How do I build a Scallop Sanctuary?

[Spencer7]

I need to build a scallop/mussel/sessile invert only tank.

 

 

DSB? I assume lighting isn't a huge necessity?

 

Feeding is however. It will most likely be in a 20 Long or in a 9gal cube, is bigger better?

 

What kind of flow? What food should I spot feed with? Low Temp b/c they're deep water?

 

 

Lastly, what about filtration? Do I want the food to stay in the system a bit? I assume I don't need to have the water crystal clear. That said, protein skimmer? Mechanical? Nothing?

 

I can do weekly 50% WC's with my SPS tank water which may be the best method.

The more responses the better, feel free to give some links to similar setups.

[BulkRate]

Heh. I like the concept of "needing" to build a special purpose tank.

 

How large are you looking at? Pico/nano capacity, or larger? From what I understand your biggest hurdle will be adequate filtration to handle significantly more frequent feedings of phytoplankton-grade foods than if running a more typical reef tank. But not skimming the water into an ULNS wasteland.

 

Perhaps something as simple as adding an AC70 you replace the floss on every day or so?

[Spencer7]

I actually do have a AC70 I can use.

 

Like I said, I can do 20 gallons or 9 gallons.

[BulkRate]

Huh, sorry about the lack of reading comprehension from your OP. 4 hours sleep due to teething baby will do that to a guy.

 

Maybe a 12 gallon long tank like the Mr Aqua's? on the plus side, you don't need to worry much about lighting.

[Spencer7]

I think there is some miscommunication going on.

 

I have a 9 and 20 in my possession right now.

[BulkRate]

I read you... I just think the 12-gallon 3' tanks look cool.

 

But IMO if you've already got 'em I'd go with the 9, and make large water swaps and every-other-day floss changes part of the regimen. Big is better most cases, but I suspect frequent 50% water changes will be easier (and therefore more likely to happen) on the smaller cube.

 

Curious though... I haven't seen a lot of sessile inverts for sale in the tropical (as in warm-water reef) scene, other than the flame/electric flame scallops (at least according to liveaquaria's site) + clams. Most mussels/oysters I've come across have been temperate dwellers... link to some you're eyeballing?

[Spencer7]

Ignore my sessile invert comment. The Mr. Aqua tank does look nice, maybe I will get it because it is in fact very cheap.

 

It will probably just be mussels and scallops. I don't know if I'll need a chiller.

 

The 20 L works out perfect as far as WC's b/c I do 10g WC's weekly on my SPS tank, so it would be super quick to just dump/siphon right into the invert tank.

 

That brings up the question of how often I'm doing WC's, if I'm doing them more often than would I be saving the water that I siphon for days in a bucket, which result in die off of any critters in the water. I don't feel like having a circulating vat of old water to use every other day.

 

What do I do for flow? I could use the 9g as a Carlson surge resovoir for the 20L. I'm just familiar with the method and seems very messy, loud, and like extra unnecessary work?

[BulkRate]

The big problem with flame scallops is that they have practically only two states of being; eating or starving. They show up from time to time here and it's a constant temptation to get one. But they're very likely to slowly starve to death in a tank that's not set up from the get-go to support them.

 

I like your tiered water change idea... a lot. Pure new mix water for your main tank, change water goes through your scallop tank where you can feed planktonic foods heavily (either a couple times a day or via dosing pump), knowing that you're able to purge the smaller tank as often as need be to keep the water from fouling. Your entire system(s) would likely benefit.

 

A polite and completely-intended-to-be-non-sarcastic observation... how is holding your change water in a bucket for a day or two much different than it being in a tank? Add a cheapie stick heater to keep the temp relatively close and keep a lid on it to keep the salinity from fluctuating and you should be fine. Props if you plumb in a low-end powerhead or the like to handle siphoning from your main tank, interim circulation and then pumping into your scallop sanctuary.

 

Anyone else wanna weigh in here? I'm looking forward to the build thread on this.

[albertthiel]

I need to build a scallop/mussel/sessile invert only tank.

 

 

DSB? I assume lighting isn't a huge necessity?

 

Feeding is however. It will most likely be in a 20 Long or in a 9gal cube, is bigger better?

 

What kind of flow? What food should I spot feed with? Low Temp b/c they're deep water?

 

 

Lastly, what about filtration? Do I want the food to stay in the system a bit? I assume I don't need to have the water crystal clear. That said, protein skimmer? Mechanical? Nothing?

 

I can do weekly 50% WC's with my SPS tank water which may be the best method.

The more responses the better, feel free to give some links to similar setups.

 

Because the survival rate of scallops and especially Flame Scallops is extremely poor I would recommend against setting up such a tank ...

 

http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2002/7/inverts

[albertthiel]

The big problem with flame scallops is that they have practically only two states of being; eating or starving. They show up from time to time here and it's a constant temptation to get one. But they're very likely to slowly starve to death in a tank that's not set up from the get-go to support them.

 

I like your tiered water change idea... a lot. Pure new mix water for your main tank, change water goes through your scallop tank where you can feed planktonic foods heavily (either a couple times a day or via dosing pump), knowing that you're able to purge the smaller tank as often as need be to keep the water from fouling. Your entire system(s) would likely benefit.

 

A polite and completely-intended-to-be-non-sarcastic observation... how is holding your change water in a bucket for a day or two much different than it being in a tank? Add a cheapie stick heater to keep the temp relatively close and keep a lid on it to keep the salinity from fluctuating and you should be fine. Props if you plumb in a low-end powerhead or the like to handle siphoning from your main tank, interim circulation and then pumping into your scallop sanctuary.

 

Anyone else wanna weigh in here? I'm looking forward to the build thread on this.

 

Due to their very poor survival rate, and in line with Conservation efforts and practices, I would recommend against setting up such a tank. It may sound like a good idea and appealing one and one of those let me see whether I can do it (and this is not meant in a negative manner), but it appears to be one of those efforts that is going to be a short lived experiment IMO ... and even if you try a few times based on what is generally being written about Scallops in closed systems .... the likelihood of success is low.

 

If you want to read up a little more on Flame Scallops you can read this article

 

http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2002/7/inverts

 

Albert

 

Ignore my sessile invert comment. The Mr. Aqua tank does look nice, maybe I will get it because it is in fact very cheap.

 

It will probably just be mussels and scallops. I don't know if I'll need a chiller.

 

The 20 L works out perfect as far as WC's b/c I do 10g WC's weekly on my SPS tank, so it would be super quick to just dump/siphon right into the invert tank.

 

That brings up the question of how often I'm doing WC's, if I'm doing them more often than would I be saving the water that I siphon for days in a bucket, which result in die off of any critters in the water. I don't feel like having a circulating vat of old water to use every other day.

 

What do I do for flow? I could use the 9g as a Carlson surge resovoir for the 20L. I'm just familiar with the method and seems very messy, loud, and like extra unnecessary work?

 

See my comment made above .... I personally would not try it ...

 

Albert

[Spencer7]

I am doing research on them for a school class and will most likely need to have specimens at hand, I wasn't asking if I should or not.

 

This isn't a long term, trying to make an amazing looking display tank, this is a somewhat temporary research tank.

 

 

 

If one starts to look like it's dying I'll just bring it back to the store and put it in a bigger tank.

 

 

Due to their very poor survival rate, and in line with Conservation efforts and practices, I would recommend against setting up such a tank. It may sound like a good idea and appealing one and one of those let me see whether I can do it (and this is not meant in a negative manner), but it appears to be one of those efforts that is going to be a short lived experiment IMO ... and even if you try a few times based on what is generally being written about Scallops in closed systems .... the likelihood of success is low.

 

If you want to read up a little more on Flame Scallops you can read this article

 

http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2002/7/inverts

I'm not doing it b/c I think they're pretty

[gogo]

I need to build a scallop/mussel/sessile invert only tank.

 

 

DSB? I assume lighting isn't a huge necessity?

 

Feeding is however. It will most likely be in a 20 Long or in a 9gal cube, is bigger better?

 

What kind of flow? What food should I spot feed with? Low Temp b/c they're deep water?

 

 

Lastly, what about filtration? Do I want the food to stay in the system a bit? I assume I don't need to have the water crystal clear. That said, protein skimmer? Mechanical? Nothing?

 

I can do weekly 50% WC's with my SPS tank water which may be the best method.

The more responses the better, feel free to give some links to similar setups.

i have a 2.6 gal cylinder vase, i dose at least fivehundred mls of live phyto into it daily. then i manually feed another few hundred mls everyother day or so. i also use live rotifers roti rich reef roids and chroma plex... everything is air driven so plankton thrive. you need a nicely aged sandbed, and you must feed more than once a day of at least one living plankton. serously... this is what i have to keep a coupla sabellid worms and a flame scallop alive in a vase.

[jack1978]

i have a 2.6 gal cylinder vase, i dose at least fivehundred mls of live phyto into it daily. then i manually feed another few hundred mls everyother day or so. i also use live rotifers roti rich reef roids and chroma plex... everything is air driven so plankton thrive. you need a nicely aged sandbed, and you must feed more than once a day of at least one living plankton. serously... this is what i have to keep a coupla sabellid worms and a flame scallop alive in a vase.

 

Any pics? It'd be cool to see. How long have you had the flame?

[BulkRate]

Thanks for weighing in Albert... but in all fairness Spencer asked "how" not "should". Linking a 14 year old article and saying "don't" ignores one of the best aspects of our hobby - the almost mind-blowing rate of progress from "impossible" to "sitting on my table". Your own renewed presence in the industry (and recent book; congratulations BTW) are testament to this.

 

Also keep in mind - the creature's already been removed from its native environment - even if Spencer does not proceed that particular animal's never going to be put back; at best we're looking into how well/or not it's going to be kept for the rest of its life. (not meaning to be a pessimist or ignore the ethical/conservation considerations)

 

Personally, I've never attempted to keep a scallop. Been almost to the point of purchase but always fell back to the near certainty that I couldn't provide the habitat required to do so. Spencer SEEMS to have addressed the major points of failure - the quantity of phytoplankton and liquid foods required to be suspended in the water column to keep up with a scallop's feeding habits is an anathema to all water quality requirements for reef tanks of any size; he appears to have got that problem licked by staged water changes off a larger system and setting up a bivalve-only tank. Admittedly he MAY also run into issues with what particular planktonic foods will be accepted - for that the article you provided IS most helpful as Toonen goes into preferred foods in pretty good detail.

 

Any other particular pitfalls that may be being missed or overlooked?

[ZephNYC]

I agree with Mr. Thiel. Good luck, your'e going to need it.

[albertthiel]

Thanks for weighing in Albert... but in all fairness Spencer asked "how" not "should". Linking a 14 year old article and saying "don't" ignores one of the best aspects of our hobby - the almost mind-blowing rate of progress from "impossible" to "sitting on my table". Your own renewed presence in the industry (and recent book; congratulations BTW) are testament to this.

 

Also keep in mind - the creature's already been removed from its native environment - even if Spencer does not proceed that particular animal's never going to be put back; at best we're looking into how well/or not it's going to be kept for the rest of its life. (not meaning to be a pessimist or ignore the ethical/conservation considerations)

 

Personally, I've never attempted to keep a scallop. Been almost to the point of purchase but always fell back to the near certainty that I couldn't provide the habitat required to do so. Spencer SEEMS to have addressed the major points of failure - the quantity of phytoplankton and liquid foods required to be suspended in the water column to keep up with a scallop's feeding habits is an anathema to all water quality requirements for reef tanks of any size; he appears to have got that problem licked by staged water changes off a larger system and setting up a bivalve-only tank. Admittedly he MAY also run into issues with what particular planktonic foods will be accepted - for that the article you provided IS most helpful as Toonen goes into preferred foods in pretty good detail.

 

Any other particular pitfalls that may be being missed or overlooked?

 

No disrespect meant here, but posts on forums in 2010. 2011, 2013 etc .... still report that hobbyists cannot get them to survive ...

 

Yes, the article was from years ago, but current posts indicate exactly the same ... they just do not survive.

 

Of course if he wants to set up such a tank, that is his decision and not for me to make value judgements on. All I am saying is "not a good idea at all given the experiences a lot of other hobbyists have had and still have".

 

All you need to do is do a search for "survival rate of Scallops in Aquariums (or use captivity instead)" and then look for recent posts and you will find exactly the same comments ... survival rate : about 6 months .... and that is even for those who feed and feed and even soak them in a separate bucket laden with food on a regular basis and then put them back in the aquarium.

 

So my suggestion remains the same.

[gogo]

Any pics? It'd be cool to see. How long have you had the flame?

how the hell do i post more than 10mb?

[gogo]

how the hell do i post more than 10mb?

i really want to reply to this with pictures but i've seem to reach my max. im gonna try galleries....

the 'electric' flame scallop i purchased friday may 24. i seriously feed large amounts of phyto to my animals... if you're gonna try them, i seriously recommend culturing live phytos.... at least two species... plus backups....i'm using dunaliella and nannochloropsis at the moment... sometimes tetraselmis.

[gogo]

Any pics? It'd be cool to see. How long have you had the flame?

i posted a couple in the inverts galleries..

[jack1978]

i posted a couple in the inverts galleries..

Thanks, I'll check them out.

[Spencer7]

Well it seems we have hit a very hot topic here

 

All I can say is that I need to take samples from some Flame Scallops (not harming them or killing them), which means I need to come in contact (FACT) with some at some point in the near future, still following? So these scallops will either be brought into the LFS where they will slowly die (they are not fed whatsoever) or be sold to some random hobbyist who I can guarantee is not going through any of the previously listed efforts.

 

That's when I come in with a system catered to their needs where they would be better off rather than at the LFS or some scrubs FOWLR tank. I would keep them for a few months and after that, who knows? I may just put them into a large 180 (or even a 1000g reef) or if they are doing great and it's not too much of a hassle I'll keep them.

 

Albert (and associates), at the very least your advice would prolong their short lives and make their deaths a bit more peaceful/less painful.

[albertthiel]

Well it seems we have hit a very hot topic here

 

All I can say is that I need to take samples from some Flame Scallops (not harming them or killing them), which means I need to come in contact (FACT) with some at some point in the near future, still following? So these scallops will either be brought into the LFS where they will slowly die (they are not fed whatsoever) or be sold to some random hobbyist who I can guarantee is not going through any of the previously listed efforts.

 

That's when I come in with a system catered to their needs where they would be better off rather than at the LFS or some scrubs FOWLR tank. I would keep them for a few months and after that, who knows? I may just put them into a large 180 (or even a 1000g reef) or if they are doing great and it's not too much of a hassle I'll keep them.

 

Albert (and associates), at the very least your advice would prolong their short lives and make their deaths a bit more peaceful/less painful.

 

Good luck with them and if you are going to MACNA ask as many people as can, especially speakers, about their suggestions

[BulkRate]

Spencer7-

 

To confess, it's not exactly your topic, or some of the responses that are egging me on this one. Albert makes some very good points and I'm not intending to dismiss his insights. Plus progress over the past fourteen years doesn't always mean "involving this". I don't advocate keeping flame scallops in captive tanks per se - the state of the art of this hobby is nowhere near there yet. But steps like what you're trying is what drives improvement. I suspect we'll learn a thing or two from this should it be built and the results shared, even if it's "nope, this doesn't work".

 

An example of the point I'm attempting to make; 10-15 years ago mandarin dragonets were regarded as IMPOSSIBLE fish and doomed to die when kept in aquaria. Then somewhere along the way some people took a long hard look as to why. New foods were concocted & introduced. Husbandry practices revised (i.e. target feed instead of foraging as the primary feeding method) and tankmate choices narrowed. Build plans got altered. Breeding hobbyists got involved (who tend to observe & document the living tar out of anything they're attempting to rear). Flash forward to now and we have a 20+ page thread of people keeping them (on this forum alone) to one degree of success or another. I'm not saying keeping flame scallops will become as easy as tank-raised clownfish as of yet.

 

But all progress starts with "how?".

 

That last bit from Albert's a good one though - if nothing else raising the issue with a few experts at MACNA might at the least lead to an updated round of published articles documenting the hurdles faced in keeping them.

[albertthiel]

Spencer7-

 

To confess, it's not exactly your topic, or some of the responses that are egging me on this one. Albert makes some very good points and I'm not intending to dismiss his insights. Plus progress over the past fourteen years doesn't always mean "involving this". I don't advocate keeping flame scallops in captive tanks per se - the state of the art of this hobby is nowhere near there yet. But steps like what you're trying is what drives improvement. I suspect we'll learn a thing or two from this should it be built and the results shared, even if it's "nope, this doesn't work".

 

An example of the point I'm attempting to make; 10-15 years ago mandarin dragonets were regarded as IMPOSSIBLE fish and doomed to die when kept in aquaria. Then somewhere along the way some people took a long hard look as to why. New foods were concocted & introduced. Husbandry practices revised (i.e. target feed instead of foraging as the primary feeding method) and tankmate choices narrowed. Build plans got altered. Breeding hobbyists got involved (who tend to observe & document the living tar out of anything they're attempting to rear). Flash forward to now and we have a 20+ page thread of people keeping them (on this forum alone) to one degree of success or another. I'm not saying keeping flame scallops will become as easy as tank-raised clownfish as of yet.

 

But all progress starts with "how?".

 

That last bit from Albert's a good one though - if nothing else raising the issue with a few experts at MACNA might at the least lead to an updated round of published articles documenting the hurdles faced in keeping them.

 

Thanks Bulkrate and yes there is no doubt that as time goes by that discoveries are made and that new techniques, foods, equipment, knowledge etc ... come about ... and in the case of the Mandarin Fish that is certainly true ... and in the case of captive breeding and coral fragging etc .. that has certainly been the case, but consider that there are some areas where before we go into experimenting in closed systems there are some life forms that are best studied a lot more and in a lot more detail in the wild, before we attempt to keep them in captivity ... case in point, expert hobbyists have been trying to keep Moorish Idols for decades and yet most do not succeed to keep them alive for a few months, maybe a year or so (and yes there are exceptions but what kept them alive for say 4 or 5 years has not been discovered). Then take some anemones that are very short lived in captivity and not for the lack of trying by Hobbyists ... but the survival rate of some is just not assured as the exact requirements to keep them alive are again not know, even if some manage to keep them for a long time, and have them split and multiply, but cannot explain why ... so that the method could be universally applied.

 

Anyway yes research is needed and must happen but is, IMO, best left to researchers/scientists and Marine Biologists and those at Public Aquariums who have more tools and resources to conduct such research and study than what typically a Hobbyist has access to.

 

But I guess we could go on and on ... and I respect your approach and viewpoint and am just writing down in the various messages what mine is. We may differ in opinions and that is fine, and in fact good, as other readers get to be exposed to differing and perhaps at times opposing viewpoints. Hopefully that will allow them to make decisions as to whether they want to keep certain fish or certain corals, or certain other life forms in captivity.

 

FWiW

[BulkRate]

Agreed. Sometimes the answer stubbornly remains "nope" no matter how many approaches are tried. It's just that this one seems the most credible of succeeding I've seen in some time.

 

Keep us posted, regardless of your choice Spencer!