Overflow Box?

[Lawnman]

Thanks Lawnman. So as to no damage the pump. I should look for something in the 200-250gph range? I see the Sicce has a 1.0 version that is rated at 251gph max. Should be suffice for my 29gallon DT, 10 gallon sump?

 

Also I made the return zone bigger on the design so I wont have to worry about flooding the sump? If the skimmer area is bigger, it really doesn't make a difference to prevent flooding if a power failure were to happen?

 

In other words, it doesn't matter which zone is bigger when trying to prevent a flood as the whole sump itself will be the safety measure? Not just 1 zone in specific.

 

Hope that makes sense, I can ramble sometimes.

Yes the water goes back into the sump and fills it. The baffles have nothing to do with it when it comes to back siphoning. No you need the pump I linked. A 200-250 gallon pump after head loss will be around 150-175 gph. So get the one I linked or any one rated 350-450 gallons. Because you have to figure head loss. Do you understand head loss? If you turn on your kitchen faucet it pumps out say 500 gallons per hour. If you put a hose on your faucet and drag it upstairs it will pump less because that water is pumping UP. So that is head loss.

[Mojado]

 

 

Also you can burn up some pumps by restricting the flow with a ball valve. The back pressure the valve creates shortens the life of a pump.

 

No, Lawnman! Don't say stuff like that. That's completely false, at least for the size of pumps we're talking about here. A pump with its output restricted to reduce flow will consume less energy. You will not burn up a pump by doing so.

[Mojado]

Thanks Lawnman. So as to no damage the pump. I should look for something in the 200-250gph range? I see the Sicce has a 1.0 version that is rated at 251gph max. Should be suffice for my 29gallon DT, 10 gallon sump?

 

Also I made the return zone bigger on the design so I wont have to worry about flooding the sump? If the skimmer area is bigger, it really doesn't make a difference to prevent flooding if a power failure were to happen?

 

In other words, it doesn't matter which zone is bigger when trying to prevent a flood as the whole sump itself will be the safety measure? Not just 1 zone in specific.

 

Hope that makes sense, I can ramble sometimes.

Check it, pick a flow rate you want then consult this table:

Find the flow rate you want at the height of your particular setup, and pick the pump whose flow matches.

 

In this example, the synca 2.0, at 3 to 4 feet of head, allows you to go 10x turnover rate (30g x 10 = 300gph). It'll do better, so you can restrict the output a bit if you like. The syncra 1.5 is OK, but doesn't give you room to go above 238gph at that height if you decide you want more flow.

Also, if you're planning to use an ATO (automatic top-off), and trust me you do, you should make your return section smaller. As ATO's control the level of water in return sections, having a smaller return section allows you to more tightly control salinity with your ATO.

[Lawnman]

No, Lawnman! Don't say stuff like that. That's completely false, at least for the size of pumps we're talking about here. A pump with its output restricted to reduce flow will consume less energy. You will not burn up a pump by doing so.

Your crazy! There are some pumps that it does not hurt to valve off and some it does. But a pump that is valved off will not use less energy that is BS. How is it using less energy? The pump will use more energy because it has back pressure on the propeller because it is being restricted.

 

Check it, pick a flow rate you want then consult this table: Find the flow rate you want at the height of your particular setup, and pick the pump whose flow matches. In this example, the synca 2.0, at 3 to 4 feet of head, allows you to go 10x turnover rate (30g x 10 = 300gph). It'll do better, so you can restrict the output a bit if you like. The syncra 1.5 is OK, but doesn't give you room to go above 238gph at that height if you decide you want more flow. Also, if you're planning to use an ATO (automatic top-off), and trust me you do, you should make your return section smaller. As ATO's control the level of water in return sections, having a smaller return section allows you to more tightly control salinity with your ATO.

This is BS to! A smaller return section will not help control salinity better. He wants a smaller return section because of a smaller sump. A ATO is used in the return section but it doesn't matter what size the return section is. When the water evaporates it evaporates and the level drops. Doesn't matter if the section is 10x6 or 30x30 the water drops the ato fills it back up.

[brinyreefer]

Don't the glass-holes overflows drain as fast/slow as the pump pumps water into the display? I was under the impression you don't need to restrict the flow, unless you are just wanting less gph throughout the system.

[Mojado]

This is BS to! A smaller return section will not help control salinity better. He wants a smaller return section because of a smaller sump. A ATO is used in the return section but it doesn't matter what size the return section is. When the water evaporates it evaporates and the level drops. Doesn't matter if the section is 10x6 or 30x30 the water drops the ato fills it back up.

 

Your crazy! There are some pumps that it does not hurt to valve off and some it does. But a pump that is valved off will not use less energy that is BS. How is it using less energy? The pump will use more energy because it has back pressure on the propeller because it is being restricted.

I'll Q.E.D. on you about this later with some physics. But right now, I got charts to write for work. Peace.

[brinyreefer]

So, in other words, larger surface area = more evap.

 

But in this case, the total surface area stays the same.

[Mojado]

So, in other words, larger surface area = more evap.

 

But in this case, the total surface area stays the same.

 

Yeah, but we're talking about making the area of your return section smaller vs. bigger. If your ATO can control the water height to within 1/16 of an inch, and because of the size of your return area, that translates to 1 cup of water. So, in your 40 gallon setup, the amount of water in your tank does not deviate by more than a cup, then that's some real tight evap control. But, if you think like Lawnman and make your return area, let's say, 10 times bigger, now that 1/16" accuracy of your ATO translates to 0.625 gallons (over half a gallon!) of water variation due to evap. So, smaller return section area = tighter salinity control.

[brinyreefer]

Yeah, but we're talking about making the area of your return section smaller vs. bigger. If your ATO can control the water height to within 1/16 of an inch, and because of the size of your return area, that translates to 1 cup of water. So, in your 40 gallon setup, the amount of water in your tank does not deviate by more than a cup, then that's some real tight evap control. But, if you think like Lawnman and make your return area, let's say, 10 times bigger, now that 1/16" accuracy of your ATO translates to 0.625 gallons (over half a gallon!) of water variation due to evap. So, smaller return section area = tighter salinity control.

 

Makes sense. Just saw the formula (had flashbacks from school) and had to break it down!

[SmoothSmoke]

Don't the glass-holes overflows drain as fast/slow as the pump pumps water into the display? I was under the impression you don't need to restrict the flow, unless you are just wanting less gph throughout the system.

 

No idea man. Now I'm confused as to which submersible pump to get? A 300gph pump or something much stronger like in the 500gph range????

[GHill762]

No idea man. Now I'm confused as to which submersible pump to get? A 300gph pump or something much stronger like in the 500gph range????

this thread is getting crazy.. lol..

 

I would shoot for around 350-450 gph rated pump..

 

some examples according to the head loss calculater

a danner mag 2 is rated for 250gph at the pump, with 3' of head and one 90* elbow, you'll be pumping roughly 162 gph.. a danner mag 3 is rated for 350gph at the pump, with 3' of head and one 90* elbow, you'll be pumping roughly 285 gph.. that would be pretty decent. a mag 5 rated at 500gph with 3' of head and one 90* elbow will give you roughly 333 gph.. none of those would be bad choices. I wouldn't go above that though..

[SmoothSmoke]

this thread is getting crazy.. lol..

 

I would shoot for around 350-450 gph rated pump..

 

some examples according to the head loss calculater

a danner mag 2 is rated for 250gph at the pump, with 3' of head and one 90* elbow, you'll be pumping roughly 162 gph.. a danner mag 3 is rated for 350gph at the pump, with 3' of head and one 90* elbow, you'll be pumping roughly 285 gph.. that would be pretty decent. a mag 5 rated at 500gph with 3' of head and one 90* elbow will give you roughly 333 gph.. neither of those would be bad choices. I wouldn't go above that though..

 

Crazy indeed! I thought I had it figured out, then a crazy turn of events lol. I'm basically going of everyones help here. As always, thanks again! Time to shop for a bigger pump. Actually, let me go measure my proposed setup to see how many feet exactly this thing will need to go up.

[GHill762]

Crazy indeed! I thought I had it figured out, then a crazy turn of events lol. I'm basically going of everyones help here. As always, thanks again! Time to shop for a bigger pump. Actually, let me go measure my proposed setup to see how many feet exactly this thing will need to go up.

That head calculator is an awesome tool, but they don't have all pump options on there.. most manufacturers have their own head loss charts you can follow too..

 

and you're welcome, people are trying to make it too confusing in here.. lol.. there's no magic to it, you just want enough flow that your filtration is effective but not so much that you have crazy noisy bubble filled flow through your sump or more flow than your overflow can handle.. sump length plays a big role here, the longer your sump the more flow you can push through it. everyone likes to base sump flow on DT volume, but I think that's a horrible suggestion, I think sump flow should be based on SUMP size..

[SmoothSmoke]

Ok just got my measurement. From the bottom of the sump to the top of the tank it's 4ft. I don't have the plumbing figured out yet, I know I want a ball valve.

 

Looking at the head loss calculator. Horizontal length refers to DT length or sump length?

[GHill762]

Ok just got my measurement. From the bottom of the sump to the top of the tank it's 4ft. I don't have the plumbing figured out yet, I know I want a ball valve.

 

Looking at the head loss calculator. Horizontal length refers to DT length or sump length?

horizontal length is referring to pumping horizontally (it's referring to your plumbing, not your tank).. for example, if you're running up two feet, then left a foot, then up another 3 feet..

[ManGups]

FUN STUFF:

 

If the tank is already set-up and you have not purchased your return pump:

1) Determine the amount of flow you want to achieve through your sump and filter.

2) Choose a pump that will provide the desired amount of flow. Be sure to account for the

resistance that the pump is working against head pressure. Use the head pressure loss

chart provided on the pump packaging to estimate the resulting flow rate.

* Estimating head pressure: Head pressure is measured in feet, so for a rough estimate of

head pressure, start by measuring the vertical height from your pump to the top rim of your

aquarium (or to the place where the return outlet is located). Then, for each 90 degree turn,

add 1-2 more feet to your total. Do not forget to count the turns required to get the water

back into the tank. Any reduction in the return line will also add to the total head pressure.

Ask your retailer for help suggesting the best pump for your system.

4) Once you have selected your pump, choose the corresponding Overflow unit that best

matches the flow rate you have selected. Be sure not to choose a Overflow that has a

flow rate that is less than the flow rate of your pump (once head pressure is accounted for).

If you have already purchased your return pump:

1) Determine the flow rate of the pump that you already have. Do not forget to account for

head pressure (see above).

2) Choose the corresponding Overflow unit for the flow rate that you will be running. Be

sure not to choose a Overflow that has a flow rate that is less than the flow rate of your

pump (once head pressure is accounted for).

[GHill762]

Don't forget if you use the calculator to put in # of elbows, pipe diameter, # of ball valves, etc.. they will all change head pressure.

[SmoothSmoke]

horizontal length is referring to pumping horizontally (it's referring to your plumbing, not your tank).. for example, if you're running up two feet, then left a foot, then up another 3 feet..

 

Glad I asked, was totally off. I plan on running straight up. So it should be 0 or near to 0.

[brinyreefer]

I am in the process of gathering everything for a 40B build. I am going with a Mag 5. That will be just shy of 10x the turn over rate, which 10x the tank size is the rule of thumb for circulation. If I were you I'd get the Mag 3 and call it a day. No need to add a valve unless you want to throttle the flow down(or for disassembly/cleaning purposes), the overflow will accomidate to the pump output, as long as you don't go over 700gph and you're not.

[SmoothSmoke]

Thanks Mangrups. I kind of went backwards with my setup. I purchased the 700gph overflow box kit from glass holes. My tank is not running, I'm in the planning stages and purchasing everything I need to go live, hopefully in a weeks time. This is what I have planned thus far.

 

Display Tank: Acrylic 29 gallons
Sump: Glass 10 gallon, 2 zones, skimmer and return zones with a bubble trap.
Overflow Box: Glass-Holes 700gph kit

Height from bottom of the sump to the top of the tank is 4ft. I will have 1 ball valve on the return line.

[ManGups]

Thanks Mangrups. I kind of went backwards with my setup. I purchased the 700gph overflow box kit from glass holes. My tank is not running, I'm in the planning stages and purchasing everything I need to go live, hopefully in a weeks time. This is what I have planned thus far.

 

Display Tank: Acrylic 29 gallons

Sump: Glass 10 gallon, 2 zones, skimmer and return zones with a bubble trap.

Overflow Box: Glass-Holes 700gph kit

 

Height from bottom of the sump to the top of the tank is 4ft. I will have 1 ball valve on the return line.

 

Choose any pump which has less than 700 gph at 4 ft. I doubt you would be flowing even 500 gph through the sump. don;t worry abt headless because of ball value etc. it really does not matter.

[SmoothSmoke]

Ok, I'm leaning towards the Sicce 2.0 (568gph). It's rated at 317gph at 5 feet and 423gph at 3 feet. That should probably be around 370gph at 4 feet?

 

I'm also looking at the Mag 5 (500gph). Rated at 295gph at 4 feet.

 

Either or, should work for me. Just not sure which of the two is quieter and more reliable.

 

Thanks everyone!

[GHill762]

Ok, I'm leaning towards the Sicce 2.0 (568gph). It's rated at 317gph at 5 feet and 423gph at 3 feet. That should probably be around 370gph at 4 feet?

 

I'm also looking at the Mag 5 (500gph). Rated at 295gph at 4 feet.

 

Either or, should work for me. Just not sure which of the two is quieter and more reliable.

 

Thanks everyone!

I think sicce's get pretty good reviews. my experience with mag pumps is hit or miss, my mag 7 was always super noisy, my mag 5 was noisy for a day or two and has been quiet ever since (took a couple days to break in)..

[SmoothSmoke]

Ok, Sicce sounds the way to go.

 

I'll probably start a build thread once all the equipment arrives.

[ManGups]

Ok, I'm leaning towards the Sicce 2.0 (568gph). It's rated at 317gph at 5 feet and 423gph at 3 feet. That should probably be around 370gph at 4 feet?

 

I'm also looking at the Mag 5 (500gph). Rated at 295gph at 4 feet.

 

Either or, should work for me. Just not sure which of the two is quieter and more reliable.

 

Thanks everyone!

I am using this .. and it is pretty quite. I have had this for almost a yr now. In fact once I was on vacation the ATO got stuck and it ran dry for some time(not sure for how long). I was expecting it to be damaged and to my surprise nothing .. this was 6 months ago and still running strong.

 

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B006M6MU90/ref=oh_details_o02_s00_i00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

 

Anyways, what every you choose will be submerged so it should not be noisy.