Anthrax & Gangs! 50G SCA

[Lawnman]

I’m your first follower 🙂 

[thecoralbeauty]

4 hours ago, Lawnman said:

I’m your first follower 🙂 

haha thanks, my main instagram isn't really for fishy things, i figured it would make more sense to make a separate linked account so as not to spam all of my acquaintances 🙂 

[thecoralbeauty]

Newest development- the filefish has been nipping my favorite clam. I caught him at it when working from home yesterday, and so he is now spending some quality time in my sump. 

Never did see him go after any aptasia... so he will be rehomed. 

[jack1978]

This tank has turned into quite the beauty! Nicely done.

[teenyreef]

9 hours ago, mwhitelock said:

Newest development- the filefish has been nipping my favorite clam. I caught him at it when working from home yesterday, and so he is now spending some quality time in my sump. 

Never did see him go after any aptasia... so he will be rehomed. 

Well that escalated quickly 

[thecoralbeauty]

14 hours ago, teenyreef said:

Well that escalated quickly 

We have a zero-clam-nipping-tolerance policy in this tank! 

 

Yea- not cool. Glad I caught him in the act as fast as I did though- probably would’ve kept him in there and started stressing about why my clams weren’t happy and fiddling with other things while they continued to be assaulted. Doesn’t seem like he tasted any of my corals though.... 

 

question now is what to do about my aptasia farm. 😱

[teenyreef]

15 hours ago, mwhitelock said:

We have a zero-clam-nipping-tolerance policy in this tank! 

 

Yea- not cool. Glad I caught him in the act as fast as I did though- probably would’ve kept him in there and started stressing about why my clams weren’t happy and fiddling with other things while they continued to be assaulted. Doesn’t seem like he tasted any of my corals though.... 

 

question now is what to do about my aptasia farm. 😱

I've tried peppermint shrimp three times. The first time they went to town on the aiptasia and they were gone in two days. The other two sets of shrimp were less effective. But I don't get a lot of aiptasia in the two tanks where they hang out, so they may be doing the job but just missing one or two every once in a while.

[thecoralbeauty]

Tempted to try them but it seems like everyone says they are very hit and miss.

i get some satisfaction from my aptasia and vermetid snail murdering sprees- but- I do get behind with it.

 

last night, I believe one of my rock flower anemones spawned. When I left for the gym this morning around 4 am I walked through the tank room and noticed the water was extremely cloudy and both flower Nem’s were extended and puffy. Lights were off- as it was the middle

of the night.

got back from the gym, tested, all params are normal. Skimmer cranking away. Been keeping an eye on it through my security cam today and the cloudiness is dissipating. Not sure what else it could be, if not spawning. I didn’t see either Nem actually producing anything. 

[thecoralbeauty]

Latest update- added some macro algae to my sump and have been skimming on the wet side, i have a ton of diatoms blooming and not sure where the source could be. My first suspicion was one of my frag racks, since I can't confirm what it was made of and it is always covered in most of the diatoms. So, since I removed it, hopefully things will go back to normal. I guess all I can do at this point is wait and see if I was right. And, if not, remove the next suspect. 

 

Corals all happy, minus the red goni, that I've had for over a year and has grown from a sliver to a golf ball. it inflates but won't extend it's polyps, instead secreting snot periodically. Been messing with the flow around it to see if that's the issue, but nothing helps. Maybe it's just mad about the diatoms as well. 

 

Always something in this hobby!

[thecoralbeauty]

so, i was wrong. it's dino's. 

[ninjamyst]

Dino nuked my tank.  Lost all my SPS, zoas, and more.  What's your nitrate and phosphate?  

[ReefGoat]

1 hour ago, mwhitelock said:

so, i was wrong. it's dino's. 

Did you id it under a microscope? If you can get a positive Id on the species of Dino there are specific treatments for each kind. 

[thecoralbeauty]

3 hours ago, ninjamyst said:

Dino nuked my tank.  Lost all my SPS, zoas, and more.  What's your nitrate and phosphate?  

dont have a phos kit, nitrates are 2.5ppm. 

2 hours ago, ReefGoat said:

Did you id it under a microscope? If you can get a positive Id on the species of Dino there are specific treatments for each kind. 

Didn't ID under a scope, but didn't respond to cyano treatment at all, comes and goes with photoperiod, and while it hasn't reached the stringy stage, it was getting bubbles on it. I also siphoned some out in a cup, shook it vigorously, filtered through a paper towel, and within 30 min of ambient light in the glass, it had clumped back together. 

 

I siphoned all i could get manually with a 10gal water change. then covered the tank and killed the lights and will try to keep them off till sunday afternoon. (72 hours). I'm keeping the skimmer on and stuck some carbon in the sump to absorb any ickyness from when they die... 

 

hopefully i caught this early enough. 

 

Edit: Also just ordered some phosban for the sump and a phos test kit- sure the blackout will kill them, but i dont want them to come back either. if I've got excess phosphate going on for some reason, that needs to be taken care of. 

[thecoralbeauty]

Something I've noticed when researching dino's this morning is the huge difference in opinion:

Some people say blackouts help because dinos are autotrophic, others say they dont help because they are mixotrophic.

Some say add GFO, carbon, and get phos and nitrate to 0, others say DOSE nitrate and phos so they DONT reach 0.... 

 

I'm just over here wondering if adding phytoplankton and copepods would be helpful, to boost some biodiversity? 

But then i read articles saying water change every day until they're gone- and i don't want to be adding phyto, etc, if i'm just going to suck it back out again in a water change the next day.

 

So- backstory I had been keeping to myself: Reefbuilders (Jake) started to makeover my tank back in early December. I didn't mention it here because he was toying with the idea of a youtube video, but I'm pretty sure that's no longer happening. So, here's what he did: Had me rescape and add lace rock- which I did and showed here, proudly 🙂 He then pulled everything out of my sump- which had never been cleaned in 3 years, whoa- gave me a new protein skimmer (i hadn't been running one), pulled a lot of ceramic media out and old gross filter floss out, (left the handful of bio balls I had in there) and told me to stop running carbon- ever. He said it was contributing to my yellow tang's HLLE. Sure enough, the tang immediately looked better, corals colored up, things have been booming the last month. He also added a doser- calcium and alk, and adjusted my lighting a bit. Params have been tested at least every three days since, and are steady, calcium is at 390, alk is around 9, mg at 1290. Not sure of my ph. Started adding aminos and trace elements to my top off water. Still stuck to my 5 gal/week water changes- (thats all I had really been doing before, with my carbon. tank was stable and fine for years,  but not blooming.) So, when i asked Jake about the dino's yesterday, he suggested running GFO in the sump. I don't have a reactor or anything like that, so I had Phosguard ordered off Amazon instead for phosphate and silicate absorption. Imagine my surprise when I've come across other forums and articles saying DON'T run GFO when you have dinos, don't strip your nutrients, that encourages growth.  

 

In the last two weeks, when I started seeing dinos, I had just transitioned back from my red sea coral pro (the alk in that mix was 11.5!! what?!) to my old favorite tropic marin (alk is 9, keeps things much happier when I have to do bigger water changes). I had also been dosing a capful of brightwell's microbacter each day in my sump- I was worried he had pulled out a lot of my bacteria soupy goodness- he disagreed and said it was just a nitrate liability to have all that in my sump- and have some macros in my sump circulating in a chamber under a halogen light (currently that is turned off too, for the blackout). 

 

So, lots of changes recently, and it makes it really hard to pin down exactly what caused this... but, Jake knows what he is doing, so I didn't protest. But, here we are now, with dinos. I wonder if the change in salt affected the PH which encouraged the dinos...? or perhaps the macroalgae has upset the nutrient balance? Both of those changes happened within the last two weeks, when I first started seeing dinos, when I first thought they might be diatoms or cyano. (They weren't stringy, and weren't collecting bubbles at first.) Another thought from Jake was that since I use tap water to mix my salt(don't crucify me... I've only ever run tap water- I bought at RODI unit a few years ago, used it, saw no difference in my tank- if anything, tap made things puff up more. We have good tap water in Colorado), the water could seasonally change, and have more phosphates or silicates than usual. I'll test the tap water when the phos kit comes in. And pull out my RODI unit from under the sink tonight and maybe fire it up for the next few water changes at least. Can't hurt, anyway.

 

Long post, lots of thoughts... any of your thoughts are welcome!

[vlangel]

8 minutes ago, mwhitelock said:

Something I've noticed when researching dino's this morning is the huge difference in opinion:

Some people say blackouts help because dinos are autotrophic, others say they dont help because they are mixotrophic.

Some say add GFO, carbon, and get phos and nitrate to 0, others say DOSE nitrate and phos so they DONT reach 0.... 

 

I'm just over here wondering if adding phytoplankton and copepods would be helpful, to boost some biodiversity? 

But then i read articles saying water change every day until they're gone- and i don't want to be adding phyto, etc, if i'm just going to suck it back out again in a water change the next day.

 

So- backstory I had been keeping to myself: Reefbuilders (Jake) started to makeover my tank back in early December. I didn't mention it here because he was toying with the idea of a youtube video, but I'm pretty sure that's no longer happening. So, here's what he did: Had me rescape and add lace rock- which I did and showed here, proudly 🙂 He then pulled everything out of my sump- which had never been cleaned in 3 years, whoa- gave me a new protein skimmer (i hadn't been running one), pulled a lot of ceramic media out and old gross filter floss out, (left the handful of bio balls I had in there) and told me to stop running carbon- ever. He said it was contributing to my yellow tang's HLLE. Sure enough, the tang immediately looked better, corals colored up, things have been booming the last month. He also added a doser- calcium and alk, and adjusted my lighting a bit. Params have been tested at least every three days since, and are steady, calcium is at 390, alk is around 9, mg at 1290. Not sure of my ph. Started adding aminos and trace elements to my top off water. Still stuck to my 5 gal/week water changes- (thats all I had really been doing before, with my carbon. tank was stable and fine for years,  but not blooming.) So, when i asked Jake about the dino's yesterday, he suggested running GFO in the sump. I don't have a reactor or anything like that, so I had Phosguard ordered off Amazon instead for phosphate and silicate absorption. Imagine my surprise when I've come across other forums and articles saying DON'T run GFO when you have dinos, don't strip your nutrients, that encourages growth.  

 

In the last two weeks, when I started seeing dinos, I had just transitioned back from my red sea coral pro (the alk in that mix was 11.5!! what?!) to my old favorite tropic marin (alk is 9, keeps things much happier when I have to do bigger water changes). I had also been dosing a capful of brightwell's microbacter each day in my sump- I was worried he had pulled out a lot of my bacteria soupy goodness- he disagreed and said it was just a nitrate liability to have all that in my sump- and have some macros in my sump circulating in a chamber under a halogen light (currently that is turned off too, for the blackout). 

 

So, lots of changes recently, and it makes it really hard to pin down exactly what caused this... but, Jake knows what he is doing, so I didn't protest. But, here we are now, with dinos. I wonder if the change in salt affected the PH which encouraged the dinos...? or perhaps the macroalgae has upset the nutrient balance? Both of those changes happened within the last two weeks, when I first started seeing dinos, when I first thought they might be diatoms or cyano. (They weren't stringy, and weren't collecting bubbles at first.) Another thought from Jake was that since I use tap water to mix my salt(don't crucify me... I've only ever run tap water- I bought at RODI unit a few years ago, used it, saw no difference in my tank- if anything, tap made things puff up more. We have good tap water in Colorado), the water could seasonally change, and have more phosphates or silicates than usual. I'll test the tap water when the phos kit comes in. And pull out my RODI unit from under the sink tonight and maybe fire it up for the next few water changes at least. Can't hurt, anyway.

 

Long post, lots of thoughts... any of your thoughts are welcome!

I am no expert but I would not use the gfo unless the phosphates are through the roof which I doubt.  I prefer to run high nutrient tanks (down right dirty) and I have never ever had dinos.  I have had cyano however.  When using macro algae for export, I am leaning toward keeping the nitrates and phosphates in a 30 to 1 ratio which is good for macro algaes.  That means I want my nitrates around 20 ppm and my phosphates around .5.  Doing that and having good flow from a gyre seems to have cleared my tank up nicely.  

 

You can lower phosphates in a more controlled less drastic way with phosphate x rather than strip the water with gfo.  Just my 2 cents.

[thecoralbeauty]

23 minutes ago, vlangel said:

I am no expert but I would not use the gfo unless the phosphates are through the roof which I doubt.  I prefer to run high nutrient tanks (down right dirty) and I have never ever had dinos.  I have had cyano however.  When using macro algae for export, I am leaning toward keeping the nitrates and phosphates in a 30 to 1 ratio which is good for macro algaes.  That means I want my nitrates around 20 ppm and my phosphates around .5.  Doing that and having good flow from a gyre seems to have cleared my tank up nicely.  

 

You can lower phosphates in a more controlled less drastic way with phosphate x rather than strip the water with gfo.  Just my 2 cents.

Won’t nitrates that high mess with my corals? Do they mess with yours? I have a few sps- a pocci, birdsnests, and tons of LPS and clams. 

 

Im curious to know what my phosphates might be, cant wait to actually test.

 

also tempted to just blackout for 24-36 hours instead of the whole 73? 

 

A multi-prong approach seems most wise, but it’s tough to strategize when there are so many differing opinions. 

[vlangel]

1 hour ago, mwhitelock said:

Won’t nitrates that high mess with my corals? Do they mess with yours? I have a few sps- a pocci, birdsnests, and tons of LPS and clams. 

 

Im curious to know what my phosphates might be, cant wait to actually test.

 

also tempted to just blackout for 24-36 hours instead of the whole 73? 

 

A multi-prong approach seems most wise, but it’s tough to strategize when there are so many differing opinions. 

I doubt the change of salt had anything to do with the dinos.  From what I know of dinos and cyano is that they are opportunistic, and when the enviroment does not favor macro algae (meaning does not have enough nutrients and trace elements) or nuisance algae like HA or film algae and the tank becomes ultra low nutrient, then they take over.

 

Higher nitrates in the 10-25 ppm range will not mess with LPS or the clam, in fact they will love it.  I do not have a lot of SPS, and none of the ones that you have.  I have heard however that its the acros that do not do well with the nitrates over 10.  My euphillia and softies like the higher nitrates.  I get nice puffy fat coral with good color.  If phosphates get too high then the color turns drab but the coral still grow well.  The coral, even SPS want to eat and they feed on nitrates and phosphates.  They can not thrive on light alone.  The trick is to have enough nitrates/phosphates to be available to the coral and the macro algae but not excess to fuel nuisance algae.  Typically macro algae out competes nuisance algaes unless the phosphates are too high.  My guess is when Jake cleaned out your sump of that 'bacteria soupy goodness' that you lost a lot of the work horses (pods, bacterias and diversity) that were keeping your tank in balance.  

 

Definitely diversity helps with dinos.  When I worked in the lfs nobody ever had dinos because in the late 90s and early 2000s everyone started their tanks with live rock.  It was not until folks in an attempt to control HHs and began using dead dry rock that dinos appeared.

 

You could add more diversity by accepting some sand from other reefer's tanks.  Also add the bacteria and pods. Those are nice safe steps.  Maybe keep your nitrates under 10-15 and the phosphates in the .25 range if that feels safer to you as another step.  I would not be afraid of a 3 day black out but thats a bandaid and not dealing with the root problem.  I would not run your skimmer until you are dealing with nuisance algaes like HA or film algae.  However, as soon as you see any of those nuisance algaes start the skimmer up because the dinos are going to die and you want that dead/dying dino residue removed as quick as possible.  Otherwise you will have a nuisance algae bloom.  Also catch the dinos in floss, socks or filter pads and change them frequently.  A lot of dinos strains are water borne when the lights go out so you can catch some of them.

Again, I am not an expert and have never had dinos.  This is my opinion on what will help but you need to decide from your own research if my methodology makes sense.

 

[thecoralbeauty]

40 minutes ago, vlangel said:

I doubt the change of salt had anything to do with the dinos.  From what I know of dinos and cyano is that they are opportunistic, and when the enviroment does not favor macro algae (meaning does not have enough nutrients and trace elements) or nuisance algae like HA or film algae and the tank becomes ultra low nutrient, then they take over.

 

Higher nitrates in the 10-25 ppm range will not mess with LPS or the clam, in fact they will love it.  I do not have a lot of SPS, and none of the ones that you have.  I have heard however that its the acros that do not do well with the nitrates over 10.  My euphillia and softies like the higher nitrates.  I get nice puffy fat coral with good color.  If phosphates get too high then the color turns drab but the coral still grow well.  The coral, even SPS want to eat and they feed on nitrates and phosphates.  They can not thrive on light alone.  The trick is to have enough nitrates/phosphates to be available to the coral and the macro algae but not excess to fuel nuisance algae.  Typically macro algae out competes nuisance algaes unless the phosphates are too high.  My guess is when Jake cleaned out your sump of that 'bacteria soupy goodness' that you lost a lot of the work horses (pods, bacterias and diversity) that were keeping your tank in balance.  

 

Definitely diversity helps with dinos.  When I worked in the lfs nobody ever had dinos because in the late 90s and early 2000s everyone started their tanks with live rock.  It was not until folks in an attempt to control HHs and began using dead dry rock that dinos appeared.

 

You could add more diversity by accepting some sand from other reefer's tanks.  Also add the bacteria and pods. Those are nice safe steps.  Maybe keep your nitrates under 10-15 and the phosphates in the .25 range if that feels safer to you as another step.  I would not be afraid of a 3 day black out but thats a bandaid and not dealing with the root problem.  I would not run your skimmer until you are dealing with nuisance algaes like HA or film algae.  However, as soon as you see any of those nuisance algaes start the skimmer up because the dinos are going to die and you want that dead/dying dino residue removed as quick as possible.  Otherwise you will have a nuisance algae bloom.  Also catch the dinos in floss, socks or filter pads and change them frequently.  A lot of dinos strains are water borne when the lights go out so you can catch some of them.

Again, I am not an expert and have never had dinos.  This is my opinion on what will help but you need to decide from your own research if my methodology makes sense.

 

It does. Biodiversity is the main point and probably the root problem. 

Dont get me wrong- he pulled out a ton of old filter floss and carbon bags that had been in there probably years, because they were buried, but it was prime housing for pods and bacteria. 

I still have lots of pods that I see, but hardly the real estate for them anymore. Thus, probably less for bacteria too.

 

I guess i was thinking of the blackout as a way to buy me some time while I plan the full on attack. But I’m not sure what “attack” to take rather than just try to get things back in balance somehow. 

[vlangel]

32 minutes ago, mwhitelock said:

It does. Biodiversity is the main point and probably the root problem. 

Dont get me wrong- he pulled out a ton of old filter floss and carbon bags that had been in there probably years, because they were buried, but it was prime housing for pods and bacteria. 

I still have lots of pods that I see, but hardly the real estate for them anymore. Thus, probably less for bacteria too.

 

I guess i was thinking of the blackout as a way to buy me some time while I plan the full on attack. But I’m not sure what “attack” to take rather than just try to get things back in balance somehow. 

I hear you! Dinos are terrifying so you don't want to stumble into making it worse.  Check out Ninja's thread because I remember that she fought dino's and eventually beat them without tearing the tank down.  I think she did have losses however, but maybe that was before she found what worked.

[thecoralbeauty]

1 hour ago, vlangel said:

I hear you! Dinos are terrifying so you don't want to stumble into making it worse.  Check out Ninja's thread because I remember that she fought dino's and eventually beat them without tearing the tank down.  I think she did have losses however, but maybe that was before she found what worked.

 

21 hours ago, ninjamyst said:

Dino nuked my tank.  Lost all my SPS, zoas, and more.  What's your nitrate and phosphate?  

Just read back several pages in your tanks thread, ninja- yikes!! Glad you’re on the other side of it though. And thanks for sharing all of the details- ugly as it got. 

 

fortunately, I just have Dinos right now. Lawnmower blenny and tang are always on top of any algae issues I’ve got, and I have enough flow that Cyano isn’t an issue. Just the Dino’s.

 

after reading all that, and taking dawn’s methodology into account, I think I’ll focus on keeping it simple. Maximize biodiversity as much as possible- sand from other tanks, bacteria, phyto and pods.

 

as far as the nitrate/phosphate, I need to figure out where my phosphates are, and how my tap is reading. Then I’ll make a decision. I think the test is arriving tomorrow, I may run some RODI this afternoon and get a bucket mixing just in case. 

 

And honestly, that’s the most debated point- are dinos a result of too little nutrients, or an excess? Does anyone know for sure? 

[ninjamyst]

My issue was low phosphate and nitrate for too long combined with instability.  I initially tried combating algae issue by running tons of carbon / phosguard / purigen and doing bacteria.  The sudden nose dive in phosphate and nitrate caused dino to appear.  My tank see-saw between dino / cyano / GHA for months as I tried different things.  Things improved dramatically once I started monitoring nitrate and DOSING nitrate to keep it at 2ppm.  Then dino went away.  GHA came back but 2 doses of fluconzale took care of that. 

 

My bet is that dosing MB7 fueled your dino outbreak...

 

By the way, I am a dude but on the internet, who can tell who is who nowadays...hahahah

[vlangel]

7 minutes ago, ninjamyst said:

 

 

By the way, I am a dude but on the internet, who can tell who is who nowadays...hahahah

Oops, so sorry Ninja.  My apology.  If it makes you feel any better some folks thought I was a dude but I am a gal, LOL.  Like you said, its tough to know on the internet.

[thecoralbeauty]

2 hours ago, ninjamyst said:

My issue was low phosphate and nitrate for too long combined with instability.  I initially tried combating algae issue by running tons of carbon / phosguard / purigen and doing bacteria.  The sudden nose dive in phosphate and nitrate caused dino to appear.  My tank see-saw between dino / cyano / GHA for months as I tried different things.  Things improved dramatically once I started monitoring nitrate and DOSING nitrate to keep it at 2ppm.  Then dino went away.  GHA came back but 2 doses of fluconzale took care of that. 

 

My bet is that dosing MB7 fueled your dino outbreak...

 

By the way, I am a dude but on the internet, who can tell who is who nowadays...hahahah

MB7?

[thecoralbeauty]

oh! Microbacter 7.

 

Well, I'm pretty sure I was dosing after i noted the dinos (that i thought were cyano/diatoms), so i'm not entirely sure. might've made it all worse?

 

In favor of dawn's advice earlier, i stopped and got a small bottle of sachem's stability and also imaginitariums biological booster. not sure if they're all the same soup of bacteria as brightwell, or possibly different. i also grabbed some ceramic media to give more surface area in my sump, and a small bag of "live" sand, i added a cup. I've got a friend coming over tomorrow with a cup of their sand from their system, too. hopefully enough different sources of bacteria will help. i also changed the filter floss- it was nearly black.

 

after i took off the blackout towels, no dinos in sight- it was only 24 hours but they  didn't re-appear in the short time i had the blues on this afternoon before they shut off. i'm not holding my breath though... it can't have been that easy.

 

not sure where phosphate levels are so i'm holding off on the phosguard.... but nitrates are holding at 2.5. ph is in the 7.5-8 range. wish it was a touch higher, but its not terrible, i suppose.

this tank has always been relatively low nitrates. i suspect due to the clams? so 2.5 is ok with me for now, i think. 

 

also dosed some phytoplankton. 

 

fingers crossed. 

[vlangel]

15 hours ago, mwhitelock said:

oh! Microbacter 7.

 

Well, I'm pretty sure I was dosing after i noted the dinos (that i thought were cyano/diatoms), so i'm not entirely sure. might've made it all worse?

 

In favor of dawn's advice earlier, i stopped and got a small bottle of sachem's stability and also imaginitariums biological booster. not sure if they're all the same soup of bacteria as brightwell, or possibly different. i also grabbed some ceramic media to give more surface area in my sump, and a small bag of "live" sand, i added a cup. I've got a friend coming over tomorrow with a cup of their sand from their system, too. hopefully enough different sources of bacteria will help. i also changed the filter floss- it was nearly black.

 

after i took off the blackout towels, no dinos in sight- it was only 24 hours but they  didn't re-appear in the short time i had the blues on this afternoon before they shut off. i'm not holding my breath though... it can't have been that easy.

 

not sure where phosphate levels are so i'm holding off on the phosguard.... but nitrates are holding at 2.5. ph is in the 7.5-8 range. wish it was a touch higher, but its not terrible, i suppose.

this tank has always been relatively low nitrates. i suspect due to the clams? so 2.5 is ok with me for now, i think. 

 

also dosed some phytoplankton. 

 

fingers crossed. 

Wow, you moved on the biodiversity fast.  I'm hoping that you see positive results as well but it does seem that that would be too easy.  Still, not many folks try the biodiversity route and hopefully there is something to that.