GTi Posted April 20, 2013 Share Posted April 20, 2013 Fascinating thread! I'm tagging along to see how things progress. When I read this the other night I thought about setting one up myself. Before I do anything I wonder if you have any input on these thoughts. Modern houses are built tight for energy conservation purposes and have a higher CO2 content than ambient air outside. Does this mean the inside air also has less oxygen? What I was wondering was whether running an air line from outside to the skimmer would boost dissolved oxygen in the tank and possibly have a smaller benefit but require no additional maintenance? I have heard of people pulling in outside air in to the skimmer to help raise pH due to less dissolved CO2 but didn't know if there would be a benefit of more O2 as well and whether the relatively small amount would be have any noticeable benefit. Link to comment
albertthiel Posted April 20, 2013 Share Posted April 20, 2013 Fascinating thread! I'm tagging along to see how things progress. When I read this the other night I thought about setting one up myself. Before I do anything I wonder if you have any input on these thoughts. Modern houses are built tight for energy conservation purposes and have a higher CO2 content than ambient air outside. Does this mean the inside air also has less oxygen? What I was wondering was whether running an air line from outside to the skimmer would boost dissolved oxygen in the tank and possibly have a smaller benefit but require no additional maintenance? I have heard of people pulling in outside air in to the skimmer to help raise pH due to less dissolved CO2 but didn't know if there would be a benefit of more O2 as well and whether the relatively small amount would be have any noticeable benefit. Yes it should reduce CO2 you pull in if your tank is in a closed room with not much outside ventilation and when you do so with less CO2 going in the tank it will help with the pH Whether it will increase O2 depends on what your levels now are as if you are at saturation no increase will occur but with the Oxydator you will see more water purification and clearer water and less free floating algae in the water and far fewer growing on the glass of the tank than used to be the case as you may have read. There are other benefits and you have probably read those as you went though the thread islandoftiki started Link to comment
atoll Posted April 20, 2013 Share Posted April 20, 2013 As the peroxide breaks down into both O2 and H2O not only is the 02 expelled but the H2O with it. The phial can become completely deviod with just O2 left in it. Given the rate O2 is being expelled from your Oxydator I doubt the peroxide will last more than a few days. Just be careful you don't over do it and cause problems in the tank. Link to comment
albertthiel Posted April 20, 2013 Share Posted April 20, 2013 Thanks Albert! You are welcome ... As the peroxide breaks down into both O2 and H2O not only is the 02 expelled but the H2O with it. The phial can become completely deviod with just O2 left in it. Given the rate O2 is being expelled from your Oxydator I doubt the peroxide will last more than a few days. Just be careful you don't over do it and cause problems in the tank. Les from a true oxydator indeed but in this case since the O2 comes out at the top I do not think the H2O will get out of the container, and it will just dilute the H2O2 more and more ... at least that is what happened to the DIY I made ... fluid remained but reaction and oxygen release stopped. Link to comment
Speaker73 Posted April 20, 2013 Share Posted April 20, 2013 Ok. So let me start by saying that I'm a total noob at these things and my chemistry knowledge is pitiful but I may have a suggestion for making the gaseous O2 last longer. Why don't you hook up a needle valve and bubble counter to help regulate the amount of O2 that is being released into the tank. This would probably allow your set up to last a bit longer and allows fine control over the amount of O2. I am thinking of something that has been used for years in FW planted tanks to control the amount of CO2 that is released. Just a thought. Link to comment
Islandoftiki Posted April 20, 2013 Author Share Posted April 20, 2013 Good afternoon everyone, Here's what we have this morning... The amount of bubbles has reduced to about half of what's shown in the 2nd video with the epic music. It's closer to the first video now. Ok. So let me start by saying that I'm a total noob at these things and my chemistry knowledge is pitiful but I may have a suggestion for making the gaseous O2 last longer. Why don't you hook up a needle valve and bubble counter to help regulate the amount of O2 that is being released into the tank. This would probably allow your set up to last a bit longer and allows fine control over the amount of O2. I am thinking of something that has been used for years in FW planted tanks to control the amount of CO2 that is released. Just a thought. I'm not sure what the effect of restricting the pressure in the holding container would be. Hopefully not a hydrogen peroxide bomb. Mind you, the containers I'm using will probably pop the lid long before a seam would rupture. I'm not sure what the maximum pressure would be if you capped off or restricted the container, but you have my curiosity piqued now. I'll have to bring a pressure gauge home from work and see... or cap off a soda bottle with H2O2 and a catalyst and see if it pops! Link to comment
albertthiel Posted April 20, 2013 Share Posted April 20, 2013 Good afternoon everyone, Here's what we have this morning... The amount of bubbles has reduced to about half of what's shown in the 2nd video with the epic music. It's closer to the first video now. I'm not sure what the effect of restricting the pressure in the holding container would be. Hopefully not a hydrogen peroxide bomb. Mind you, the containers I'm using will probably pop the lid long before a seam would rupture. I'm not sure what the maximum pressure would be if you capped off or restricted the container, but you have my curiosity piqued now. I'll have to bring a pressure gauge home from work and see... or cap off a soda bottle with H2O2 and a catalyst and see if it pops! Yes that is kind of what I expected as that is what happened to my DIY one ... since no fluid escapes from the container the peroxide gets watered down (pun intended) ... and so less strength and so less reaction and less O2. And on restricting the output ... I would not do that due to the pressure that build up inside as you rightfully point out especially when it is running at full blast ... All you can do now is replace the peroxide each time the bubbling gets real low or stops FWIW Link to comment
Islandoftiki Posted April 20, 2013 Author Share Posted April 20, 2013 Keep in mind, the size of the catalyst can be reduced to control the reaction, so I'll also play with that. Obviously there's no need for an excess of oxygen since it will just bubble out into the surrounding atmosphere. What do you folks think about using a freshwater CO2 diffuser instead of an air stone? Link to comment
uglyfish Posted April 20, 2013 Share Posted April 20, 2013 What do you folks think about using a freshwater CO2 diffuser instead of an air stone? Would increase contact time... sounds like it would be more efficient. http://reefbuilders.com/2010/07/30/sera-co2-reactor-pinwheel-mix-carbon-dioxide-ozone-gas/ (probably overkill) Link to comment
albertthiel Posted April 20, 2013 Share Posted April 20, 2013 Keep in mind, the size of the catalyst can be reduced to control the reaction, so I'll also play with that. Obviously there's no need for an excess of oxygen since it will just bubble out into the surrounding atmosphere. What do you folks think about using a freshwater CO2 diffuser instead of an air stone? Very true ... and you could even reduce the strength of the peroxide too ... Not sure about the CO2 diffuser I need to look up what is actually being referred to ... Link to comment
albertthiel Posted April 20, 2013 Share Posted April 20, 2013 Would increase contact time... sounds like it would be more efficient. http://reefbuilders.com/2010/07/30/sera-co2-reactor-pinwheel-mix-carbon-dioxide-ozone-gas/ (probably overkill) I guess it could be done but if the O2 diffuses well into the water it may indeed not be necessary ... Nice device though by Sera ... Albert Ok. So let me start by saying that I'm a total noob at these things and my chemistry knowledge is pitiful but I may have a suggestion for making the gaseous O2 last longer. Why don't you hook up a needle valve and bubble counter to help regulate the amount of O2 that is being released into the tank. This would probably allow your set up to last a bit longer and allows fine control over the amount of O2. I am thinking of something that has been used for years in FW planted tanks to control the amount of CO2 that is released. Just a thought. Yes but that is not a needle valve control .. but a solenoid that either open or closes and lets CO2 in the tank depending on that the pH controller attached to it measures and what its setting is ... I think that is a totally different type of control for the injection of the CO2 and cannot IMO be used here ... FWIW Link to comment
Islandoftiki Posted April 20, 2013 Author Share Posted April 20, 2013 Of course, curiosity got the best of me. What happens if you put common 3% H202 in with a piece of catalyst and cap it off entirely? Let's find out... Link to comment
Islandoftiki Posted April 21, 2013 Author Share Posted April 21, 2013 It's been fizzing away for about 3 hours now and feels like it has about the average pressure you'd find in a normal soda bottle on a hot day. Nothing extreme. Maybe 40-50 psi or so? Soda bottles can hold an awful lot of pressure before bursting. Like 120-180 psi. What fun is an experiment if you don't test some extremes and blow stuff up? Link to comment
albertthiel Posted April 21, 2013 Share Posted April 21, 2013 It's been fizzing away for about 3 hours now and feels like it has about the average pressure you'd find in a normal soda bottle on a hot day. Nothing extreme. Maybe 40-50 psi or so? Soda bottles can hold an awful lot of pressure before bursting. Like 120-180 psi. What fun is an experiment if you don't test some extremes and blow stuff up? Guess it has not start bulging then or blowing up on you .... I can see you like to get to the bottom of things for sure .... Waiting for the next update (with Pics?) Link to comment
albertthiel Posted April 21, 2013 Share Posted April 21, 2013 Mentos You too ... ? Wonder how long the bottle can hold the pressure and whether enough of it will develop and whether O2 is still being produced inside ... we'll see I guess when islandoftiki posts an update ... Link to comment
Speaker73 Posted April 21, 2013 Share Posted April 21, 2013 Yes but that is not a needle valve control .. but a solenoid that either open or closes and lets CO2 in the tank depending on that the pH controller attached to it measures and what its setting is ... I think that is a totally different type of control for the injection of the CO2 and cannot IMO be used here ... FWIW Actually there are needle control valves incorporated into a high tech planted FW tank set up. I have one in mine. I use a solenoid to let CO2 out of the tank right before my lighting comes on but I use a needle control valve that is connected right after the solenoid to control the flow of CO2 from the supply tank to the diffuser. By adjusting the flow (as counted by using a bubble counter) I can fine tune how much CO2 is released into my tank and make sure that I don't "gas" my livestock. I will say that the use of a gas/co2 diffuser needs a fairly high pressure to work. I know they don't work with DIY CO2 setups using yeast/water/sugar because the pressure never gets high enough. I guess I could try it since I have a few diffusers and all I need to do is set up a DIY oxydator. One could also use a hagen ladder reactor or an inline CO2 reactor like we use in FW planted tanks. The ladder is pretty unsightly and I don't know the diffusion rate of O2 into SW so it may or may not work. An inline reactor may work well but its pretty large and may not be feasible on a pico or nano tank. Link to comment
albertthiel Posted April 21, 2013 Share Posted April 21, 2013 Actually there are needle control valves incorporated into a high tech planted FW tank set up. I have one in mine. I use a solenoid to let CO2 out of the tank right before my lighting comes on but I use a needle control valve that is connected right after the solenoid to control the flow of CO2 from the supply tank to the diffuser. By adjusting the flow (as counted by using a bubble counter) I can fine tune how much CO2 is released into my tank and make sure that I don't "gas" my livestock. I will say that the use of a gas/co2 diffuser needs a fairly high pressure to work. I know they don't work with DIY CO2 setups using yeast/water/sugar because the pressure never gets high enough. I guess I could try it since I have a few diffusers and all I need to do is set up a DIY oxydator. One could also use a hagen ladder reactor or an inline CO2 reactor like we use in FW planted tanks. The ladder is pretty unsightly and I don't know the diffusion rate of O2 into SW so it may or may not work. An inline reactor may work well but its pretty large and may not be feasible on a pico or nano tank. Yes I am familiar with those more advanced systems having imported the entire Dupla product range from Germany in the early 1980's specifically for high end plant tanks ... many with Cryptocarynes and other most interesting plants in it ... I also translated "Das Optimale Aquarium" from German to English ( Kipper and Horst Book). Thanks for clarifying ... Link to comment
Speaker73 Posted April 21, 2013 Share Posted April 21, 2013 Yes I am familiar with those more advanced systems having imported the entire Dupla product range from Germany in the early 1980's specifically for high end plant tanks ... many with Cryptocarynes and other most interesting plants in it ... I also translated "Das Optimale Aquarium" from German to English ( Kipper and Horst Book). Thanks for clarifying ... Holy smokes! Is there anything in the aquarium world you haven't done?!?! I swear that every time I read one of your posts I am more and more impressed with your background and knowledge. Link to comment
albertthiel Posted April 21, 2013 Share Posted April 21, 2013 Holy smokes! Is there anything in the aquarium world you haven't done?!?! I swear that every time I read one of your posts I am more and more impressed with your background and knowledge. No need to. But thanks. I have been in the hobby for a loooong time. Link to comment
Islandoftiki Posted April 21, 2013 Author Share Posted April 21, 2013 Ok, folks, nothing exciting yet. The bottle has become really taught and is obviously under fairly high pressure. I'd hedge a guess at 80-90 psi. Don't ask me why I have a good idea of how a soda bottle feels at different pressures. I'll tell you this, if the thing pops, it's gonna make a bang. Anyhow, it's still making lots of little bubbles... Link to comment
albertthiel Posted April 21, 2013 Share Posted April 21, 2013 Ok, folks, nothing exciting yet. The bottle has become really taught and is obviously under fairly high pressure. I'd hedge a guess at 80-90 psi. Don't ask me why I have a good idea of how a soda bottle feels at different pressures. I'll tell you this, if the thing pops, it's gonna make a bang. Anyhow, it's still making lots of little bubbles... Yes if it pops during the night I will wake you up I think Sent from my IPhone Link to comment
Islandoftiki Posted April 21, 2013 Author Share Posted April 21, 2013 And probably send the neighborhood into a panic... Link to comment
albertthiel Posted April 21, 2013 Share Posted April 21, 2013 And probably send the neighborhood into a panic... . Indeed Link to comment
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