Bottom drain... is it possible or not?

[pardopoz]

Hi guys,

as i designer i'm just kind of obsessed with essential... I'm in the middle of my future tank design and i don't like at all to have equipment in the thank. i just want 4 sides of glass in my reef tank! so i wanted to explore the possibility to eliminate overflow... and to drain water from below...

 

Does anybody think this kind of setup is even possible? has anybody tried it? cannot find any experience. and this is kind of demoralizing... what am i forgetting? Is this just an high failure potential solution no one has the gut to try? or simply perhaps violates physics principles?

 

p.s. i dont want to embed overflow into one rock till the surface of water as i saw somewhere. I just don't like it cause it doesn't satisfy my need of "empty space"... (remember that i'm obsessed... )

 

p.p.s

blue plumbing is return to tank from sump. red plumbing is drain from tank to sump (and goes downstairs).

red syphone has an hole on top...to get air.

 

see attachment...

 

bye

[ll_maynard_ll]

As soon as your power goes out all the water is going to drain into the sump, that's why we use overflows, so the water only drains to the height of the overflow. Plus you would never get the water level in the tank to the height you want, it will constantly be draining to the sump and would only be a little bit above your highest drain line in the tank, or your overflow. You could set a closed loop with your design but not an open loop to a sump. Yes, physics.

[Chew_Magna]

The problem with that setup is that if the power goes off or something fails almost the entire tank will drain down to wherever.

 

The first thing that popped in my head when I started reading it was your first p.s. but I guess that's out the window lol.

 

I have an idea but you'll have to bear with me while I ms paint something up.

[Mojado]

As soon as your power goes out all the water is going to drain into the sump, that's why we use overflows, so the water only drains to the height of the overflow. Plus you would never get the water level in the tank to the height you want, it will constantly be draining to the sump and would only be a little bit above your highest drain line in the tank, or your overflow. You could set a closed loop with your design but not an open loop to a sump. Yes, physics.

 

Not necessarily (regarding water height). It's a game of mass in vs. mass out. As long as you pump more water into the tank than what is exiting via the drain, then you'll raise the water level. I don't know how'd you ensure that your return water gph = drain water gph once you get to your desired water height.

[nibor]

This system does have an overflow. It is at the water level in the red tube shown to the right of the tank.

 

I see two problems, back siphoning through the return and the red tubing below the display before the overflow acting as a sediment trap.

[pardopoz]

As soon as your power goes out all the water is going to drain into the sump, that's why we use overflows, so the water only drains to the height of the overflow. Plus you would never get the water level in the tank to the height you want, it will constantly be draining to the sump and would only be a little bit above your highest drain line in the tank, or your overflow. You could set a closed loop with your design but not an open loop to a sump. Yes, physics.

 

Perhaps you're right but look at the red syphon in the wall on rigth, with an hole on top for the air... The same heigt as water level... Still the same opinion?

[Chew_Magna]

Well, I had another more complicated idea but then another idea hit me. Is the right side of the tank against a wall? If it is then you could easily hide a pvc drain going down to a sump. If it isn't against a wall you could build a sort of "maintenance closet" beside the tank and hide the pipe in there, sort of like a bigger L shaped tank stand.

 

 

Simple pvc overflow with nothing but a basket on the end. The other lfs here in town has several tanks set up this way. If there was a wall right beside the tank the pvc could be hidden inside it no problem.

 

As for the return part, normally it would drain the entire tank the instant power went off or you turned your pumps off. So install one of two of these (a second in case one fails). http://www.homedepot.com/p/Homewerks-Worldwide-1-in-PVC-Sch-40-S-x-S-In-Line-Check-Valve-VCKP40E5B/204237838#.UktS3obryDU I'd plumb them pretty close to the sump so the excess water in the pipe below the check valve is all that drains down.

 

You can't get away entirely with an equipment clean tank, you'll have the mp10's or whatever there anyway, a simple basket is smaller than one of those.

[pardopoz]

This system does have an overflow. It is at the water level in the red tube shown to the right of the tank.I see two problems, back siphoning through the return and the red tubing below the display before the overflow acting as a sediment trap.

Ok i see you noticed the red tube on right! For back siphoning on return, i thought about a one way valve. I sow several underwater return. I think it's feaseble cause people do it... For sediment i thogut abot this solution. See that larger red tubes below the drain? They will be removable for scheduled cleaning...Thank you!

 

Well, I had another more complicated idea but then another idea hit me. Is the right side of the tank against a wall? If it is then you could easily hide a pvc drain going down to a sump.

. It.s near a wall but i wanted to be detached from it ( 30 cm...)

[nibor]

Ok i see you noticed the red tube on right! For back siphoning on return, i thought about a one way valve. I sow several underwater return. I think it's feaseble cause people do it...

 

For sediment i thogut abot this solution. See that larger red tubes below the drain? They will be removable for scheduled cleaning...

 

Thank you!. It.s near a wall but i wanted to be detached from it ( 30 cm...)

I noticed the traps below the drains. I still think you will get some sediment in the tube.

 

You are taking a big risk using check valves as the only way of preventing a flood in a power cut. If you are out all day and the return is not running, it only takes a very slow leak to drain a lot of water. Maybe you could create a system a bit like the drain for the return?

 

I think you are compromising practicality and ease of maintenance for looks. Good design is about more than aesthetics......

[ReviloM]

It won't work.

 

Scenario: Think about your bath tub. If you leave the stopper raised, water will drain. Now turn on the faucet to the max. It works right....but only because the water is fed to your home. Now consider that the water is forced electronically. It's storming. Power goes out. No way to pump water back. It drains the tub completely.

 

 

2nd: the siphon will be great, depending on pipe size, and it will suck in your livestock. With an overflow, it just flows over with suction only in the overflow box but with your build it becomes like a drain in a pool.

[Rollermonkey]

I can think of one way to do it:

 

Side-by-side.

 

The level of water in the sump must be as high as the water in the DT.

 

You could put the sump in another room if you must keep the display clean, as long as the two tanks are at the same level. Then, you pump water back and forth. If power failed, you'd lose flow, but the levels would remain constant and it wouldn't matter if the drain was flush with the glass or an inch from the top.

 

In this setup, I don't think that you could use gravity for your overflow, though. Pretty sure that you'd have to pump both ways. The pump would overtake gravity and you'd overflow the DT if you don't pump back to the sump, too.

 

It takes a lot more real estate, but it'd work for what you're describing in the DT.

 

 

The only other thing I can imagine is if after you build, fill, and stock the tank, seal the top, airtight. You'd have to broadcast feed into the return pump, no target feeding at all, and no fragging corals...

 

Yeah, that'd be a short-lived design.

[Tochtli]

How about multiple drains going a small distance to external pumps which pump water to the sump, and in the sump, having multiple pumps to send the water back. Redundancy could be really important here in the event a pump goes off. And maybe use ball valves so you can shut off pipes. Seems like calculating the proper amount of flow would be difficult, though.

 

Or

 

The tank and sump at the same height, and a sump with the same or a greater volume capacity, with a pump(s) going from your drain to the sump. If the pump fails, you won't (or at least shouldn't) have water going anywhere, it would just sit in the pipes and in the sump, since you wouldn't have a siphon or a gravity fed outflow.

 

Or

 

How about having your standpipes (which are hidden in those rocks, right?) high enough that in the event that you lose inflow,you can only lose x amount of water from the display. X being the amount needed to maintain the water level at the height of your corals and allowing your fish to swim upright. The sump would obviously have to be large enough to hold the complete volume of water.

 

Just some food for thought.

[pardopoz]

"How about having your standpipes (which are hidden in those rocks, right?) high enough that in the event that you lose inflow

 

Hi, i totally agree with you on this. i think that the higer point of rock will be at half height of tank. sufficient for preventing disaster (corals can stay to of water (thi do it in nature).

[Whys]

2nd: the siphon will be great, depending on pipe size, and it will suck in your livestock. With an overflow, it just flows over with suction only in the overflow box but with your build it becomes like a drain in a pool.

 

^^^this.

 

The full weight of the tank water will try to force itself down thru the drain. Even with a screen, anything that goes anywhere near it will get trapped and the screen will become clogged.

[VABumpkin]

Why not just do an external overflow on the side or back? So your tank isn't losing any space, the overflow box would just be jutting out of the outside. You can still drill it and have the same functionality as an internal overflow box. The plan you're trying to do is just a whole lot of work and risk for pretty much nothing. Also your claim that the corals can stay out of water isn't really applicable to this. If your power is out for more than 1-2 hours your corals are done for.

[pardopoz]

Good design is about more than aesthetics......

Nibor, your suggestions are really precious. i'll think about return and something for debris...

For this last adivise, i have to say that speaking about aestetics design, i cannot let plumbing drive my design... that's the reason i'm exploring this idea.

Otherwise following this concept, dining rooms would look like tv room in hospitals... Linoleum is more practical,why everybody loves parquet? bye!

[Whys]

I like your willingness to experiment. Good luck! Let us know how it goes.

[pardopoz]

^^^this.

 

The full weight of the tank water will try to force itself down thru the drain. Even with a screen, anything that goes anywhere near it will get trapped and the screen will become clogged.

 

i see your point on this. in fact that's my Number one fear. ok i'm pretty convinced i didn't have such a good idea...

 

but i cannot understand this thing of water going away as in my sink, giving that i have the open loop on the right.... and as Niber says, i can also do it for return solving also taht problem... i still wanna try this. I'm gonna do this small scale. Just want to explore the concept and learn from it.

 

stay tuned for results... if interested

[Mike Savage]

Definitely interested. Maybe you could have your overflow at one end. The tank would still have "empty space" and you would have surface skimming to help eliminate the protein slick on top of the water. Personally I would try to eliminate or hide the powerheads too.

[pardopoz]

here is an update of th project in reply to what suggested...

 

-"return line is a point of failure in case of power loss, one way valve not sufficient"

added an open loop on right also for return line...blue

 

-"drain will soon get stuck by debris".

thought about something... see the pics... inside there is a movement pump. its purpose il to eliminate the problem by woking at max power 5 times per day for 10 seconds...

 

think w're going a little "extreme" here...

[VABumpkin]

I still don't understand why you can't do a regular overflow. This isn't some kind of break through design, it's bulky and over-complicated if you ask me.

[frags]

You wont have any surface skimming!

[Whys]

I still don't understand why you can't do a regular overflow. This isn't some kind of break through design, it's bulky and over-complicated if you ask me.

 

Actually, I finally get it. It's ZERO artificial profile. Now I'm excited.

 

 

The more I think on how you have those vertical pipes on the right, the more you convince me that this is doable. Are you going to use starphire glass perchance? I think frags has hit on it tho. How will you prevent surface scum?

 

edit: oh, but those powerheads... closed loop instead?

[Psychosis]

This all seems like it would work fine, given the siphon breaks. I think many of the above posters where just a bit confused and assumed you meant a straight line to the sump (which is a very frequent question asked of the board.)

 

I would be concerned about the break for the return, simply because that many additional bends + a basement sump = massive pump to overcome headloss, which means more heat and energy spent. I'm assuming the drain lines are going to be run through a floating wall, perhaps keep the 90 degree elbows to a minimum by keeping the line straight and simply attaching flare nozzles over the edge of the tank would be a better option? I'm not certain of how much headloss you'll have to overcome of course, but it's something to keep in mind.

 

Another thing to consider is simple ease of access, I see you have the bulk of the plumbing concealed with in the "legs" of your stand. Are you going to have an access panel in each leg? Speaking of access, will you be able to reach the overflow portions on the bottom of the tank? I'd say a pump contained over the drain line would be ill advised, since you need to reach them to maintain them on a consistent basis given the proposed function. I think a stand pipe built with in the rockwork that can be accessed by moving a minimal amount of your 'scape is a better idea. It doesn't necessarily have to reach the water line given your design, but keeping it with in reach would be a great idea.

 

In regard to what I assume are MP pumps, I think a closed loop would be another thing to consider. I can't find the thread now, but a gentleman had invisible overflows (essentially corner overflows that just covered the silicone seams, flowing in to a very complicated bit of plumbing I couldn't begin to describe) and 3 separate pumps. Each pump had a drain hidden in the rockwork, and a return hidden in the rockwork. Sculpting LR on to PVC, when done correctly, made the entire system undetectable. It looked great.

 

Not to sound like a nay sayer, these are simply things to be aware of as your design evolves. None of these items are huge issues, either. I don't envy all of the dry wall work you're setting yourself up for.

[Rollermonkey]

Oh... I get it now. You've made a trap, like under any kitchen sink, and are using that to prevent the tank draining to the sump in case of power loss. That explains the detritus comments.

 

As long as you get the height of the U-bend correct, it ought to work, but as mentioned, pumping up from the lower floor through all those turns is going to require a pretty monstrous pump to overcome the static head and backpressure.

 

Can't wait to see an actual build thread on this.