Mark's 150 (NanoBox Retro)

[markalot]

Yeap, post some computer charts and everyone will think you are a scientist!

 

For some reason, your thread is not showing up in the members tank section. That's why I kept missing it. I looked for a place to subscribe to your thread and I don't see anything? I probably hit something I shouldn't have on the computer.

 

It's in the Special Interest / Large Reef forum. It shows you as subscribed from a while ago.

 

You can go here to see all your notifications: http://www.nano-reef.com/index.php?app=core&module=usercp&area=notificationlog

 

I don't get instant alerts for many threads anymore, it just ended up being lots of spam, instead I use the new searc feature page, filtered to threads I follow. This will work for you as well: http://www.nano-reef.com/index.php?app=core&module=search&do=followed

 

Once I visit those I hit the View New Content button to see all new threads. I hated this new software when it was first updated but now it is by far my favorite.

 

 

Neptune uses two decent mechanical relays and six really shitty solid state relays on the EB8. The mechanical relays are only necessary for very low wattage devices, like dosing pumps or luft pumps. Skimmer pumps, return pumps, etc, that use probably 20-50 watts can be run on their solid state relays.

 

 

EDIT: you posted the above while I was away and didn't hit post lol. I don't understand why they use so many different types of relays, it doesn't make any sense to me. Just keep everything the same and use decent relays and they woulnd't have issues (and it would be much easier for end-users to not have to figure out which ports they need to use for each device).

 

 

 

See, I've experienced different issues. The skimmer, air pump, and sump pump (Eheim) will not turn off using anything but the heavy duty mechanical relays on outlet 4 and 8 of the 8 bar unit. It works fine for lower power circulation pumps,my kalk dosing pump, and my BML lights.

 

 

My setup, with outlets mostly numbered.

 

 

 

 

Even the heater works with the non relay outlet.

[jedimasterben]

See, I've experienced different issues. The skimmer, air pump, and sump pump (Eheim) will not turn off using anything but the heavy duty mechanical relays on outlet 4 and 8 of the 8 bar unit. It works fine for lower power circulation pumps,my kalk dosing pump, and my BML lights.

In all actuality, the mechanical relays aren't actually 'heavy duty', as their reliability is much lower than that of solid state relays, but Neptune specifically chooses to use different amperage relays, more than likely for cost savings. They should just choose a single, quality, 15A solid state relay and use those for all of their relays, but unfortunately, while cost is higher versus the relays they're using now, they don't seem to want to pay it. At any rate, it is what it is, and they'll choose what makes the most sense to them

 

 

My setup, with outlets mostly numbered.

 

 

 

 

Even the heater works with the non relay outlet.

Can't see any pics, firewalled at work lol. The mechanical relays will work with anything you attach to them that doesn't pull more than 10A.

[vlangel]

It's in the Special Interest / Large Reef forum. It shows you as subscribed from a while ago.

 

You can go here to see all your notifications: http://www.nano-reef.com/index.php?app=core&module=usercp&area=notificationlog'>http://www.nano-reef.com/index.php?app=core&module=usercp&area=notificationlog

 

I don't get instant alerts for many threads anymore, it just ended up being lots of spam, instead I use the new searc feature page, filtered to threads I follow. This will work for you as well: http://www.nano-reef.com/index.php?app=core&module=search&do=followed'>http://www.nano-reef.com/index.php?app=core&module=search&do=followed

 

Once I visit those I hit the View New Content button to see all new threads. I hated this new software when it was first updated but now it is by far my favorite.

Thanks Mark. I didn't know about that but it will be very helpful.

 

 

 

 

 

 

See, I've experienced different issues. The skimmer, air pump, and sump pump (Eheim) will not turn off using anything but the heavy duty mechanical relays on outlet 4 and 8 of the 8 bar unit. It works fine for lower power circulation pumps,my kalk dosing pump, and my BML lights.

 

 

My setup, with outlets mostly numbered.

 

 

 

 

Even the heater works with the non relay outlet.

[Veng]

In all actuality, the mechanical relays aren't actually 'heavy duty', as their reliability is much lower than that of solid state relays, but Neptune specifically chooses to use different amperage relays, more than likely for cost savings. They should just choose a single, quality, 15A solid state relay and use those for all of their relays, but unfortunately, while cost is higher versus the relays they're using now, they don't seem to want to pay it. At any rate, it is what it is, and they'll choose what makes the most sense to them

 

 

Can't see any pics, firewalled at work lol. The mechanical relays will work with anything you attach to them that doesn't pull more than 10A.

You can buy the highest quality mechanical relay in the world, but you won't even approach the cycle count of the low end solid state relays. There's no reason for them to put 15A mechanical relays, especially seeing how your wall outlet can only support 15A for the total circuit. 15A mechanical relays also run around 4-5$ in low quantity, so even in quantity you're talking about adding ~25$+ to the cost of an energy bar. For something that has a sell price of 160$, they can't be selling it to the stores for more than 120$ (probably closer to 100$), you're talking ~20% of the net. That's quite possibly their entire profit margin.

 

Now, they could just raise the price by 40$, but no one would want to pay it for noisy relays that most devices simply don't need....

[jedimasterben]

You can buy the highest quality mechanical relay in the world, but you won't even approach the cycle count of the low end solid state relays. There's no reason for them to put 15A mechanical relays, especially seeing how your wall outlet can only support 15A for the total circuit. 15A mechanical relays also run around 4-5$ in low quantity, so even in quantity you're talking about adding ~25$+ to the cost of an energy bar. For something that has a sell price of 160$, they can't be selling it to the stores for more than 120$ (probably closer to 100$), you're talking ~20% of the net. That's quite possibly their entire profit margin.

 

Now, they could just raise the price by 40$, but no one would want to pay it for noisy relays that most devices simply don't need....

What I meant was that if a user has a 400w metal halide, or a large chiller, which would max out the SSR they use, so they'd need to be on the higher-amperage mechanical relays, and if they have more than one of those, then it can become a problem if they also have dosing pumps, etc, and don't necessarily need to have a dozen other devices on relays. Solid state relays are awesome, but I don't understand why the ones they use do not function well with a lot of low-wattage devices.

 

I do see your point about not necessarily needing all 15A outlets, but end users tend not to want to read instructions and just plug anything into any port and figure out problems later and having to come up with solutions that in this case require them to simply purchase more from the company that they would otherwise not need.

[metrokat]

My setup, with outlets mostly numbered.

 

 

 

 

Even the heater works with the non relay outlet.

I just wanted to say that I resent you for having the fancy graphs.

[markalot]

Tried again to take some blue light photos. Light is 80% blue, 20% white as it ramps down for the evening.

 

 

I don't give my BTA much notice, but he looks damn good when the white lights start to fade.

 

 

 

My yellow tangs have started to show damage as they are fighting a lot, so I made my move and added a medium size Scopas Tang that has been at the LFS for 2 months, and eating well. I always do the old mirror trick when adding a new fish, so here is the frag rack, under blue light, and just about every fish trying to fight the mirror.

 

 

 

 

[latteslave]

Pics look good. You can see all the colors. Nice tank.

[vlangel]

Wow, everything fluoresces under that lighting and yet you have such clarity. Its cool.

[Arkayology]

Wow, the colors you are getting are fantastic!

 

i like that all your fish were fighting with their mirror images. That always cracks me up that they beeline to the mirror.

[markalot]

Wow, the colors you are getting are fantastic!

 

i like that all your fish were fighting with their mirror images. That always cracks me up that they beeline to the mirror.

 

Thanks. It works well for breaking up the aggression.

 

Pics look good. You can see all the colors. Nice tank.

 

 

Wow, everything fluoresces under that lighting and yet you have such clarity. Its cool.

 

Thanks for the compliments!

 

 

So here's were I am with PH. I did not stick to my plan of keeping everything consistent because that was boring.

 

 

PH stayed .01 higher than last night, so just noise there. I have the air pump set to come on at 9PM, when PH usually starts to fall anyway, and go off at noon, after PH normally starts to rise. My mad thinking is that A. I want to help drive off as much co2 as possible during the night, even though room co2 is elevated and B. During the day I actually want to take advantage of the increased O2 and not risk keeping elevated co2 levels due to the air pumps pulling in room air while the skimmer always pulls in outside air.

 

Not sure it really matters for my max PH readings but it seemed to work well at keeping PH up high enough last night. If you look closely at the X axis you will see a single red dot where the air pump was turned off yesterday afternoon and a seemingly corresponding jump up of PH soon after that. My hope is that with it off earlier in the day PH will rise even higher today than it did yesterday.

 

/shrug

[markalot]

The other thing I haven't considered yet is the length of my usable daylight cycle. I don't ramp the lights up until after 12 noon, and then they ramp up to full brightness (75% w, 100% at 3PM. The BML strips come on at 2:30pm and ramp up to full at 3PM, then all lights are at full until 7:30PM when both the Razors and BML strips begin to ramp down. The BML strips turn off at 8PM and the Razors get to 20% white, 70% blue at 9:30 and continue to ramp down to 0 by 10:30.

 

It's becoming obvious that a longer daylight cycle will lead to higher PH values during the day, but my corals are telling me the length of the day cycle is about right.

 

No conclusion, just one of those things I didn't think about before constantly tracking PH. Ignorance can be bliss.

[Arkayology]

Where are you having the air pump pull air from?

[markalot]

Where are you having the air pump pull air from?

 

Just the house air, it's an el cheapo "silent" pump that you can hear from next door. I've been looking for a pump I can pull outside air from but hard to find specs online. My outside hose is large enough to pull air for both the skimmer and an air pump, if I need to go that route.

[markalot]

Moar graphs?

 

So far so good. House was closed up all day, everyone home but me all day, so apparently turning off the air pumps at noon did help and raise the day PH almost to 8.1, which is pretty spectacular for this tank.

 

 

My sump level is slowly getting lower, so I increased my timed topoff, which also doses Kalk. I made this change an hour ago so this may also aid in increasing PH, but the change was pretty small.

[Veng]

Moar graphs?

 

So far so good. House was closed up all day, everyone home but me all day, so apparently turning off the air pumps at noon did help and raise the day PH almost to 8.1, which is pretty spectacular for this tank.

 

 

 

My sump level is slowly getting lower, so I increased my timed topoff, which also doses Kalk. I made this change an hour ago so this may also aid in increasing PH, but the change was pretty small.

Wait is your topoff on a timer and not a float switch?

[markalot]

Wait is your topoff on a timer and not a float switch?

 

Correct, I've never bought into float switches for topoff. I've used timers from day one, on both my previous tanks as well, and over a week I'm never off by more than a fraction of an inch of water level. My ultimate goal is a combination of timer controlled topoff with float switches to give me feedback remotely, but not control any decisions other than an emergency sump shutoff if the pump chamber water level gets dangerously low.

 

I'd also like both a sump cam and display cam, but that might be a tad longer term.

[jedimasterben]

Correct, I've never bought into float switches for topoff. I've used timers from day one, on both my previous tanks as well, and over a week I'm never off by more than a fraction of an inch of water level. My ultimate goal is a combination of timer controlled topoff with float switches to give me feedback remotely, but not control any decisions other than an emergency sump shutoff if the pump chamber water level gets dangerously low.

I'm with you, timer (and therefore metered delivery) and not just 'what it needs', though with enough observation and a little adjustment you can pretty much match it exactly, like Mark did and I did when I had my Reef Angel. I was dosing kalk via topoff and wanted to know exactly how much the tank was getting. If the tank had a little more evap than normal, I just filled it after a week or two to my set level, but usually wasn't off but by a little.

[Veng]

 

Correct, I've never bought into float switches for topoff. I've used timers from day one, on both my previous tanks as well, and over a week I'm never off by more than a fraction of an inch of water level. My ultimate goal is a combination of timer controlled topoff with float switches to give me feedback remotely, but not control any decisions other than an emergency sump shutoff if the pump chamber water level gets dangerously low.

 

I'd also like both a sump cam and display cam, but that might be a tad longer term.

I've never been brave enough to try the timer only thing. Though I've got an overflow chamber and its own float switch as a backup to the float switch that's in the sump if it fails....

 

I'll agree though, with more money I'd always buy fancier equipment....

[jedimasterben]

I've never been brave enough to try the timer only thing. Though I've got an overflow chamber and its own float switch as a backup to the float switch that's in the sump if it fails....

If your sump can't handle the full volume of the reservoir if something gets stuck on (or if dosing kalk, etc), it's always good to have a float switch that stays out of the water as a last-ditch effort. Backup plans are good

[LynkUK]

What I meant was that if a user has a 400w metal halide, or a large chiller, which would max out the SSR they use, so they'd need to be on the higher-amperage mechanical relays, and if they have more than one of those, then it can become a problem if they also have dosing pumps, etc, and don't necessarily need to have a dozen other devices on relays. Solid state relays are awesome, but I don't understand why the ones they use do not function well with a lot of low-wattage devices.

 

I do see your point about not necessarily needing all 15A outlets, but end users tend not to want to read instructions and just plug anything into any port and figure out problems later and having to come up with solutions that in this case require them to simply purchase more from the company that they would otherwise not need.

 

Totally get what you're saying here. I'm sure retail cost is a big factor when choosing hardware for an EB...lets face it $160 is a lot for a power strip, even if it is controllable.

I think all this will have to be re-thought out at some point, just because the amount of gear that is being released as low wattage now. The cut off point for the digital relays is, what, 5 watts? I certainly need more than 8 outlets (2 of which are mechanical relays) for my setup. Once you factor in ATO, fan control, dosing pumps in the future, for some it maybe non controllable power heads etc, etc.

In my case it only makes sense to purchase an EB4...and EB8 just doesn't have enough sockets to control low wattage gear that I plan to install.

 

As for Marks tank - WOW! Love it.

I'm glad you are getting a handle on the PH...I love the investigative approach you took, on trying to, at least, understand what was affecting it!!

[Veng]

If your sump can't handle the full volume of the reservoir if something gets stuck on (or if dosing kalk, etc), it's always good to have a float switch that stays out of the water as a last-ditch effort. Backup plans are good

Yeah, my sump has a small chamber that if it were to "overflow" to flows into. The extra chamber probably only holds <1 gallon, but the float switch that's in it has saved me on many occasion from having water all over the counter.

[markalot]

As for Marks tank - WOW! Love it.

I'm glad you are getting a handle on the PH...I love the investigative approach you took, on trying to, at least, understand what was affecting it!!

 

Thanks, much appreciated and hopefully this will help someone at some point in time.

 

Another day, time for another graph! Yesterday my air pumps came on at 9PM and stayed on until noon. This morning I decided to manually shut off the air pump at 8am, which is usually right when the PH starts to rise. It appears to have helped BUT today was the kids first day of school, so less co2 production in the house. Does it matter??

 

[vlangel]

 

Thanks, much appreciated and hopefully this will help someone at some point in time.

 

Another day, time for another graph! Yesterday my air pumps came on at 9PM and stayed on until noon. This morning I decided to manually shut off the air pump at 8am, which is usually right when the PH starts to rise. It appears to have helped BUT today was the kids first day of school, so less co2 production in the house. Does it matter??

 

Ha ha! A day is coming when there will be less co2 production in the house, and you'll have more time to fool with the fish tank, but guess what???? It still won't be perfect!

 

Let me rephrase that....your tank will no doubt look great and perfect as usual but there will still be things related to it that you will want to tweak, fix or move. Its the nature of the hobby.

[NirvanaandTool]

Fancy graphs are fancy.

 

I used to do timer ATO setups. My ATO on my Solana was timer based with a float switch as an emergency shutoff. Worked real well.