Red Sea ABC+, is it the best option?

[kush.]

Hey guys, so i ran my first ever test on the "foundation elements" using the red sea foundations test kit. Not to surprisingly, I was low in Mg and Ca. I am now looking for supplements for the tank, and came across the red sea foundations ABC+ supplement and was wondering if it makes sense to just buy this, or to buy separate supplements for Mg, Ca, and Alk. If any of you have experience using this supplement, please let me know about your feelings on the product.

 

Thank you

[seabass]

You said that your tank was low in magnesium and calcium. ABC+ adds those as well as alkalinity (and a couple of other elements that you don't test for). The main problem that I see is that they are already mixed in a ratio that assumes a certain consumption ratio. You won't be able to adjust for things like higher alkalinity consumption due to use of GFO. IDK, I just feel that two part allows you to supplement what you actually need: http://www.bulkreefsupply.com/bulk-media-additives/calcium-and-alkalinity-additives.html

[Tropi]

I was told by my lfs to get the abc+ supplement to but I tested my calcium first and that was ok so I decided not to use it so I don't have any experience with it, I was worried about it making my calcium to high. So I agree with maybe just getting the ones you know are low.

[kush.]

You said that your tank was low in magnesium and calcium. ABC+ adds those as well as alkalinity (and a couple of other elements that you don't test for). The main problem that I see is that they are already mixed in a ratio that assumes a certain consumption ratio. You won't be able to adjust for things like higher alkalinity consumption due to use of GFO. IDK, I just feel that two part allows you to supplement what you actually need: http://www.bulkreefsupply.com/bulk-media-additives/calcium-and-alkalinity-additives.html

This was my main concern with the product but figured that if levels evened out through water changes it would be an easier product to use. But you think a two part would be more benificial? I also liked the ABC+ because it had the benefits of adding other elements besides the 3 "foundation" elements.

 

As for the two parts, i see a two part for calcium and alkalinity, and then another 2 part for magnesium. My next question is, should i simply buy these two, two part supplements, or go for the red sea supplements that allow you to dose specifically for ca, alk, mg? It is probably cheaper to go about it the first way, but what do you think would be more beneficial. (i am looking for ease of use since i don't have a dosing system and effectiveness)

 

Thanks for the replies guys

[kush.]

also, directed towards seabass, i just started using GFO, so i suspect my alk will start dropping which means i will probably be dosing all three sooner than later.

[seabass]

I suppose that you could get lucky if your tank's consumption of each element is in the same ratio as what's included in ABC+. However, that isn't always the case. Here, watch this video about two part. It will answer most of your questions:

 

[Arce]

Ive also been using the red sea 2 part, ive been considering switching but unsure if theres a difference between the different 2 parts like BRS, ESV, red sea etc.

[kush.]

I suppose that you could get lucky if your tank's consumption of each element is in the same ratio as what's included in ABC+. However, that isn't always the case. Here, watch this video about two part. It will answer most of your questions:

 

thanks man! this video was super helpful and did in fact answer all my questions. It may have even convinced me to buy a cheap dosing system (As if i really needed to add more money to equipment....).

[Red_Blenny]

Ive also been using the red sea 2 part, ive been considering switching but unsure if theres a difference between the different 2 parts like BRS, ESV, red sea etc.

 

Some of the 2 parts might have extra addatives added. For example, Seachem Reef Fusion 1 has some trace amounts of Mn, Mg, Sr, Fe, B, and Mo (in addition with Ca). BRS and ESV don't have the extra trace elements in their 2 parts.

 

I have no experience with Red Sea 2 part so you might have to look that up (or check the bottle).

[seabass]

Ive also been using the red sea 2 part, ive been considering switching but unsure if theres a difference between the different 2 parts like BRS, ESV, red sea etc.

If I did the math correctly; (in a 100 gallon tank) in order to raise alkalinity from 8 to 9 meq/l and calcium up 20 ppm, it would take:

 

BRS supplements

• 200 ml of 2 part alkalinity (soda ash) solution, which cost about $0.16
• 205 ml of 2 part calcium solution, which cost about $0.16

E.S.V. B-Ionic

• 135 ml of E.S.V. B-Ionic Alkalinity, which cost about $1.60
• 135 ml of E.S.V. B-Ionic Calcium, which cost about $1.60

 

So according to my math, E.S.V. B-Ionic two part costs roughly 10 times as much as BRS supplements to add the same amount of calcium and alkalinity. Granted, I didn't factor in the cost of magnesium, but you can see why people use the BRS bulk additives.

 

 

Some of the 2 parts might have extra addatives added. For example, Seachem Reef Fusion 1 has some trace amounts of Mn, Mg, Sr, Fe, B, and Mo (in addition with Ca). BRS and ESV don't have the extra trace elements in their 2 parts.

E.S.V. B-Ionic does contain trace elements which we tend not to test for. Some people like this method; however, I don't think it's a good idea to dose elements that we don't test for. Sure I've done it before (like when dosing Kent Tech M for Bryopsis); but as a general rule, I try not to. I tend to rely on water changes to replenish consumed trace elements.

[Arce]

The BRS 2 part is pretty much similar to the DIY methods correct? Like the baking soda for the alk solution.

[seabass]

The BRS 2 part is pretty much similar to the DIY methods correct? Like the baking soda for the alk solution.

Yes. Although acquiring, and purity of the components can be issues. If you are interested in DIY, here's an article that discusses it: http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2006-02/rhf/index.php

[malawian]

So Ill just say a couple things.

 

First, the Red Sea additives are quite good. Im not sure if youre talking about a specific product that mixes all three parts (is that even possible?) but I have used their three part additives and they are quite good. It is calcium, alkalinity (like most 2 part) but also has a mix for Mg. Ive used it and I like it, seems to be high quality and pure.

 

As far as BRS additives go, yes they are definitely cheaper, but some calculations are a bit misleading. BRS additives are usually much less potent per mL than an off the shelf product of good quality. That said, it will undoubtedly still be (a lot) cheaper. Also, the price is good enough that I would break down and buy BRS products rather than just totally DIYing it just to ensure that you got really high quality and purity. You are already saving a lot getting BRS bulk products, dont save the extra dollar/month buying less pure stuff.

 

I use BRS two part mainly because I have a 75g tank now and need considerable amounts of additive. When I just had my BC29 I used pre made stuff because I didnt need enough to justify everything that comes with making your own stuff. I have a very high opinion of BRS stuff and its nice knowing EXACTLY whats going into your tank and it what concentration.

[NanoBiscuit]

I just ordered the Red Sea Reef Foundation Kit that has the test for Ca, Alk, and Mg and the additives for all three. I figured I would start there since it was a decent price and included everything I would need to get started testing and dosing. If I don't like the results or if it gets too expensive for my 30g tank I will probably make a switch to BRS stuff eventually.

[Arce]

In my 29 i barely go through much in dosing so thats really the main reason i have been using the red sea. That and my LFS carries it so its easier then ordering. I never gave much thought into which two part to use. When my tank gets more demanding i may switch to BRS though or DIY.

[seabass]

I'm really not against E.S.V. B-Ionic; I just used it as a comparison. I've even used it before on a couple of smaller reef tanks (where the amount required was relatively small and inexpensive). However, in order to avoid overdosing trace elements and to save money (now that I have more water volume), I've switched to the BRS supplements.

Also, the price is good enough that I would break down and buy BRS products rather than just totally DIYing it just to ensure that you got really high quality and purity. You are already saving a lot getting BRS bulk products, dont save the extra dollar/month buying less pure stuff.

I'd agree with that.

[drfu]

I'm really not against E.S.V. B-Ionic; I just used it as a comparison. I've even used it before on a couple of smaller reef tanks (where the amount required was relatively small and inexpensive). However, in order to avoid overdosing trace elements and to save money (now that I have more water volume), I've switched to the BRS supplements. I'd agree with that.

 

Question, wouldn't larger, lets say 30%, water changes take care of most issues without dosing anything? I use Instant Ocean Reef crystals and from what i found does it not have enough to keep water chemistry close to nsw?

[Polarcollision]

I'm really not against E.S.V. B-Ionic; I just used it as a comparison. I've even used it before on a couple of smaller reef tanks (where the amount required was relatively small and inexpensive). However, in order to avoid overdosing trace elements and to save money (now that I have more water volume), I've switched to the BRS supplements.

I'd agree with that.

 

I've looked all over the net and could never find out what trace elements ESV adds, much less the concentration of each. I use it with good results, but minor elements like potassium, iodine and iron are still on the low end even if they're included in the bottles. Happen to know what's in it other than alk and ca?

[seabass]

I know that they used to be listed on the bottles. I don't have any around, so I can't check for you.

ESV 2 part does contain Mg, as well as potassium, bromide, strontium, lithium, barium, rubidium, iron, zinc, nickel, copper, manganese, cobalt, and chromium. (I was reading off the label.) Those elements listed are in the Ca part of the additive.

In the description from Marine Depot, "In addition to supplying highly concentrated calcium and carbonate alkalinity required for calcification, B-Ionic Calcium Buffer System also provides all other important major, minor, and trace elements in the proper ratios to duplicate the composition of natural seawater."

 

Again, not trying to bash E.S.V.'s Calcium Buffer System (or similar products), but we're not testing for most of these elements. And yes, I know there is usually copper in salt mix (and in many additives); however, is it really being consumed (or is it just binding to our rocks), and does it really need to be replenished? Just about any element can cause problems if the concentrations get high enough. What is your current level of rubidium?

[05XRunner]

I think the ABC+ would be hard to nail down. as my alk gets used faster then my calcium so I dont think it would keep it in line to what I want. I have been using bIonic for past month and I cant seem to get a good dose dialed in with it. It doesnt have any thing to tell you what it will raise and such. I switched to the BRS 2part again and will be going back to that today. I always had success with BRS 2part in past this time I tried differently and didnt like my results.

[kush.]

Thanks alot guys! Dosing used to seem really confusing but i think ill be able to handle it

[21093r53]

esv bionic is best two part then kent tech m for mg