ignoring what is happening in the tank.  Remember i did this and damn near killed everything.  The big lesson for me was ... everything looks fine the next day, and the next day, and even the next day, and then it doesn't.  

 

Perhaps you tested too soon after dosing?  Might want to test again and see if it's lower (crosses fingers).

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24 minutes ago, markalot said:

 

Let it fall back and hope you didn't do more harm.  I know it was an accident but that kind of alk rise will lead to harm that might not show up for a few days or weeks.  This is the hard part, keeping everything stable and ignoring what is happening in the tank.  Remember i did this and damn near killed everything.  The big lesson for me was ... everything looks fine the next day, and the next day, and even the next day, and then it doesn't.  

 

Perhaps you tested too soon after dosing?  Might want to test again and see if it's lower (crosses fingers).

 

Yeah, I don't want to make it unstable. I'll test tomorrow morning and see where it ended up. Doser is still down pending programming, as is apex fusion. 

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4 hours ago, markalot said:

 

Yes, toy salt.  It's not really deserved, the salt has a purpose and it does it well, but if you want to grow acros for a long time and keep them alive while they grow bigger then IMO you need to focus on natural seawater params and stability.  The closer you are to NSW the more room you have for error.  RSCP works very well for low demand tanks that can tolerate Alk movement.

 

 

Interesting that you mentioned that, on "Red Sea nutrition plans", or whatever it is they're pushing, they did say that rscp is for mixed reef type, but was not recommended for tank with majority SPS. 

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8 hours ago, micoastreefing said:

Interesting that you mentioned that, on "Red Sea nutrition plans", or whatever it is they're pushing, they did say that rscp is for mixed reef type, but was not recommended for tank with majority SPS. 

 

Their blue bucket salt is excellent, mixing to very near natural params.  The only reason I don't buy it is that it's not available in a medium sized container or a box with bags sized so I can carry them (bad back).  I use AquaForest Reef Salt which is ok, mixes very fast, has decent params, and comes in a medium sized bucket at a somewhat reasonable price.

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15 minutes ago, markalot said:

 

Their blue bucket salt is excellent, mixing to very near natural params.  The only reason I don't buy it is that it's not available in a medium sized container or a box with bags sized so I can carry them (bad back).  I use AquaForest Reef Salt which is ok, mixes very fast, has decent params, and comes in a medium sized bucket at a somewhat reasonable price.

 

 

Markalot, I am down to 6.2 dKh. Last night it was 9.3. Should I continue the super heavy dosing or is something wrong? No visible precipitation.... but overnight lost 3dkh.  

 

Im sorry for bothering you so much. I appreciate the help. 

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I'd focus on getting your doser back online as soon as possible (and keep it working and keep the containers full :slap:), else your tank is going to be very unstable and with things being stressed they want stability. As to your tests, I don't think you'd use 3dKH overnight though - that seems a little excessive, so one has to assume your test last night or this morning wasn't accurate. Test again and if it comes out at 6.3 again, then do a single dose up to 7 and you'll be in a good spot to keep it stable at. 

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38 minutes ago, HarryPotter said:

 

 

Markalot, I am down to 6.2 dKh. Last night it was 9.3. Should I continue the super heavy dosing or is something wrong? No visible precipitation.... but overnight lost 3dkh.  

 

Im sorry for bothering you so much. I appreciate the help. 

 

This is excellent news, it tells me your dosing last night was correct and your testing was off.  A drop from 7.5 to 6.3 is more reasonable and if it did happen it tells us acros are still using Alk so somewhat healthy.  I would do what Shaun says.  Test, if your still at 6.3 then do the calculator mix to raise it to 7, dose, and test again at lunch.  Alk in sump, calcium in display.  6.3 is mostly safe so if you can slowly ride this thing up to 7 you should be in good shape.  At this point it's better to under dose than over dose but try and keep it above 6.3.

 

You will need to dose manually 3 or 4 times a day (ok, maybe twice a day is good) until you get the doser fixed.

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Harry - Check your MAG. This has been something I have been preaching for some time. This is one the more difficult parameters to raise. Once they go down they tend to stay down. Even with consistent H20 changes. 

 

As well check your ALK for the next couple of days in the morning, midday ( peak lighting ) and night. You should get a feel of the usage. 

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3 hours ago, 4x5 said:

I'd focus on getting your doser back online as soon as possible (and keep it working and keep the containers full :slap:), else your tank is going to be very unstable and with things being stressed they want stability. As to your tests, I don't think you'd use 3dKH overnight though - that seems a little excessive, so one has to assume your test last night or this morning wasn't accurate. Test again and if it comes out at 6.3 again, then do a single dose up to 7 and you'll be in a good spot to keep it stable at. 

 

Restored dosing system to (hopefully) work like new- see below. I tested with both Hanna and API (to confirm) both times, so I'm not sure whats up with the 3dkh change. Corals look the same, tons of PE even on the two colonies that are STNing.

 

3 hours ago, markalot said:

 

This is excellent news, it tells me your dosing last night was correct and your testing was off.  A drop from 7.5 to 6.3 is more reasonable and if it did happen it tells us acros are still using Alk so somewhat healthy.  I would do what Shaun says.  Test, if your still at 6.3 then do the calculator mix to raise it to 7, dose, and test again at lunch.  Alk in sump, calcium in display.  6.3 is mostly safe so if you can slowly ride this thing up to 7 you should be in good shape.  At this point it's better to under dose than over dose but try and keep it above 6.3.

 

You will need to dose manually 3 or 4 times a day (ok, maybe twice a day is good) until you get the doser fixed.

 

I hope it was just my testing that was off, but I did confirm with API- two kits indicating the same thing leads me to think it was accurate. No precipitation, so perhaps an issue with Magnesium, which will be checked tonight. Doser- see below.  

 

3 hours ago, DaveFason said:

Harry - Check your MAG. This has been something I have been preaching for some time. This is one the more difficult parameters to raise. Once they go down they tend to stay down. Even with consistent H20 changes. 

 

As well check your ALK for the next couple of days in the morning, midday ( peak lighting ) and night. You should get a feel of the usage. 

 

Will check MAG tonight when I get home. 

 

 

This morning:

  • Tested Alk at 6.2, added 30ml Ca/Alk to raise it a bit.¬†
  • Replaced DI Resin (Both canisters) as well as the RO membrane
  • "Restored" dosing system with new tubing, doser reset with new calibration, everything run with RODI for a while to clean out the heads, containers cleaned, new Ca/Alk mixing,¬†etc.

 

Program:

Ca (5ml)   Alk (5ml)  Mg (0ml)

00:00       01:30              

03:00       04:30

06:00       07:30

09:00       10:30

12:00       13:30

15:00       16:30

18:00       19:30

21:00       22:30

 

I have B Ionic magnesium but have not yet tested to see where its currently at since the last water change.  

 

Next:

  • Continued testing Alk, also test Mg. The refill of¬†Hanna ULR P04 reagent will arrive today.
  • Clean out ATO containers that have residue at the bottom.¬†
  • Get Apex Fusion running¬†again
  • More water changes and more feeding

 

 

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*deleted*

 

a8iMfSS.jpg

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Editing the warmth to get out the blue of an iPhone photo turns out.... not that bad. 

 

M89g8Na.jpg

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Alk 6.2, same as this morning but I dosed over 40ml during the day. So I need more than that. Tomorrow will be first day of automatic dosing, and I will begin at 48ml.

 

Watching all the alkalinity go into the tank, the white dissolving, makes me think of how much the corals were starving. 

 

Preparing another 20g of water using 0tds for the first time in half a year. Tomorrow morning I will finish with the doser, raid the pantry of vinigar¬†to do the PP4's, and get the damn apex going. The Apex has been disconnected so long that it is 18 minutes behind ūüėā

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Here's a good article to read when you have time.  It's a recent post but talks about the importance of stability and how if only one param is out of whack there may not be much damage while if multiple params are out then the results may be worse.  Also discusses base recession when KH is not stable.

 

https://www.reef2reef.com/ams/stability-and-consistency-of-a-reef-tank.323/

 

 

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4 hours ago, markalot said:

Here's a good article to read when you have time.  It's a recent post but talks about the importance of stability and how if only one param is out of whack there may not be much damage while if multiple params are out then the results may be worse.  Also discusses base recession when KH is not stable.

 

https://www.reef2reef.com/ams/stability-and-consistency-of-a-reef-tank.323/

 

 

That was a great article. I also really enjoyed Jason Fix's talk at Reef Currents 2017. It's a little long and somewhat rambling, but a lot of what he shared regarding how he runs his tanks was consistent with these observations. It was also interested to see how simple he keeps things. For the most part, just blue T5 and LED lights, skimming, and biweekly 30% water changes, with alk, calcium, and mag added to the new water before putting it in the tank. No computer automation, no automated dosing, no trace elements, no special amino acids, no kalk, no exotic spectrum lighting. And he doesn't even test Ph.

 

I think the best takeaway was his three priorities: #1: stable parameters, especially alk. #2: LOTS of flow, #3: lighting.

 

 

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10 hours ago, markalot said:

Here's a good article to read when you have time.  It's a recent post but talks about the importance of stability and how if only one param is out of whack there may not be much damage while if multiple params are out then the results may be worse.  Also discusses base recession when KH is not stable.

 

https://www.reef2reef.com/ams/stability-and-consistency-of-a-reef-tank.323/

 

 

 

My phone isn't opening that oddly, I'll read it tomorrow on my laptop! 

 

Alk back down to 6.0. Magnesium fine at 1320. Calcium 490. Aghhhhhh. 

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Update: Looks like it's back on track. Alk stabilizing around 7.6 with 60ml daily. 

 

I lost 2 frags (of larger colonies), 20% of two colonies which were trimmed and are recovering and 50% of another. The one with 50% was that yellow one that is also being stung by LPS. The recession stopped but I haven't trimmed it- I'm seeing what will happen. 

 

I also used chemiclean to clean up the cyano from the nutrient imbalance, love that stuff. 

 

. 

jGOhmMO.jpg

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22 hours ago, Nstocks said:

.

 

ūüéČūüéČ

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That has got to be one of the sexiest tanks I've ever seen:wub::lol:

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Tank is looking amazing Harry, sorry to hear about the recent RTN due to Alk. Believe me, we have all been there. The fear of busted equipment is the reason why I still do weekly water tests.

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