LFS Owner Says YOU ARE ALL WRONG!

[mpg732]

My "go to" LFS uses CC and tap water!! His tanks are usually spotless, although I did walk in on him with the toothbrush out scrubbing rocks. I also sometimes catch a little cyano here and there. I think in the LFS business, as with most retail business, presentation is everything. If you have the staff and/or time to clean the tanks every morning before you open you can pretty much tell the retards (us) that come in anything you want and they'll believe it!!

I would agree with you but by the looks of it you are a Bears fan and that"s why I hate you and you are wrong on every thing you say. LOLOLOLOLOL :P :P :P

[henningero]

I would agree with you but by the looks of it you are a Bears fan and that"s why I hate you and you are wrong on every thing you say. LOLOLOLOLOL :P :P :P

 

If you're a Packers fan, I'm sure I hate you more...

[mpg732]

If you're a Packers fan, I'm sure I hate you more...

Well were I live you will get shot if you don't like them. I think its a state law..... :D

 

Least your not a vikings fan.....

Edited August 27, 2012 by mpg732

[delorean1981]

So along with this thread, I'm currently using CC but have seen so many tanks with sand. I thought about removing some of the CC and replacing with sand but I wasn't sure if this would cause issues with the life I have in the tank now.

 

But with Jason777's comment, it seems as if I should just stay with CC and let it be. My tank is going great now so I just may let it be.

[fretfreak13]

Delorean, if you removed your CC and replaced with sand, all the sand would just sink to the bottom of your CC eventually and you'd have two separate layers of substrate. IMO, unless you want to change all of it out, leaving it as it is is probably the best. haha

[delorean1981]

Delorean, if you removed your CC and replaced with sand, all the sand would just sink to the bottom of your CC eventually and you'd have two separate layers of substrate. IMO, unless you want to change all of it out, leaving it as it is is probably the best. haha

 

I was really talking about taking all my CC out, and putting sand in its place but I would imagine that would mess with my parameters. My tank's only been up for the better part of a month and only has a few pieces of coral but I'd rather side with caution and patience and see how the CC works. If not, all the reason to start another tank

[thegambler26]

For what it's worth I used to buy corals from a guy who's business was ran out of his garage. Been doing it for 20+ years. He didnt tell me that his wife was bragging on him.He didnt have any substrate in his frag tanks ,but in his 200+ gal display in his den he had large grain CC substrate I mean complete with full shells and huge chunks. It was around 6 or so inches deep. I asked him why he chose it and he replied with the oxygenation answer from above. He also said he never did any water changes. Which completely blew me away, because this was and is still the most impressive sps and high end display tank I have ever seen. I'm not sure what he used as far as filtration. Guess that It goes to show there's many different theories. I tried CC and my tank ended up looking like s***. Scrapped it and started over with regular sand and have had a much better outcome.

[Haelstrom]

Hes running a business. His first priority is to convince you that he knows more than you or anyone else. Once hes given you the bait and you take it. Then you are his! He will sell you anything he wants. Now I'm not saying he doesn't know what hes doing or anything like that. Just like any other sales. The SALE is first priority. Of course CC is better. He probably sells it in bulk that he crushes himself or makes a much larger profit than the bags of sand he probably sells as well. Of course don't use base rock. He has a whole tank full of Live Rock ready to sell you at $7lbs and he probably doesn't stock base rock as its not as profitable. I'm just guessing at these. But this is what I get from LFS. They feed me all kinds of BS that I just let roll off. An example would be that they claim to be able to put ANY type of coral in a 29g Coralife Biocube and it will thrive. This is stock power compact lighting. Of course I can. They are trying to sell me the cube for $399 and the stand for $199. Which I happen to buy from petsolutions.com for $380 for both. But I have no delusions that it will support any coral out of the box. Even though my LFS says I can. Anyways I feel your pain. Happy reefing.

[Adrnalnrsh]

Tell him I have a barebottom.

[hooligan_78]

Or better yet, STFU, buy your stuff, or don't and GTFO of the store. Noob.

[Ibnzmonkey]

Or better yet, STFU, buy your stuff, or don't and GTFO of the store. Noob.

 

I like what this guy has to say.

[chrssprngs]

When I go to a LFS,I make inquiries about their livestock and talk pricing. If it is one of my regular stores where I know and am friends with the personnel, we shoot the sh##. The last thing they want and I want is to get into a debate about the size and type of substrate or live rock vs. dry rock. That is why I have this forum. I advise inexperienced reefers to use caution when searching for answers at the retail store. From the store owner's perspective, the last thing he wants is some "new to the hobby" know it all coming in and questioning his methods. Kat hit the nail on the head. His objectives and goals are not what mine are, hence different methodologies.

[MeepNand]

So how much does his live rock cost, exactly? He may be right in that seeded base rock is not live rock, but only in that it has fewer species on it than live rock. Base rock is suitable for our tanks.

[Adrnalnrsh]

Well were I live you will get shot if you don't like them.

 

 

I am pretty sure that's in Detroit, not Greenbay! Go Lions!

Edited August 31, 2012 by Adrnalnrsh

[Ibnzmonkey]

His rock was $8.99/Lb.

 

Pricey.

[jason777]

Honestly, there is no universal price for live rock. We like to think that everyone gets their rock from the same distributor and all air freight charges are the same.

 

90% of live rock imported comes from Fiji (Walt Smith Int.) in such huge volumes that the air line he ships with gives him a $1.00/LB cheaper rate than other live rock exporters in Indonesia. That is reflected in the price. If you look at my website or Premium Aquatics, you'll notice that our Fiji rock types cost $1.00/LB cheaper than our live rock varieties from the Indo Pacific. It's not that we're trying to make more money off of Bali rock; It really cost that much more to have it shipped here.

 

In the end, it pays off though IMO. Walt Smith places his rock in huge vats that spray saltwater to remove what we refer to as pests. In a shipment of Bali rock I picked up this morning, I found a treasure trove of invertebrates including a conch, 3 mantis shrimp, a dozen crabs, bumble bee snails, etc. So the extra dollar was worth it.

 

Then we have to consider that domestic air freight averages $.60/LB to most major international airports. Since I'm a six hour drive from Dallas, I have to pay $1.27/LB to have live rock shipped to XNA, which is a smaller regional airport that doesn't have a cargo facility - It's over the counter.

 

So, location is everything in this business. LFS near LAX can drive to the wholesaler and pick up their rock without any air freight charges at all. Which means it's amazing that anybody can remain competitive with them.

 

Then we have the boat rock crowd. Most of the rock from Walt Smith Int. is shoveled aboard cargo containers and loaded aboard ships that take weeks to arrive at Long Beach, CA. It's mostly the rounded boulder shaped rock that doesn't meet Walt's Ultra or Premium grade. Retailers put it in their rock pools for a few weeks and then sell it is as "Premium Fiji", which is a lie. By curing boat rock, they're getting their supply much cheaper than the rest of us. So beware of cheap.

Edited September 1, 2012 by jason777

[mcarroll]

On 8/25/2012 at 8:33 PM, Ibnzmonkey said:

My question is. Why is he telling me to stay away from forums such as N-R? Secret sales tactic? Is he correct about sand and base rock?

First, don't get so worried when you encounter a differing opinion.  

 

Second, online is a hodgepodge of right and wrong info – that's nothing peculiar about nano-reef – so I'm with your LFS guy.  If you don't have a book, get one and read it.  Then read 5 more.  

 

If you did a google search for "dinos" or "dinoflagellates" and reef tanks, you'd find that almost everyone with an outbreak has used dead rock.  Maybe you want to say they misused it....and I think that's his point.  If you start with nothing but dead skeleton – like they did back in the 1970's – then you get predictably bad results unless you take special care or get lucky.  Live rock is better – plain and simple.

 

Crushed coral vs sand is a good case in point of the mishmash of info "out here" on the internet.  What won't you find out though?  That nobody takes care of a sand bed like it needs to be.  Most folks would be better off with a bare bottom tank.  Crushed coral is no worse (or better) than sand, but it's easier to run a gravel vacuum in.  If you aren't going to take care of your sand bed, then you need to be cleaning it out regularly.  A gravel vac is one of the best ways to do that!

 

Check out Ron Shimek's old posts on sand beds to get an idea of how to keep one healthy.   (Not compatible with most folks livestocking plans.)

[jbb]

2 minutes ago, mcarroll said:

First, don't get so worried when you encounter a differing opinion.  

 

Second, online is a hodgepodge of right and wrong info – that's nothing peculiar about nano-reef – so I'm with your LFS guy.  If you don't have a book, get one and read it.  Then read 5 more.  

 

If you did a google search for "dinos" or "dinoflagellates" and reef tanks, you'd find that almost everyone with an outbreak has used dead rock.  Maybe you want to say they misused it....and I think that's his point.  If you start with nothing but dead skeleton – like they did back in the 1970's – then you get predictably bad results unless you take special care or get lucky.  Live rock is better – plain and simple.

 

Crushed coral vs sand is a good case in point of the mishmash of info "out here" on the internet.  What won't you find out though?  That nobody takes care of a sand ben like it needs to be.  Most folks would be better off with a bare bottom tank.  Crushed coral is no worse (or better) than sand, but it's easier to run a gravel vacuum in.  If you aren't going to take care of your sand bed, then you need to be cleaning it out regularly.  A gravel vac is one of the best ways to do that!

 

Check out Ron Shimek's old posts on sand beds to get an idea of how to keep one healthy.   (Not compatible with most folks livestocking plans.)

you did notice this was from 2012 ... right ? 

[WV Reefer]

13 minutes ago, jbb_00 said:

you did notice this was from 2012 ... right ? 

 

17 minutes ago, mcarroll said:

First, don't get so worried when you encounter a differing opinion.  

 

Second, online is a hodgepodge of right and wrong info – that's nothing peculiar about nano-reef – so I'm with your LFS guy.  If you don't have a book, get one and read it.  Then read 5 more.  

 

If you did a google search for "dinos" or "dinoflagellates" and reef tanks, you'd find that almost everyone with an outbreak has used dead rock.  Maybe you want to say they misused it....and I think that's his point.  If you start with nothing but dead skeleton – like they did back in the 1970's – then you get predictably bad results unless you take special care or get lucky.  Live rock is better – plain and simple.

 

Crushed coral vs sand is a good case in point of the mishmash of info "out here" on the internet.  What won't you find out though?  That nobody takes care of a sand bed like it needs to be.  Most folks would be better off with a bare bottom tank.  Crushed coral is no worse (or better) than sand, but it's easier to run a gravel vacuum in.  If you aren't going to take care of your sand bed, then you need to be cleaning it out regularly.  A gravel vac is one of the best ways to do that!

 

Check out Ron Shimek's old posts on sand beds to get an idea of how to keep one healthy.   (Not compatible with most folks livestocking plans.)

Zombie thread. 

[mcarroll]

I've been known to raise em.

[RayWhisperer]

On 8/25/2012 at 7:33 PM, Ibnzmonkey said:

I was out and about today doing some errands when I saw a small hole in the wall saltwater only LFS. I decided to stop in and have a peek at this new to me place. Inside were about a hundred 30 breeders filled with livestock and coral for sale. It was a very professional looking establishment. The owner came out of a back room where he was drilling a tank for a customer. He asked me if I needed any help or had any questions. This is where things got really uncomfortable.

 

I asked "Hey, I noticed you have crushed coral in all of your tanks and they look great. I've read on the forums that C/C is not great for clean up crews that sift and that it always traps detritus. Why do you have C/C in your tanks."

 

He told me that he has been in business for over 20 years and has never used sand in his tanks. He asked me about my build and I said that I was using Carbisea sand because I was going to go with crushed coral, then I got some advice on here to switch to sand, so I did. He then proceeded to tell me to stay away from the forums because you guys didn't know what you were doing! I was like "lolwut". He kept telling me how sand will make more of a nitrate trap than C/C. I was boggled by his logic (or maybe lack thereof?).

 

Then I was asked about my live rock. I told him I went with 40lbs of Carbisea Base rock and I will be seeding it with the 15 or so lbs of live rock that I already have. Again, he mockingly told me "You're doing it wrong. "NEVER USE BASE ROCK." His reasoning was that since it is dead and dry, that it cannot be seeded correctly without spending at least 3 years in ocean water to build up the "correct bacteria". I was advised to toss my base rock in the garbage and buy ONLY 100% live rock.

 

My question is. Why is he telling me to stay away from forums such as N-R? Secret sales tactic? Is he correct about sand and base rock? I really hate going into the store and being made out to be an idiot on my purchases so far. My only comeback to any of his questions was "That's what I read on teh forums" which of course caused him to lulz at me directly to my face.

I read your post. I’m not reading 2 pages worth of posts. There is a really simple answer.

 

there are a thousand ways to run a reef. As long as the LFS owner has the proof to back his claims, he’s not really wrong. There are some things he believes are the best way. I guess I’d say he’s wrong to suggest his way is the only, or best way. If, that is what he was suggesting.

 

Do some research, see what you find for yourself. Don’t take anyone’s word as gold, just use it as a guide in your search for your way of the right way. For example, I’ve used many substrates, but cc was by far the worst for me to maintain. I, personally, would only use live rock from the ocean. I believe Mother Nature makes for a better biological filter than what someone has packaged in a bottle. Doesn’t mean I’m right, and you should only listen to me, though.

 

Edit. 

Lol, someone necroposted and got me. Oh well. Long live dead threads!

[HarryPotter]

49 minutes ago, mcarroll said:

First, don't get so worried when you encounter a differing opinion.  

 

Second, online is a hodgepodge of right and wrong info – that's nothing peculiar about nano-reef – so I'm with your LFS guy.  If you don't have a book, get one and read it.  Then read 5 more.  

 

If you did a google search for "dinos" or "dinoflagellates" and reef tanks, you'd find that almost everyone with an outbreak has used dead rock.  Maybe you want to say they misused it....and I think that's his point.  If you start with nothing but dead skeleton – like they did back in the 1970's – then you get predictably bad results unless you take special care or get lucky.  Live rock is better – plain and simple.

 

Crushed coral vs sand is a good case in point of the mishmash of info "out here" on the internet.  What won't you find out though?  That nobody takes care of a sand bed like it needs to be.  Most folks would be better off with a bare bottom tank.  Crushed coral is no worse (or better) than sand, but it's easier to run a gravel vacuum in.  If you aren't going to take care of your sand bed, then you need to be cleaning it out regularly.  A gravel vac is one of the best ways to do that!

 

Check out Ron Shimek's old posts on sand beds to get an idea of how to keep one healthy.   (Not compatible with most folks livestocking plans.)

 

1. I completely disagree with you regarding dry rock vs live rock 

 

2. Do you not see the irony of saying that online is a hodgepodge of right and wrong info, and then giving so many unsupported (and IMO false) statements? 

 

3. You write with a lot of authority for someone with zero topics on the forum. #KeyboardPHD

[Tamberav]

[mcarroll]

37 minutes ago, HarryPotter said:

 

1. I completely disagree with you regarding dry rock vs live rock 

 

2. Do you not see the irony of saying that online is a hodgepodge of right and wrong info, and then giving so many unsupported (and IMO false) statements? 

 

3. You write with a lot of authority for someone with zero topics on the forum. #KeyboardPHD

 

Don't be so put off by differing opinions!  Instead, share yours.

 

No irony – that was the point.

 

What a thoughtful post!  Thanks for taking your time!

[Lawnman]

I was reading along and bam 2012