LFS Owner Says YOU ARE ALL WRONG!

[Ibnzmonkey]

I was out and about today doing some errands when I saw a small hole in the wall saltwater only LFS. I decided to stop in and have a peek at this new to me place. Inside were about a hundred 30 breeders filled with livestock and coral for sale. It was a very professional looking establishment. The owner came out of a back room where he was drilling a tank for a customer. He asked me if I needed any help or had any questions. This is where things got really uncomfortable.

 

I asked "Hey, I noticed you have crushed coral in all of your tanks and they look great. I've read on the forums that C/C is not great for clean up crews that sift and that it always traps detritus. Why do you have C/C in your tanks."

 

He told me that he has been in business for over 20 years and has never used sand in his tanks. He asked me about my build and I said that I was using Carbisea sand because I was going to go with crushed coral, then I got some advice on here to switch to sand, so I did. He then proceeded to tell me to stay away from the forums because you guys didn't know what you were doing! I was like "lolwut". He kept telling me how sand will make more of a nitrate trap than C/C. I was boggled by his logic (or maybe lack thereof?).

 

Then I was asked about my live rock. I told him I went with 40lbs of Carbisea Base rock and I will be seeding it with the 15 or so lbs of live rock that I already have. Again, he mockingly told me "You're doing it wrong. "NEVER USE BASE ROCK." His reasoning was that since it is dead and dry, that it cannot be seeded correctly without spending at least 3 years in ocean water to build up the "correct bacteria". I was advised to toss my base rock in the garbage and buy ONLY 100% live rock.

 

My question is. Why is he telling me to stay away from forums such as N-R? Secret sales tactic? Is he correct about sand and base rock? I really hate going into the store and being made out to be an idiot on my purchases so far. My only comeback to any of his questions was "That's what I read on teh forums" which of course caused him to lulz at me directly to my face.

[x3thelast]

there's a lfs by me that has only c/c as its substrate in all his tanks. Never really asked why. But all his substrate are sparkling clean.

[1fishmonger]

Lots of people use crushed coral. A lot will depend on the size of the crushed pieces and what your specific application is.. Like nearly EVERYTHING in the hobby... It all depends.

 

His note on base/dead/dry rock is wrong. There are lots of ways to do things in this hobby and education is key.

[Ibnzmonkey]

Lots of people use crushed coral. A lot will depend on the size of the crushed pieces and what your specific application is.. Like nearly EVERYTHING in the hobby... It all depends.

 

His note on base/dead/dry rock is wrong. There are lots of ways to do things in this hobby and education is key.

 

I understand what you mean. I switched to sand because I was advised against CC in my thread. I already have the sand laid in the tank along with my current scape. I am more than likely going to mix in a few more lbs of CC into the mix.

 

I was just curious about his reasoning. The other LFS that I more frequently visit uses bare bottom tanks and their big main display tank also has CC as it's substrate.

 

What about clean up crews? What kind of critters do they use to keep the detritus at bay?

Edited August 26, 2012 by Ibnzmonkey

[gabe3eb]

There are a lot of ways (systems/methods) to keep reefs successfully. Different systems work. You can have just about any type of substrate (or none at all) and be successful. Anyone that thinks there is only one way to keep a tank doesn't know what they are talking about. Go look at all the TOTM threads here or on RC or R2R. You will see folks using sand, cc, and going barebottom. You will see Berlin, Zeovit, and more.

 

The real question is if he doesn't think internet forums are a valid source of information, who or what does he think is? Is he active in a local reef club or is he just doing his thing in a bubble? Either way, I can see how he might get a little defensive if a new guy came into his shop and questioned his methods.

 

3000 gallons is extremely impressive either way.

[Ibnzmonkey]

Either way, I can see how he might get a little defensive if a new guy came into his shop and questioned his methods.

 

3000 gallons is extremely impressive either way.

 

I agree. I wasn't trying to be an ass. He asked me if I had any questions. The thing that stood out to me the most was the CC. So I asked. I wasn't mocking or disrespectful in any way. He had all sorts of amazing fish and coral for sale. I will for sure be going back to make livestock purchases in the future.

[jbb]

There will be many different opinions on this subject im sure so I will give mine.

 

You can have great success with CC as well as with sand, with proper care both can be problem free. I think a big issue with the CC is the fact that there is a ton of vacant space between each "grain" where waste can be trapped and build up causing problems later on. Sand on the other hand doesn't have the open space to gather waste and the flow in your tank can easily carry the debris away. With CC if you vacuum on a regular basis you should be fine , sand is a bit easier, just make sure your free of dead spots and thats it.

 

Base vs. Live

 

There is no reason you cant use base rock, and then seed with cured live rock. I would bet a large majority of reefers use this method. With that said, if it is dry base rock you may notice a longer cycle than you would if you stocked with 100% cured LR. It will take a bit longer for the "seeding" to take place , but not so long that it will be troublesome . I have read where some people have had long term phosphate issues with dry rock, but keeping up with water changes and/or running a phosphate media should help keep the levels under control. It is beneficial for him and his store if you stock with all Live rock, he will make a huge sale for the day. If what you are doing is working , then keep it going. Dont let a store tell you it is wrong if you are having success, what works for you may not work for him, and so on. Any store that tells you to throw away what you have and buy what they recommend , I would be very uncomfortable buying from.

 

The forums are full of very knowledgeable and helpful people. If you are questioning their knowledge, just look at the setup they have , you can see for yourself if they know.

[Deleted User 3]

I understand what you mean. I switched to sand because I was mocked in my thread for using CC. I already have the sand laid in the tank along with my current scape. I am more than likely going to mix in a few more lbs of CC into the mix.

 

I was going to use CC here too, but i got this natures ocean aragonite sand, which was like.. not sand, but not the bigger crushed coral.. it was like inbetween almost. It works alright. He probably meant that nitrates build up in the air pockets and below the sand, so if you stir it can cause a crash, but I would think the same w/ any substrate. Like others said, no one is exactly right because there are a lot of ways to do things. I like what I went with instead of the CC, and haven't been able to sell my entire not used bag, so if you want some we can talk about it

[HVani]

I can almost see where he is coming from on the base rock. Around here base rock means very dense pretty ugly rock. If you are using mostly this type of rock it can take longer to seed because it is not as porous. Now mined dry rock is a different story. It is very porous with lots of holes and places for bacteria to grow. I know for a fact after a few months in my tank you could not tell the difference between my original live rock and my dry rock.

 

For the crushed coral thing, I think it also depends on how deep your substrate is. I have sand mixed with crushed coral because it's great for jawfish. Most LFS I have seen keep a very shallow sand bed so it's easier to clean. In this case I see nothing wrong with crushed coral.

 

As someone said earlier there are many different ways to manage a reef.

[chefcody86]

My local lfs uses aragonite sand about 4-5 mm large sized sand in there coral tanks and they use CC in there fish displays. I am using aragonite the same size as them in my Display and for dsp in my sump. They say It don't really matter. But they sell only large size aragonite sand. A mix is probably the way to go. If they sold CC I wouldv'e used some most likely.

 

Oh and the only thing I've heard bad about small sugar sand is that some snails can't get around the tank and they get disturbed quite easily something you want to avoid. well at least after a month or two.

Edited August 26, 2012 by chefcody86

[metrokat]

I understand what you mean. I switched to sand because I was mocked in my thread for using CC. I already have the sand laid in the tank along with my current scape. I am more than likely going to mix in a few more lbs of CC into the mix.

 

I was just curious about his reasoning. The other LFS that I more frequently visit uses bare bottom tanks and their big main display tank also has CC as it's substrate.

 

What about clean up crews? What kind of critters do they use to keep the detritus at bay?

When were you mocked?!

 

The store you went to is a retail establishment. His entire existence is based on a quick turn over of his livestock while keeping easy to maintain tanks and systems. By the same token our tanks should have little or no live rock, don't LFS have near bare tanks?

 

His sand sifting livestock like gobies, stars, snails, etc would not be found if he had fine sand. I doubt he wants the creatures to get comfortable, he wants them visible and sold.

 

As for the balance of bacteria, in live rock vs dry rock, this is true. Live rock has life therefore has bacteria, there fore is colorful too. Dry rock/base rock is dead rock and sometimes takes very long to color up and cycle the tank. Some people prefer the dry rock to minimize HH, some prefer live rock. Others, like me, prefer uncured rock straight from the ocean.

 

To each his own. I never tell a LFS owner what I read on a forum it never sits well.

[Ibnzmonkey]

When were you mocked?!

 

I guess mocked was the wrong word. Sorry Kat. I should of said "advised against". Another thing I just remembered is that he told me not to buy a DI unit for a RO system. I kind of figured that it was a subtle sales pitch to get me to buy LR. I didn't mention that mine was "mined" base rock though. My Carbisea rock is extremely porous.

 

EDIT: Fixed for Kat!

Edited August 26, 2012 by Ibnzmonkey

[metrokat]

What! He said no DI?!

[Tenor]

CC and sand all have their positive and negative point. All depend how you are comfortable to use them in your tank especially if you go with fishes/ reef.

 

As for base rock. It will take awhile to get mature and color up (coralline) if you do it right. It's the best way to save money if you don't want to go with live rock.

[Ibnzmonkey]

What! He said no DI?!

 

Yea. Seriously. When he asked me about my water supply I said I am saving for a RO/DI system. He interrupted me and said "you mean RO right?" I replied "No, i meant RO/DI.". He laughed again and stated he had never used a DI unit in his 20 years in the hobby. I asked about his TDS out of just RO. "Zero every time".

 

Mindboggled...

[BLoCkCliMbeR]

When were you mocked?!

 

The store you went to is a retail establishment. His entire existence is based on a quick turn over of his livestock while keeping easy to maintain tanks and systems. By the same token our tanks should have little or no live rock, don't LFS have near bare tanks?

 

To each his own. I never tell a LFS owner what I read on a forum it never sits well.

 

im still shopping around for my new LFS i plan to frequent. when approached i do the smile and nod. i let them tell me what ever garbage they want, then i buy what i came there to get. im a big fan of research, so any info, even forum info is taken with a grain of salt. i def. dont argue with them, would hate to burn a bridge that would potentially get me some sort of hook up.

 

if his tanks look good, then what ever he is doing is working for him, so naturally he is defending his style.

 

if i had a mature system using typical NR methods, id go back with pics of my set up and compare and contrast with him....kinda like two dudes comparing hot rods.

 

dont let it discourage you from going to his shop. if he has quality goods/livestock at good prices, there isnt a reason not to go...unless he is in fact a "bag"

 

point is, you need to do your own leg work/research. you can get bad info anywhere.

 

ive seen stores with CC and UGF......

[mpg732]

I bet your LFS are a lot like theses forums, if you go to three different LFS they will all tell you something a bit different. This guy has been doing it for 20 years or so. I bet he is just set in his ways. Even though a lot has changed over the last 20 years. This doesn't mean he is wrong but he is just very opinionated. If your LFS is large I bet he has a good size work crew that spends a lot of time cleaning fish tanks. So he can't really compare sand to CC with in the store set up. If people are in there cleaning tanks day in and day out, of course they are going to look all nice and clean. My guess is that he isn't really against sand but is against deep sand beds. Over the past years it seems to be an on going debate on if those are good or bad. Or he just may not like the look of the sand.

[fretfreak13]

Read this whole thread and I see both sides of the argument, but if I were in your shoes I wouldn't go back there because he laughed in my face several times. Jerk. lol

 

More power to you though, especially for your patience level. I am not a people person haha

[Mitch619]

In my experience, I agree with him on the live rock. I used to like dry rock. A lot. But I realized that every time I would start a tank with dry rock, it would have algae problems in the future. Then I decided to buy some good quality liverock, and I saw an explosion of life in the tank. I had about 100 bristle worms that would clean my rock and sand every night.

 

For that reason, I will only start a reeftank with live rock now. If that guy has twenty years doing this, he's doing something right. He may be a little outdated on the modern reefkeeping, but his approach has been tested by time.

[mpg732]

In my experience, I agree with him on the live rock. I used to like dry rock. A lot. But I realized that every time I would start a tank with dry rock, it would have algae problems in the future. Then I decided to buy some good quality liverock, and I saw an explosion of life in the tank. I had about 100 bristle worms that would clean my rock and sand every night.

 

For that reason, I will only start a reeftank with live rock now. If that guy has twenty years doing this, he's doing something right. He may be a little outdated on the modern reefkeeping, but his approach has been tested by time.

I agree with you 100%. The only thing I am puzzled on is the no DI.

[Tenor]

I agree with you 100%. The only thing I am puzzled on is the no DI.

 

DI only use for the last few years and apply into the reef filtration system. If I remember it correctly I was used RO water filter system on my reef up to 2005.

 

Same as LFS here in my area they are using double DI in their system but no RO because they try to save to cost of water waste but no body complaint to their water.

[jason777]

A tightly compacted sand bed is a potential time bomb in an aquarium. Crushed coral allows oxygenated water to flow through it and prevent nutrient and even hydrogen sulfide to build up. People are so concerned about pests that they have forgotten that a sand bed doesn't work without the hundreds of genera of micro fauna found on live rock that stir the sand bed and feed on detritus.

[mpg732]

DI only use for the last few years and apply into the reef filtration system. If I remember it correctly I was used RO water filter system on my reef up to 2005.

 

Same as LFS here in my area they are using double DI in their system but no RO because they try to save to cost of water waste but no body complaint to their water.

The LFS no Di could also be the pure volume of water they may go through in a day.

[imadams]

The LFS owner is proabably just very set in his normal routine of doing things. He is both right and wrong. Using sand if at proper depths, and well cared for has no negative impact. Crushed coral does infact allow for less detritus build up if used in the right granulation. Basically if properly cared for either will suffice. Hes definitly wrong about the baserock. There arent thousands of people seeding baserock because it doesnt work ehh? Of course not! With patients, dilligance, and an applied dedication all sorts of off the wall stuff can be used to your advatage. For example, I was reading a post where some one cleared a bad case of hair algae with poroxide today...and it worked!

 

The important thing is to remember that no one does, and proabably never will know everything there is to know about reefing. The best thing you can do is apply what you know, take your time, and get advice from others to apply to your actions. Thats what NR is here for. One big happy helping family. Litteraly! People all went in on a plane ticket for a stranger the other day so he could make it to his fathers funeral without having to sell his setup.

 

Love it here

Edited August 27, 2012 by imadams

[henningero]

My "go to" LFS uses CC and tap water!! His tanks are usually spotless, although I did walk in on him with the toothbrush out scrubbing rocks. I also sometimes catch a little cyano here and there. I think in the LFS business, as with most retail business, presentation is everything. If you have the staff and/or time to clean the tanks every morning before you open you can pretty much tell the retards (us) that come in anything you want and they'll believe it!!