THE OFFICIAL ASK ALBERT THIEL THREAD

[albertthiel]

Does food to which Garlic has been added have beneficial effects such as :

 

- cure ich

- get fish to eat more

- deal with bacterial infections

- and more

 

Since more and more manufacturers seem to imply that it does below is a link to an article that gives you the details on what has been found so far ...

 

http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2005-10/sp/index.php

 

And, no, it has not been proven to be helpful in curing saltwater ich/crypto ... in lab experiments.

 

Albert

 

As far as the hot sauce method to help rid a tank of ich has been out for a while. The company used Capsaicin as one main ingredient. Albert maybe you can remember the name it came out years ago. I gotta find one of my old old old aquarium magazines to find an ad.

 

Yes after I shared the info with some hobbyists I think that someone came out with it but I cannot remember who it was but it may have been sold under a name that did not quite imply that it cured ich ...

 

Albert

 

As far as the hot sauce method to help rid a tank of ich has been out for a while. The company used Capsaicin as one main ingredient. Albert maybe you can remember the name it came out years ago. I gotta find one of my old old old aquarium magazines to find an ad.

 

It would have had to be 20 or so years ago ... if not more

 

Albert

Edited June 19, 2012 by albertthiel

[HecticDialectics]

Garlic... hot sauce.. people are absolute idiots. Thats a recipe for fried ####ing fish. Of course that dumb herbal hippie bs doesnt do crap to help ich.

 

You cure ick by picking fat healthy fish and feeding them healthy well rounded diets that keep them plump and healthym period.l

[albertthiel]

An link to an interesting listing of Clownfish and which Anemones they usually seem to prefer

 

http://saltaquarium.about.com/od/anemonecl...monematches.htm

 

Albert

[albertthiel]

An interesting article on GFO or granular ferric oxide for phosphate removal

 

http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2004-11/rhf/index.php

 

Albert

 

 

 

Aluminum oxide and Ferrous oxide ... to remove phosphates : Pro and Cons of both

 

A good article on the subject

 

http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2004/6/review

 

Albert

 

 

 

Garlic... hot sauce.. people are absolute idiots. Thats a recipe for fried ####ing fish. Of course that dumb herbal hippie bs doesnt do crap to help ich.

 

You cure ick by picking fat healthy fish and feeding them healthy well rounded diets that keep them plump and healthym period.l

 

Yes it is interesting sometimes to read what hobbyists try ... some methods work and others would be considered fads ... if you go back in time though there are instances where products being used were first described in the manner you posted and then sometimes years later they become the norm ... one good example perhaps is skimming with in the late 1960's was suggested and written off by many authors but look where skimming is today .... most hobbyists would not do without it ... Hobbyists try things and some stay around and become accepted after a period of time and others ... well they just seem to be abandoned after a while .... that's our hobby I guess ... sometimes there is a lot of trial and error but it is also the way in which new methods get discovered

 

Albert

[wombat]

It is amazing to me, that at this day and age, we are not sure of simple questions like "Does activated carbon remove Iodine ??? or iron??

 

Yeah, the pathways for both are unclear. What is known, is that iodine tends to vanish in closed systems, regardless of what kind of filtration you have on the tank. I've seen the measurements myself, on systems with and without GAC, skimmers, ozone, etc. If you aren't intentionally adding it, it's likely iodine concentration is far lower in most closed systems than in NSW.

[albertthiel]

Yeah, the pathways for both are unclear. What is known, is that iodine tends to vanish in closed systems, regardless of what kind of filtration you have on the tank. I've seen the measurements myself, on systems with and without GAC, skimmers, ozone, etc. If you aren't intentionally adding it, it's likely iodine concentration is far lower in most closed systems than in NSW.

 

You are absolutely right Wombat indeed iodine concentrations will diminish and get lower and lower in any aquarium, whether GAC or any other such absorbent is used, and since many lifeforms do require it, replenishing with a supplement makes a lot of sense to me and probably to you as well.

 

Randy Holmes-Farley wrote an interesting article about trace and other element supplementation

 

http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2007-04/rhf/index.php He does not seem personally in favor of it but since he deals with many additives including Strontium (remember TAT's KSM supplement which contained it) and other trace elements. This leads to part II but there is a link to part I

 

Here is one that I wrote many years ago http://www.athiel.com/tad/product/iodine2.htm and a more extensive one http://www.athiel.com/lib2/pguide/iodine.html written in the mid 90's

 

And one on using chelators on supplements and why http://www.athiel.com/lib/iodine1.html

 

This one deals with Iodine but also with Lugol's Solution and how to prepare it (exchange of info between Dr. Rivers and hobbyists) http://www.athiel.com/html/iodinerivers.html

 

I am sure I could add quite a few more but I think this gives those interested enough to read for now and should anyone have questions relating to it just make a post ...

 

Albert

Edited June 20, 2012 by albertthiel

[albertthiel]

ccapasso well here are my suggestions ... pick one of them and let me know ... and we'll continue the thread:

 

You do have a lot of questions ccapasso but I will do my best to respond to them and in as short a message as I can

 

Looking at all the pics you posted via the link I see a tank that has gone from what you describe as badly maintained to one that is now doing a lot better for sure and that for a 55 gallon looks good to me based on those pics. One observation is that you do have a lot of lifeforms in there but since it is a 55 that should be OK as long as you do not make the mistake of the previous owner : no or lack of maintenance.

 

Based on how the tank developed you have obviously done a lot of care taking and brought the tank back to life I would say.

 

Now to some of your questions :

 

The Sandbed … yes it may be loaded with impurities that affect the water quality, but cleaning it up is not that easy to do if the sand is left in the tank.

 

Suggestion: siphon out small parts of it with a siphon hose and replace the water that came out with high quality one that is of equal in params to what’s in the tank

Do this several times over the next week or two and you will have cleaned all the sand.

 

What you siphon out you stir up and then drain the top water and add more saltwater and stir again till it is clean, then add the sand back to the tank. I have done that in the past when helping hobbyists getting their tanks back in shape and that has worked fine for me. The key though is to make sure that whatever water you add back to the tank is of high quality e.g. RO/DI that you have added salt to and let stand for a while so it settles well (you prepare that in advance so it can stand overnight)

 

It will take a while to clean all the sand but if you do as above the sand will be clean although it may not be as live any more as it was of course but if you clean it with saltwater you should maintain some of the nitrification capabilities of the sand.

 

Doing water changes as you list (50%) is not needed if you follow the above as you will be adding water automatically to replace the one that came out of the tank as you siphoned the sand out. If you need more info on this let me know

 

Since you are not removing all the sand whatever lives in there now will be OK just don’t siphon the shrimp and whatever else lives in there out as well.

 

This is not a quick solution as you have probably figured out but it will slowly clean up the sand and improve the tank conditions as each time you add water you are adding clean saltwater that matches the params of the saltwater in the tank

 

As long as the water you add is real close to the params of what is in the tank you should not harm any corals or lifeforms but they are going to react to the changes in concentrations of nitrates and phosphates and whatever else you remove as you clean the sand so yes they are going to react but the reaction should not be severe and should not last for a long time.

 

There is of course another solution but that one is IMO more drastic : move all the animals to another tank, take the rock out and clean it, and then do a real thorough job on the aquarium and stir up the sand in the tank and keep siphoning out all the “crud” that ends up in the water and then replenish with saltwater, and keep doing that until when you sir very little dirt ends up in the water in the tank (this is a more drastic approach and of course assumes that you have another tank where you can put the animals.

 

I have also used a third method and that is to catch all the animals and make an arrangement with an LFS to put them in a holding tank for you till you are done with cleaning the tank you have … the LFS will not guarantee that all your animals will be OK when you pick them up but IME they usually are as the LFS’s tanks are usually in good water quality shape.

 

So you have three options …. think about them and let me know what you feel would work best for you …

 

By cleaning up the sand you will obviously lose some of the pod population but it is a matter of what is better … ending up with a clean sand bed and clean tank versus losing “some” of the bio life forms in the sand and maybe on the rocks depending on how heavily you have to treat them … doing such massive changes are you are contemplating will always have positive results, but unfortunately there will be some negative ones too.

 

After all you do you will need to keep a very close eye on all water quality parameters in the tank and make sure that you correct anything that is not in line with where it should be … wish I was closer to you as I would come and help you .. but I am in GA …

 

Of course as you mention: yes clean the glass and anything else that seems to be needing it

 

I would not get new substrate as even with all the siphoning out of the sand and rinsing it in saltwater you will not kill off all of the lifeforms so I think you can save yourself the money of buying new live sand

 

Why do you want to use black sand (non live) if you have sand already that has been in that tank for some time .. I think that if you use one of the methods above your current sand will still be live to some degree albeit not as live as it was before you started siphoning it out. Nitrifying bacteria can take quite a bit of abuse if I can call it that way and not be lost as you think you will by making a number of radical changes to the tank.

 

Last suggestion : decide on a plan and let me know what it is and we can continue this conversation …

 

Albert

 

 

Looking for some advice on replacing the entire sand bed of my 55g:

http://www.nano-reef.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=290364

 

This is currently posted in my 55g thread, but I am re-posting here as requested.

 

Reasons for wanting to replace it:

 

• I believe the previous owner of this tank did not ever clean the sand bed. I've tried to clean it as much as possible.
  
• I feel the sand bed has become a nitrate factory and needs to be replaced.
  
• I do 50% water changes and the nitrates keep coming back to 20+
  
• It is nasty looking
  

 

Concerns:

 

• Not sure I can replace a little bit at a time. If it is a nitrate factory, sucking up a little at a time will cause massive spikes.
  
• Do not want to cause harm to livestock.
  
• Do not want to cause harm to corals.
  
• There is a pistol shrimp and watchman Goby living under the sand bed.
  
• Do not want to destroy Pod population with 90% water change.
  

 

Thoughts/Ideas/Plan of Attack:

 

• Drain water as if doing a 50% water change - Discard this water
  
• Remove all live rock and corals and place in buckets/tubs (no power heads likely)
  
• Catch livestock and place in buckets/tubs
  
• Drain more water while removing substrate at the same time
  
• Remove remaining substrate
  
• Clean Glass and remove buildup
  
• Place new substrate
  
• Fill halfway with new water
  
• Place live rock and corals back in
  
• Fill up with water
  
• Place livestock back in
  
• Cross fingers
  

 

Unknowns/Questions/Etc:

• How much water should I replace?
  
• I want to use black sand. Do they make non-live black sand?
  
• Does the plan make sense?
  
• What changes/suggestions/etc would you recommend?
  

 

Any help would be greatly appreciated.

[ccapasso]

Hi Albert,

 

Thank you very much for your reply.

 

I was thinking of replacing the sand with black sand just to give the tank a new/clean look.

 

However, that isn't necessary. I was only going to do this if I did indeed need to replace the sand bed as a whole.

 

 

As far as the cleaning process, here are my thoughts:

 

Option 3 of transporting livestock to a LFS will likely not be an option. There are about 2 that I trust and both are more than 20 minutes away.

 

Option 2 of putting the livestock in another tank would also not work . I do not have another tank large enough to do this.

 

Option 3 of siphoning the sand bed may work. My concern is that doing this will cause more harm than good. I am concerned that by siphoning the sand I will as a direct result stir up any bad nitrate causing debris as well. Doing this with the livestock in the tank is what concerns me.

 

What if I did a combo of #2 and #3?

 

1. Move livestock to holding containers/tubs
   
2. Remove all of the sand via siphon/hand and clean it
   
3. Put cleaned sand back in
   
4. Replace removed water with new clean water
   
5. Put livestock back in
   

[NanoTopia]

I am sure that you understand that this is not an easy question to answer but I remember reading an article not too long ago that increased acidification of our Oceans reduces nitrification ... which is somewhat the opposite of what you postulate.

 

I have made a note to do some research on this but here is an article that you may wish to read ... it's pretty sic oriented but does give you some answers.

 

http://www.pnas.org/content/108/1/208.full.pdf

 

I went through a number of the books I own e..g Huckstedt's Aquarienchemie and a few more specialized ones by Carr, Whitton, Lee and others, but have not been able to validate your statement above.

 

I will check some more though and see what I can come up with.

 

Albert

 

Thank you for the article Albert. It suggests that pH, specifically lowered pH, has a profound negative effect on the nitrification process. Scientific studies are often done on real world scenarios such as the acidification of our oceans. I realize it may be hard to zone in on any kind of study done on what I hypothesize since it is not likely to ever occur in nature.

 

I have seen organisms, ie.coral growth, stall at both increased and decreased alkalinity, suggesting that most organisms have a preferred zone in which they function best. When the chemistry in water is dramatically out of NSW range, I would think metabolism/reproduction rates of organisms may also be affected to some degree. Bacteria may be more tolerant of changes in it's environment but as the study concludes, even a small decrease in ocean pH had a measurable effect on nitrifying bacteria. I would like to see a study done on the effects of increased pH (>8.5) and or Alkalinity levels (>12 dKH) on nitrifying/denitrifying bacteria. Thanks again Albert.

 

Christine

[albertthiel]

Hi Albert,

 

Thank you very much for your reply.

 

I was thinking of replacing the sand with black sand just to give the tank a new/clean look.

 

However, that isn't necessary. I was only going to do this if I did indeed need to replace the sand bed as a whole.

 

 

As far as the cleaning process, here are my thoughts:

 

Option 3 of transporting livestock to a LFS will likely not be an option. There are about 2 that I trust and both are more than 20 minutes away.

 

Option 2 of putting the livestock in another tank would also not work . I do not have another tank large enough to do this.

 

Option 3 of siphoning the sand bed may work. My concern is that doing this will cause more harm than good. I am concerned that by siphoning the sand I will as a direct result stir up any bad nitrate causing debris as well. Doing this with the livestock in the tank is what concerns me.

 

What if I did a combo of #2 and #3?

 

1. Move livestock to holding containers/tubs
   
2. Remove all of the sand via siphon/hand and clean it
   
3. Put cleaned sand back in
   
4. Replace removed water with new clean water
   
5. Put livestock back in
   

 

Since that seems to be your only option then I would go with it being careful with how you handle each of the steps but I think that will work for you. Just make sure that whatever water you change is of same params as water in the tank for temp, pH and s.g ... and prepare that water in advance so you can let it sit overnight and aerate it well

 

Keep us posted

 

Albert

 

Thank you for the article Albert. It suggests that pH, specifically lowered pH, has a profound negative effect on the nitrification process. Scientific studies are often done on real world scenarios such as the acidification of our oceans. I realize it may be hard to zone in on any kind of study done on what I hypothesize since it is not likely to ever occur in nature.

 

I have seen organisms, ie.coral growth, stall at both increased and decreased alkalinity, suggesting that most organisms have a preferred zone in which they function best. When the chemistry in water is dramatically out of NSW range, I would think metabolism/reproduction rates of organisms may also be affected to some degree. Bacteria may be more tolerant of changes in it's environment but as the study concludes, even a small decrease in ocean pH had a measurable effect on nitrifying bacteria. I would like to see a study done on the effects of increased pH (>8.5) and or Alkalinity levels (>12 dKH) on nitrifying/denitrifying bacteria. Thanks again Albert.

 

Christine

 

Thanks for the response and I guess what you stated and what the article concluded are indeed that acidification has a negative effect on nitrification ...

 

Not sure whether I can find anything on the opposite that you request but I will look for it and if I find anything that I think applies or makes a point we should all be aware of I will post a link to it.

 

Just a question ... are you a hobbyist, a biologist or do you work in a lab or in some type of scientific environment ? Just curious.

 

Albert

[albertthiel]

Somewhere I read that Zeph likes Moorish Idols ... I do too in FOWLR tanks and have always found in the days I kept them many years ago that they were difficult due to their very specific feeding habits.

 

They are also the only species in that Genus Zanclidae ... odd ... of course there is the False one too the I am sure many of your have seen as well ...

 

 

 

 

Zeph ... your take on Moorish Idols Zanclus cornutus

 

Albert

[NanoTopia]

Just a question ... are you a hobbyist, a biologist or do you work in a lab or in some type of scientific environment ? Just curious.

 

Albert

 

Hobbyist foremost but I do work in the medical field as a nurse. My love for the ocean and biology started in 1979 when I took my first scuba dive in Oahu HI. I did do some volunteer diving work for the Vancouver Aquarium a while back, data collection and educational shows UW. Thanks for asking Albert.

 

Me in my glory days. LOL

[ZephNYC]

 

Zeph ... your take on Moorish Idols Zanclus cornutus

 

Albert

 

 

I love fish that are notoriously difficult to keep, Moorish Idols are very high on that list. Very few people have had success in keeping captive moorish idols in anything less then a public aquarium type setup. Massive tanks with large amounts of food filled live rock are what you need to get this guy started, but when that runs out 99% of them will starve. However, the same mind set has passed with the marketing of new foods like prawn eggs, uva, oyster eggs..etc...and we can now keep a few things once considered impossible by the experts. Example: Orange spot filefish - said only to feed on acropora polyps, can OFTEN be maintained with Prawn eggs ( Nutramar/Ova). I have had a mated pair for serveral years now. Many pipefish too..blue stripes..etc.. Manderins..are far easier to keep these days. I have read about authors having success in keeping Idols by packing old coral skeletons with mysis and ova, and oyster eggs with positive results. Idols can pick on them in their natural feeding behavior as they almost never eat from the water column. Tricks and new product will continue to advance our beloved hobby. We need some young Alberts to hit the scene and give us some new toys.

[albertthiel]

 

Zeph ... your take on Moorish Idols Zanclus cornutus

 

Albert

 

 

 

I love fish that are notoriously difficult to keep, Moorish Idols are very high on that list. Very few people have had success in keeping captive moorish idols in anything less then a public aquarium type setup. Massive tanks with large amounts of food filled live rock are what you need to get this guy started, but when that runs out 99% of them will starve. However, the same mind set has passed with the marketing of new foods like prawn eggs, uva, oyster eggs..etc...and we can now keep a few things once considered impossible by the experts. Example: Orange spot filefish - said only to feed on acropora polyps, can OFTEN be maintained with Prawn eggs ( Nutramar/Ova). I have had a mated pair for serveral years now. Many pipefish too..blue stripes..etc.. Manderins..are far easier to keep these days. I have read about authors having success in keeping Idols by packing old coral skeletons with mysis and ova, and oyster eggs with positive results. Idols can pick on them in their natural feeding behavior as they almost never eat from the water column. Tricks and new product will continue to advance our beloved hobby. We need some young Alberts to hit the scene and give us some new toys.

 

Yes I was aware of that Zeph :0 ... so I was kind of teasing you here ... and I agree with what you posted. It has become easier to keep certain fish that in the past we had no success whatsoever with as newer foods more geared towards those fish have come on the market. Indeed so ...

 

Where it comes to Moorish Idols though I was talking to a marine biologist at the Atlanta Giant Aquarium and he is still of the belief that unless you are willing to sacrifice what they normally feed on in nature and replenish your tank with that, that the success rate is still about zero. he does agree though that in large public aquariums things are a little different due to size and due to what grown in those huge systems.

 

Those who have had success for say about a year or so was mainly due to the fact that the fish were kept in large aquariums (500 gals + ) and the copious amount of algae, sponge growth and various miniature crustaceans that flourished in the saltwater aquarium gave the Moorish idols something to eat with similar nutritional properties to what they would feed upon in nature.

 

Personally when I kept them I used to have 3 in a 400 gallon tank, and get sponges from the Mystic Aquarium in CT from a friend who worked there, as that appears to be one of their needed foods, but unfortunately even though they did well for months on end, eventually their bellies would sink in and they would refuse to eat, become very listless in the water, seem to have lost their balance and bumping into rocks etc ... pitiful to watch.

 

It was obvious that they were not going to make it and they did not.

 

I would still not recommend them to anyone even though they are such nicely colored and majestic looking fish.

 

Just wanted to add my experience with them to what you had to say ...

 

BTW how about some of the Tangs ... IMO same issue ...

 

Albert

[albertthiel]

Hobbyist foremost but I do work in the medical field as a nurse. My love for the ocean and biology started in 1979 when I took my first scuba dive in Oahu HI. I did do some volunteer diving work for the Vancouver Aquarium a while back, data collection and educational shows UW. Thanks for asking Albert.

 

Me in my glory days. LOL

 

Thanks for the update and I can now understand your interest in more esoteric (if I can call it that) topics that are not that often discussed on the forum but that I think fit in this section/thread real well since I am heavy into research and love to widen my knowledge about subjects that we still do not know all that much about.

 

Nice pic

 

Albert

[gena]

Pictures of some interesting Leather Corals :

 

Yellow Fiji Leather

 

Yellow Leather

 

Alcyonidae sp. Leather

 

Cabbage Leather

 

Devil's Hand Leather

 

Very Large Leather - Notice the size of the fish relative to the Leather and the fact that the Clown is inside the Leather (and not even alone )

 

Umbrella Leather

 

Fiji Yellow

 

Usually Leather corals are easy to maintain and can grow to very large sizes

 

Albert

I'm bumping all those pictures because they are gorgeous! I'm planning a few types of leather in my new tank: yellow fiji, cabbage leather, toadstool. I may squeeze finger in there as well. I've always been a huge fan of the leather corals. Thanks for posting these pictures

[ZephNYC]

Heres mine! I grew this tripple header from buds off a mother colony about 3 years ago.

[albertthiel]

Below are some pics of several types of Pavona type corals

 

Pavona maldivensis

 

 

Pavona maldivensis Leaf type

 

 

Pavona maldivensis Neon Green

 

 

Pavona frag

 

 

Albert

Edited June 20, 2012 by albertthiel

[gena]

Nice, ZephNYC! I used to have a big one like that, a few years ago. My clowns lived in it. That's exactly what I'm planning for my new tank

[albertthiel]

I'm bumping all those pictures because they are gorgeous! I'm planning a few types of leather in my new tank: yellow fiji, cabbage leather, toadstool. I may squeeze finger in there as well. I've always been a huge fan of the leather corals. Thanks for posting these pictures

 

Gena ... you are most welcome ... if you want more pics let me know and I'll try to dig up some more unusual looking ones

 

Albert

[ZephNYC]

I just wanted to show Albert and everyone else anther shot of my pride and joy.

This MASSIVE pink goniopora touches bothe sides in a 125. I had to block the light to get a picture because the glare was too much.

[albertthiel]

Heres mine! I grew this tripple header from buds off a mother colony about 3 years ago.

 

And for those who are not aware of it you can cut pieces off an existing one and grow them in your tanks just like you do with SPS's

 

Albert

[gena]

Gena ... you are most welcome ... if you want more pics let me know and I'll try to dig up some more unusual looking ones

 

Albert

You seem to be quite busy, but if you have a chance, I'd love to see more..especially the unusual looking

[albertthiel]

I just wanted to show Albert and everyone else anther shot of my pride and joy.

This MASSIVE pink goniopora touches bothe sides in a 125. I had to block the light to get a picture because the glare was too much.

 

Gorgeous ... and wow what a size indeed

 

Have you seen this one Goniopora stutchburyi

 

 

A very rare one as far as I know

 

Albert

 

 

You seem to be quite busy, but if you have a chance, I'd love to see more..especially the unusual looking

 

Gena : I will look for some and post them here on my thread ....

 

Albert

[albertthiel]

I just wanted to show Albert and everyone else anther shot of my pride and joy.

This MASSIVE pink goniopora touches bothe sides in a 125. I had to block the light to get a picture because the glare was too much.

 

What would you estimate the dimensions to be Zeph .. this is a monster (well in a nice way)

 

How long have you had this huge Gonio ?