Clownfish keep dying - what am I doing wrong?

[potatowned]

Hi All, I'm new to the hobby and have had my 20L set up for a little over 2 months. (About 9 weeks.)

 

My current parameters are all pretty stable, everything looks healthy and yet I've killed 3 clownfish and I feel absolutely horrible.

 

Parameters:

 

pH: 8.2-8.4

Nitrate: 10ppm

Temp: 77 degrees (I had it at 79 degrees, but lowered it to 77 upon recommendation from my LFS)

SG: 1.024 (lowered from 1.026)

Ca: 380 mg/L

dKH: 9

 

Here is what I currently have in the tank, which all seem to be doing well and growing:

 

- Several zoas

- Candy cane

- Torch

- Frogspawn

- Branching hammer

- Neon toadstool

- Xenia

- Kenya tree

- RBTA

- Ricordea

- 2 hermit crabs

- tons of snails (got an order from reefcleaners)

 

From what I can see, the tank seems to be thriving. I do my water changes religiously, approximately 15% every week. My tank is crawling with little amphipods,copopods, stomatella, etc. I've caught glimpses of a bristleworm, I have a feather duster growing and numerous sponges. I do have a little bit of bubble algae and hair algae which I am trying to get rid of. My temp doesn't fluctuate, pH is stable, as far as I can tell, everything is good.

 

I bought a pair of clownfish about 20 days ago from my LFS, which is highly regarded in my area. I drip acclimated them and they seemed to do well initially. The larger fish would harass the smaller one, which I understood to be normal. The smaller one didn't seem to eat much and after a few days, it came down with what I think is Brooklynella. It died shortly therafter. The larger fish came down with it as well a few days later. I woke up in the morning to see it covered in white film - and when I returned home from work with medication, it was dead. The smaller fish lived 7 days and the larger one lived 10 days. Neither showed symptoms initially and upon showing symptoms, it died within 12 hours.

 

I went in to my LFS with a sample of water to figure out what was wrong. The owner basically told me that all tanks will inevitably have diseases and parasites and it's basically up to the fish to fight the diseases off. If the fish's habitat is not ideal, the fish gets stressed and it becomes susceptible to sickness. I asked him if I should let my tank sit fallow for a few weeks to kill the parasite/bacteria before I try again and he said no, I just need to create a stress-free environment. He tested my water and upon his recommendation, I lowered my temp a few degrees and my salinity. I did some reading online and thought, OK maybe I got some diseased fish, or maybe this was a fluke and I didn't do anything that wrong and maybe I these small adjustments to my tank will do the trick.

 

Fast forward to this past Tuesday. I go to a different LFS and pick up a single clownfish. This particular fish has been at this LFS for well over a month, so I know that he's eating and doing well. I bring him home, drip acclimate and keep an eye on him. He's eating twice a day, doing really well. He looks as happy as can be the next several days. I believe he hosted with my heater, since he always slept near it. On Friday night, I test my Ca to be at around 320, so I dose calcium with my water change. Saturday morning I wake up and see my poor clownfish covered in whitish spots, just like the other two. I didn't have formalin so I really didn't know what to do but try a freshwater dip. I dipped him for about 10 minutes and then put him back in the main tank. I had to go up to LA with my family so I wasn't able to check on him until later that night and when I get home, he was dead.

 

I'm pretty bummed out and don't really know what to do. Clownfish are supposed to be hardy fish and I can't seem to keep them alive. I don't mind leaving my tank fallow for several weeks, but I'm worried about what the guy at my LFS told me - if my environment isn't right, my fish will get stressed and get sick no matter what. I REALLY don't want to kill any more of these cute little guys.

 

Any help? Am I doing something wrong? Is it possible that my tanks is good for corals and not for fish? Do I need to start testing other parameters? AHHHHHHH!

 

TL;DR - I've killed 3 clownfish despite stable water parameters and I don't know why. Please help.

[el_ote]

6-8 weeks fallow. really. its a bug in there and anything you add will only extend the cycle. take the time to do some reading and grab a small tank for quarantine unless you want to wait another 6-8 weeks on the off chance the next fish bring in something else. im talking from experience with ich. killed my first clowns bringing in a firefish and not quarantining. hows the rbta? 2 months is really soon to be trying one but if its working for you... I cant keep em.

[Tamberav]

I went in to my LFS with a sample of water to figure out what was wrong. The owner basically told me that all tanks will inevitably have diseases and parasites and it's basically up to the fish to fight the diseases off. If the fish's habitat is not ideal, the fish gets stressed and it becomes susceptible to sickness. I asked him if I should let my tank sit fallow for a few weeks to kill the parasite/bacteria before I try again and he said no, I just need to create a stress-free environment. He tested my water and upon his recommendation, I lowered my temp a few degrees and my salinity. I did some reading online and thought, OK maybe I got some diseased fish, or maybe this was a fluke and I didn't do anything that wrong and maybe I these small adjustments to my tank will do the trick.

 

The LFS is wrong. Most any LFS IS wrong and from now on take anything they say with a grain of salt. It won't be long until you are more knowledgeable than them. They probably just said that to try and cover their back because they sold you sick fish.

 

Catching a fish at a store and bringing it home is going to cause any fish stress and any sort of sickness they may have a mild case of is going to show its ugly face. Unfortunately clownfish are very susceptible to brook and it is a very fast killer as you have seen. By the time you know they have it, it is too late. Your tanks environment sounds fine and you can bring the sanity back up to 1.026 for the corals as lowering it a bit won't have any effect on the fish.

 

The tank needs to sit fishless for 6-8 weeks for the parasite to starve off. I would recommend a QT tank in the future. Imagine you had some healthy fish already in the tank and then added a new one without QT and killed everything. No fun.

 

Basically all you can do it try to buy healthy stock (fish that have been in the store for awhile) and QT it so it can't bring anything into the tank.

[hypostatic]

The LFS is wrong. Most any LFS IS wrong and from now on take anything they say with a grain of salt. It won't be long until you are more knowledgeable than them. They probably just said that to try and cover their back because they sold you sick fish.

 

+1 to everything Tamberave said.

 

Also, I would look for another LFS

[jestep]

I have better luck with temp matching for fish as long as salinity is fairly close and not drip acclimating them. Otherwise turkey baster every 5 minutes for about 15 and then transfer.

 

I think drip acclimating adds complexity that isn't needed for most fish. It's also easy to take too long and have the temp fall in the holding container so they get temp shocked when you finally add them.

[orbit]

Granted. All tanks at LFS's will have diseases and pests because they have to keep fish and sell fish in the same tank that they are dumping and transferring fish to and from. So this does not allow proper time to treat fish or leave tanks fallow.

So yeah, your LFS lied to you. It's not the first time. And it won't be the end either.

[potatowned]

Too bad... my LFS is reputable on the Socal Reef forums. He offered to give me a free fish, since my tank is brand new and there is no way I could have had the Brook in there. He basically admitted that his fish was probably carrying it, but his whole perspective was that all fish carry it and if they are stressed, the parasite will take hold.

 

Anyways, if I get a fish from him, I'll QT it in a small 3 gallon I have set up.

[DC5]

I've had one of my clownfish for over 10 years, and the other for 6 years, and they have been through 4 different tanks, several power outages, a broken heater than nearly cooked them, etc, and yeah...I guess I have been lucky that the inevitable tank disease hasn't got to mine yet.

[potatowned]

Could I get a cleaner shrimp in the meantime? Brooklynella doesn't affect inverts, right?

[dpoltsdsu]

You would be fine with getting a cleaner shrimp, inverts are not affected by Brooklynella.

[atrox]

Its never easy losing a fish, regardless of how long you had it. Dont take it personal, and judging by your post youve done some research, and that is all we can do in this hobby to gain a grasp of what it is we are really trying to achieve which is nothing short of incredible when you consider an ocean in the home.

 

It can be challenging to diagnose a fish, let alone keep one healthy. At any point did you notice anything on the fish other than white film which could be bacteria simply consuming carcass, in terms of scrapes, abrasions, ich spots, etc. etc. Did it seem the fish were gasping more than usual, was swimming eratic, or were they set in a single location?

 

Hows the water movement in the tank, do you have good gas exchange going on?

 

Also on the calcium how are you dosing, and what was reading after you dosed?

 

What is youre water change schedule, you dont have any high calcium demanding corals, and regular water changes should keep you where you need to be. Salinty at 1.026 is fine if you have top off and keep it stable.

 

Id also quit taking advice from this LFS as hes making money off you and not looking out for the livestock or you.

[EmmaJ]

We are having the exact same issue although we were able to treat the first 2 fish for 4 days, they cleared up then died a few days later after getting white spots and film again.  Bought another and he died in 2 days. :(

 

Per this post, we will be fallow for a while I guess. Our corals, shrimp, snails and hermits are doing fantastic though!

[BlennyBoi]

prolly infected when you bought them, but there were no symptoms. if possible, get fish elsewhere. but do leave the tank with no fish (iverts and coral ok though) for a couple months. the disease will die off because there are no hosts. brooknyella is terrible, i lost a clown to it too. always sucks to lose a fish.

[mcarroll]

Jumping to conclusions about the store or the fish and stating some arbitrary guidelines is not helpful.

 

It's one thing to state likelihoods, but there's barely any info in this thread so far to base any meaningful suggestions on.

 

Let's dig into this and see what's happened so far...

 

On 3/31/2014 at 3:42 AM, potatowned said:

I'm new to the hobby

First key information.   

 

This info, along with the rest, suggests that you're stocking this tank too fast, with too many animals, some of which are inappropriate for the size of the tank or your expertise level.

 

On 3/31/2014 at 3:42 AM, potatowned said:

have had my 20L set up for a little over 2 months.

Second piece of key information.

 

That tank probably still smells like the store you bought it in -- way too new IMO.  😉

 

Also, 20 liters is like 5 gallons.....way too small for Clownfish or the RBTA. 

 

Arguably too small for some of those corals, but that's more of a management issue than a health and survival issue.

 

On 3/31/2014 at 3:42 AM, potatowned said:

pH: 8.2-8.4

Nitrate: 10ppm

Temp: 77 degrees (I had it at 79 degrees, but lowered it to 77 upon recommendation from my LFS)

SG: 1.024 (lowered from 1.026)

Ca: 380 mg/L

dKH: 9

Aside from temperature, these numbers aren't too relevant for fish as long as they're stable.  Looks good though!

 

On 3/31/2014 at 3:42 AM, potatowned said:

Here is what I currently have in the tank, which all seem to be doing well and growing:

 

[5 stonies, 3 softies, 1 leather and 1 RBTA]

- 2 hermit crabs

- tons of snails (got an order from reefcleaners)

If you can, please post a picture.  Ideally with daylights ON and flow pumps OFF.

 

Sounds like A LOT for 20 liters.  An RBTA can grow LARGE.

 

How long have these all been in the tank?   

 

Are you having to dose for the stony corals?  How much alk and how much calcium?

 

On 3/31/2014 at 3:42 AM, potatowned said:

I bought a pair of clownfish about 20 days ago from my LFS, which is highly regarded in my area. I drip acclimated them and they seemed to do well initially. The larger fish would harass the smaller one, which I understood to be normal. The smaller one didn't seem to eat much and after a few days, it came down with what I think is Brooklynella. It died shortly therafter. The larger fish came down with it as well a few days later. I woke up in the morning to see it covered in white film - and when I returned home from work with medication, it was dead. The smaller fish lived 7 days and the larger one lived 10 days. Neither showed symptoms initially and upon showing symptoms, it died within 12 hours.

• How many days were you able to monitor the fish before buying?  I'd suggest seeing them on at least two successive visits so you can gauge any relative decline or improvement in them.  If you can manage to see them healthy for a couple of weeks at the store, they can usually be considered a sure thing IME.
• Does your store use copper in their water?  Find out, because those stores are kinda ripping you off by NOT conditioning the fish for you, but keeping their fishes' diseases (and immune systems) suppressed instead.  That's how fish are when retailers get them.....not supposed to be how YOU get them.  Could be all your stores use copper tho....it seems like a common practice these days at least in some parts.
• Be careful about acclimation....too much is not a good thing and can cause a lot of stress.  There's a lot of sketchy advice floating around about acclimation, mixed in with the good advice.  Check out Sustainable Aquatics' white paper on acclimation for solid, concise info to help you weed through the other resources out there.
• Harassment may be normal, but only to a degree.  It's not un-stressful if there's no reprieve from it...more than likely this was directly related to the fish dying, but possibly not the sole cause.  Next time, be prepared to intervene and separate the fish any way you can. 
• Once their immune systems are shot, they will not last long regardless of what parasite happens to be around.

 

On 3/31/2014 at 3:42 AM, potatowned said:

I go to a different LFS and pick up a single clownfish. This particular fish has been at this LFS for well over a month, so I know that he's eating and doing well. I bring him home, drip acclimate and keep an eye on him. He's eating twice a day, doing really well. He looks as happy as can be the next several days. I believe he hosted with my heater, since he always slept near it. On Friday night, I test my Ca to be at around 320, so I dose calcium with my water change. Saturday morning I wake up and see my poor clownfish covered in whitish spots, just like the other two. I didn't have formalin so I really didn't know what to do but try a freshwater dip. I dipped him for about 10 minutes and then put him back in the main tank. I had to go up to LA with my family so I wasn't able to check on him until later that night and when I get home, he was dead.

• Too soon after the last fish.  Whatever they had may still be rampant in the water.
• Same acclimation questions.
• Hovering near the heater or top of the aquarium can be a sign of stress -- quite possibly from the parasites from the last fish.
• You say spots like the other two, but with them you said white film.   Those are specific differentiating traits of two completely different pathogens, so please clarify.  🙂 

 

IMO, if you add more fish don't do it without ALSO adding a strong UV filter.   If the fish is healthy, it will be able to fight off parasites, but not an infinite amount -- the UV filter will keep the numbers of parasites in the water low so the fish will be able to fight them off.

 

You'd be better off not adding fish for a few months though.

 

And with such a small tank, consider having no fish at all and just going with corals and inverts for a while.

 

IMO, the first two fish died from fighting....succumbing to a parasite.    The second round succumbed to what was left in the tank from the first two.

[Tamberav]

3 hours ago, mcarroll said:

Jumping to conclusions about the store or the fish and stating some arbitrary guidelines is not helpful.

 

It's one thing to state likelihoods, but there's barely any info in this thread so far to base any meaningful suggestions on.

 

Let's dig into this and see what's happened so far...

 

First key information.   

 

This info, along with the rest, suggests that you're stocking this tank too fast, with too many animals, some of which are inappropriate for the size of the tank or your expertise level.

 

Second piece of key information.

 

That tank probably still smells like the store you bought it in -- way too new IMO.  😉

 

Also, 20 liters is like 5 gallons.....way too small for Clownfish or the RBTA. 

 

Arguably too small for some of those corals, but that's more of a management issue than a health and survival issue.

 

Aside from temperature, these numbers aren't too relevant for fish as long as they're stable.  Looks good though!

 

If you can, please post a picture.  Ideally with daylights ON and flow pumps OFF.

 

Sounds like A LOT for 20 liters.  An RBTA can grow LARGE.

 

How long have these all been in the tank?   

 

Are you having to dose for the stony corals?  How much alk and how much calcium?

 

• How many days were you able to monitor the fish before buying?  I'd suggest seeing them on at least two successive visits so you can gauge any relative decline or improvement in them.  If you can manage to see them healthy for a couple of weeks at the store, they can usually be considered a sure thing IME.
• Does your store use copper in their water?  Find out, because those stores are kinda ripping you off by NOT conditioning the fish for you, but keeping their fishes' diseases (and immune systems) suppressed instead.  That's how fish are when retailers get them.....not supposed to be how YOU get them.  Could be all your stores use copper tho....it seems like a common practice these days at least in some parts.
• Be careful about acclimation....too much is not a good thing and can cause a lot of stress.  There's a lot of sketchy advice floating around about acclimation, mixed in with the good advice.  Check out Sustainable Aquatics' white paper on acclimation for solid, concise info to help you weed through the other resources out there.
• Harassment may be normal, but only to a degree.  It's not un-stressful if there's no reprieve from it...more than likely this was directly related to the fish dying, but possibly not the sole cause.  Next time, be prepared to intervene and separate the fish any way you can. 
• Once their immune systems are shot, they will not last long regardless of what parasite happens to be around.

 

• Too soon after the last fish.  Whatever they had may still be rampant in the water.
• Same acclimation questions.
• Hovering near the heater or top of the aquarium can be a sign of stress -- quite possibly from the parasites from the last fish.
• You say spots like the other two, but with them you said white film.   Those are specific differentiating traits of two completely different pathogens, so please clarify.  🙂 

 

IMO, if you add more fish don't do it without ALSO adding a strong UV filter.   If the fish is healthy, it will be able to fight off parasites, but not an infinite amount -- the UV filter will keep the numbers of parasites in the water low so the fish will be able to fight them off.

 

You'd be better off not adding fish for a few months though.

 

And with such a small tank, consider having no fish at all and just going with corals and inverts for a while.

 

IMO, the first two fish died from fighting....succumbing to a parasite.    The second round succumbed to what was left in the tank from the first two.

This was from 2014 though still some good info. 

 

I will feel good UVs able to deal with parasites are mostly out of the budget of beginners though unless they are comfortable finding a used product.

[j.falk]

On 9/14/2019 at 11:40 PM, mcarroll said:

Also, 20 liters is like 5 gallons.....way too small for Clownfish or the RBTA. 

20L = is more likely 20 Gallon LONG aquarium.  Most aquarium manufacturers refer to them as 20L.

 

My bet was on the drip acclimation that stressed the fish out and eventually killed them.  It's not a good idea to drip acclimate your clownfish...they don't need it.

[RaymondNoodles]

On 9/22/2019 at 7:30 AM, j.falk said:

20L = is more likely 20 Gallon LONG aquarium.  Most aquarium manufacturers refer to them as 20L.

You are right. Looking at OP’s other posts, the tank was referred to as 20 gallon, and 20 gallon long. OP should have been more clear on the size.