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Unarmored dinoflagellates?


Pinner Reef

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Pinner Reef

This video is the best I could capture; it's 40x magnification as viewed through my phone (Galaxy S5) and dirty optics. :(

 

Skip to 0:55min for the most stable picture.

 

 

I'll try and get some good still frames in the meantime.

 

 

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Pinner Reef

Cool B)

 

Not if they are what I think they are

 

 

Sweet, what app or widget are you using.

 

None... just lining up the phone's camera to the microscope's eye peice. It's a PITA

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gulfsurfer101

10-4! I'm currently in the middle of a two week blackout trying to battle these damn dinoflagellates in my 75g. I'm hoping the two weeks is enough to starve them.

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10-4! I'm currently in the middle of a two week blackout trying to battle these damn dinoflagellates in my 75g. I'm hoping the two weeks is enough to starve them.

Not the way to go about it. You will lose your corals after 2 weeks. this is a older article but full of useful information. http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2006-11/rhf/index.phpBio pellets, GFO, carbon and h202 dosing worked for me. Battled it for about 9 months.

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Not if they are what I think they are

 

 

Haha so I take it they're from your tank then? No it's definitely not cool if that's the case.

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Pinner Reef

 

Haha so I take it they're from your tank then? No it's definitely not cool if that's the case.

 

yep, they're from my tank [face/palm]

 

Not the way to go about it. You will lose your corals after 2 weeks. this is a older article but full of useful information. http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2006-11/rhf/index.phpBio pellets, GFO, carbon and h202 dosing worked for me. Battled it for about 9 months.

 

 

I was actually just reading that... currently buried in reading about this subject

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I was so ready to nuke my tank and get out of the hobby. I honestly dont know how I got rid of them but they are finally gone. Good luck with your tank. I think the bio pellets and lower light cycle may have been key. But I did not track water params or make any useful data to see if what i was doing was actually helping. I have been Dino free now for a year :D

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Nickbruh510

Dude I had a spurt of Dino's and bryopsis overnight I swear maybe a cycle from switch tank syndrome 25 gallon to a 20 gallon sump actual volume and 40 breeder, I did not dose mag for three days and dosed twice the amount of Kent marine tech m and I swear next day all of it turned white nothing died my NEM didn't fully open and mag jumped 50 pp but I swear dude just do it I was surprised as hell and not its clean after five days from initial dose just saying

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Pinner Reef

I was so ready to nuke my tank and get out of the hobby. I honestly dont know how I got rid of them but they are finally gone. Good luck with your tank. I think the bio pellets and lower light cycle may have been key. But I did not track water params or make any useful data to see if what i was doing was actually helping. I have been Dino free now for a year :D

 

I don't know who you are Sancho, but you've read my mind. I've been debating that entire scenero myself for the past few days. It's especially hard because I've had this particular tank for six years in various configurations. As such, I have become a bit disenchanted with the system. On the other had there have been some inhabitants I've had for almost as long, if not as long. I couldn't sell them if I wanted to at this point. And I can't trust a whole lot of other reefers in my area with them.

 

I've got a few game plans in mind that I might be willing to try.

 

Dude I had a spurt of Dino's and bryopsis overnight I swear maybe a cycle from switch tank syndrome 25 gallon to a 20 gallon sump actual volume and 40 breeder, I did not dose mag for three days and dosed twice the amount of Kent marine tech m and I swear next day all of it turned white nothing died my NEM didn't fully open and mag jumped 50 pp but I swear dude just do it I was surprised as hell and not its clean after five days from initial dose just saying

 

:huh: Punctuation helps.

 

I have a little GHA to go with this; but no Bryopsis.

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My outbreak happened at the 7 year mark on my tank. I think the live rock is starting leach Phosphates back into the tank. That is the only thing I can think of. It happened over night to me and I spent almost a year trying to get rid of it. I never ran a fuge but I am pretty sure adding the bio pellets helped. Dinos need light and nutrients. I use NSW and that may have n been the initial cause as we have red tides here from time to time but if that was the case more guys on my local forum would have experienced the same thing.

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Your microscope pics show how easily they can spread when they are buggered. I tried scrubbing the rock but to find that after I did that in a couple days it was worse. Rob them of light and nutrients and with patience maybe you win this battle. I only wish I kept a log to track what worked and what didn't.

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Pinner Reef

Thanks Jedimasterben, that was the link I was hoping for. I will say however they look and move exactly like Amphidinium sp. (little wang and all). Although mine seem to be about twice as large as what he had pictured...

 

Reguardless, I've decided to try and fight whatever these lil bastards are. :angry:

 

I've got some more reasearch to do but I have a general idea as to where I'm going to start.

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Jellyingabout

Right my first post ever so I'm gonna try to make it count.

 

I've never came across a solid solution in the hobby to dealing with a nuisance dinoflagellate bloom in a tank as I don't think people are sure what starts them off. Recovery can take months if it happens at all. So let me put on my marine biologist hat for a second and waffle a bit, shoo me away if it get boring. I've just wrote a paper on dinoflagellate succession so my head is swimming in this stuff. (ba dum dum tshh)

 

The two most common phytoplankton we get in our tanks are unsurprisingly the two hardiest. Diatoms and Dinoflagellates.

Diatoms generally are good, they need silicate (S), Nitrate (N) and Phosphate (P).

Dinos are generally bad they mainly need only (N) and (P).

Diatoms are widely regarded as better competitors in good water conditions when nutrients are close to the redfield ratio (16N:15Si:1P), if silicate is present and (N) and (P) are in typical ratio then they will out compete dinos hands down. but dinos are quite good at dominating in low nutrient waters, also if there is no (S) then diatoms will just die giving way to the dino that don't need the (S). For this reason I would never blindly lower nutrients without knowing why first because dinos are phytoplankton well adapted for the low nutrient environment.

 

in the ocean diatoms dominate most spring blooms in the oceans, as they die there cells are recycled into the water by bacteria, (P) is quickly recycled, (N) next but (S) is by far the slowest to be recycled. So when the diatom bloom crashes as winter approaches, light fades or they run out of silicate, or however they wish to die, the waters end up briefly very high (P), then high in (N) and (P) relative to (S). This provides an environment that dinos can dominate over diatoms in.

 

Recent research suggests that low nitrates, specifically a low N/P ratio can lead to dino blooms. We are constantly striving to hit 0 with our nitrates in our tanks (a very unnatural condition for one) meaning our N/P ratios can drop very low as its very rare that hobbyists consider the nutrient balance rather than just nutrients. This is supported by Sancho's theory that his rock was leaking phosphate, if it was and his nitrates were artificially low like most tanks then his N?P ratio would have plummeted, a good time for a dino bloom.

 

Whilst I have been lucky to never have a bad dino bloom here's what I would do:

1) Provide a source of silcates, (e.g. a small amount of fresh sand) this will encourage diatoms to take over the dino bloom, diatoms being much easier to get rid of and less toxic, this will be a temporary fix.

2) Stop running any nitrate filters if you have them (the smelly sulphur kind)

3) Rip as much phosphates out of the water as you can as dinos have a higher dependency on phosphates than other phytoplankton (e.g. run rowaphos in a cannister)

4) Run UV if you have it, recent research suggests high bacterial cell counts in the water can aid dino blooms as even the more photo dependant of dino species eat them, your bacteria populations will recover after.

 

Aim for a nutrient ratio of 16N:1P (:15S if you test for it) in whatever units.


Sorry that was sooooo much longer than i first expected, but ah well i did say i was swimming in it.

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Pinner Reef

First off allow me to say :welcome: to N-R.com Jellyingabout!

 

Thank you very much for the information and the time you took for said input. I'll consider it along the other research I've been reading. I'll admit I'm a bit lost at this point as all the remedies I've read seem to be species specific and in many cases completely contradicting. The history of my system does support your outlook though.

 

About a month ago I had a nutrient spike which led to a significant Green Hair Algae and Cyanobacteria. No doubt the Dinos were in there at the time but they are similar in appearance to the Cyano. The first thing I did was strip all the Nitrates and Phosphates (I do not test for Silicates) attempting to starve these two out. It was after those two algae died I saw the Dino population explode. After this the N and P stayed low which hints the Dinos are feeding off them.

 

In my research I have also found that slightly elevated nitrates can kill some species of Dinos although it was a different looking type than I am currently battling. The person who was a hobbyist and as such there was very little scientific data to support the theory.

Here is that thread: http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1620464

 

Many other individuals report success with nutrient export in extreme which has me super confused. :unsure:

 

Other methods I'm researching are elevating Ph to 8.4-8.6

Elevating Magnesium to 1500-1600ppm (This seems to be a less effective method of removal)

UV sterilizers are regularly recommended (Jedimasterben on this site was able to eradicate his using one)

I'm tempted to try an "old school" remedy of Diatomaceous earth filtering which is said catch any free floating Dinos. As this is a form of silicate, it may foster a better environment for competitive Diatoms.

 

In all honesty I seem to be chasing my own tail in my research endeavors. The only constants I've seen from all I've read are: Use activated carbon for the toxins Dinos release and reduce my lighting's photoperiod.

 

So yeah, any input helps.

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jedimasterben

UV sterilizers are regularly recommended (Jedimasterben on this site was able to eradicate his using one)

Even though I have not seen them under the scope for a few months now, I still don't think I'd call it eradicated - more than likely I'm simply able to keep them at bay using it. I'm pretty sure that eliminating the sandbed helped get them under control so that the UV sterilizer could do its thing.

I would highly, highly recommend a UV sterilizer, and at less than $100 for a 55w unit it makes financial sense, too. I lost thousands of dollars in coral to dinos, if I'd have known that for $100 and no sand I could have had the results I have now, I'd have done it in a heartbeat.

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Pinner Reef

Hmm. My sand is years old and I've toyed with the thought. Might be time for my first bare bottom. I'll consider it as well

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jedimasterben

Even if it is just a temporary removal (as it more than likely is for me), it gives less surface for them to grab on to and reproduce on.

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Jellyingabout

Many people get 0 nitrate 0 phosphates on their tests and think their doing great. This is clearly not the case if they have a dino bloom dinos simply can't live in a 0 nutrient system, no algae can. Dinos are brilliant at sucking nutrients out of the water, when no bloom is present in the Northsea there is typically 10ppm of nitrate and 0.7ppm of phosphate, this drops to 0 during summer but we all know its still there its just in the bellies of the dinos.

 

To quote that article

 

"When the nitrates were the highest, so was the dino population."

 

 

This actually implies the opposite of what he concluded. In a closed system like a tank if the N is high but P is low something is holding onto the P. His dino's were phosphate limited, they'd gobbled up all the phosphate with nitrate until there was no phosphate left. It was phosphate limitation that killed his dinos. Most algae can be subjected to well over 100ppm and be fine, its not toxic to them, its food.

 

Have a search for a paper called the role of silica in marine eutrophication by Officer and Rhyther, 1980. Its old but its sound.

Also a paper called macronutrient requirements of dinoflagellates by Rodriguez et al., 2008

There is huge amounts of research to suggest phosphates are the main controlling nutrient for dino's.

 

Wish you the best in killing the nasty things :)

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gulfsurfer101

Not the way to go about it. You will lose your corals after 2 weeks. this is a older article but full of useful information. http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2006-11/rhf/index.phpBio pellets, GFO, carbon and h202 dosing worked for me. Battled it for about 9 months.

 

All my light sensitive stuff is crammed into ten gallon holding tank with a few pounds of rock under leds. I'm using nsw that I've collected and swap out a couple gallons every other day. I haven't noticed any dinoflagellates using nsw in my ten gallon. The ones that were in my 75 are on the decline and I'll look into h202 and raising mag.

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Are you sure it is 40X total magnification? Are you accounting for the 10X magnification of your ocular lens? If you are using a 40X objective then your total magnification would be 400X. This would put the size more in the range of Amphidinium. They all seem dead and unmoving in your video so its hard to say what they are, but that gliding motion and the little dent with the "wang" as you put it are pretty characteristic.

 

To address some points made by others. Its true that in dinoflagellates often pop up last in a succession of algae. This is all very well documented. Its not true that they don't handle high nitrate well, its just that they are less competitive in those environments. In pure culture they grow just fine in high nitrates and phosphates. But when there are diatoms, green algae, cyano around that stuff out grows them if the nitrates are high. You can definitely get rid of your dinos by dosing nitrates, phosphates, silica. But at some point you'll want to stop doing that and your dinos will probably just come right back when all the other algae dies back. Now don't be confused here. If there are no (or super super low) nitrates and phosphates you won't have a dino bloom. I just think its not feasible to reduce your nutrient levels sufficiently in a fish tank.

 

One thing I've been trying to address by identifying the actual genus of each person's dino outbreak is that dinos are a very diverse group. Saying you have a dino problem could be a bit like saying you have a mammal problem. Do you have mice? Gophers? Elephants? Deer? One good thing that has come to light as I've ID'ed dinos is that while the dinos I've IDed come from diverse clades they are all benthic dinos. Most of the research you find when looking up dinos will be about planktonic species. A couple relevant features in common with many benthic species is that they will stick to your substrates and form large amounts of mucous. This benthic habit makes them difficult to remove by skimming or UV. You'll get them when they get into the water column, sure, but they spend most of their time on surfaces.

 

Super clean reef systems may be especially prone to dino outbreaks because the super low nutrient levels create an environment where dinoflagellates can out compete other algae. It can also create an environment (from over skimming/filtration) where predator populations are greatly reduced. I've been looking for someone to let me try introducing a predator species for a couple years but haven't found any one willing yet. But a reefer in Spain this past year had success in his dino battle when a predator population naturally bloomed. He has some nice videos over at reef central. That gives me hope I might be right about why some people have such trouble getting rid of them and for others it just seems to go away on its own.

 

I'd like to see several reefers try going skimmerless for awhile and keep an eye on things both by eye and microscope. Lets see if you can get your own natural bloom of predators. Its just a hypothesis, and who knows if there are natural predators left in your tank to bloom. But its worth a shot as its not something that has been widely tried yet.

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