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Really messed up and confused....


Royal Gramma

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Royal Gramma

??? ???I am confused beyond belief! I want to start a salt tank, fish only, but then I was told that I should get live rock, I guess that makes it a reef, so I came here. I do not want a reef, too expensive, but I suppose a bit of live rock wouldn't hurt...

I have picked out a 25 gallon and am hopfully going to pick it up saturday. :D I have picked out several damsel and want to go from there, so far my list looks like this:

1 Royal Gramma

1 Three Striped Humbug

1 Common Clownfish

1 Candy Cane shrimp

According to thid book I read, I still have room for two more damsels, any ideas? I would also like too know any extra equipment that I will need. I will get a skimmer, but I cannot afford that now. I know I need a hydrometer, but what kind?!?!????

Thank you for you patience.

Your newest member,

Carrie, aka Royal Gramma

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drop the damsels all together. they are aggressive and will limit your fish choices. i say go with the clownfish, royal gramma, and maybe 2-3 green chromises. the shrimp is good too. you may also want to add some snails to help with algae. as far as equipment, hydrometer, heater, good test kits, and all the normal stuff. you will also want a filter of some sort and a power head for water movement. welcome to nano-reef.com:)

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for a fish only you'd really only need a wet/dry filter like a marineland or the new tetratec. the tank could theoretically be empty. 25g might be a little tight for the two additional monsters you want to put in with your current list.

 

anything you add live rock or sand just adds surface area to aid beneficial bacteria (that processes waste) an anchor point. the LR & LS isn't bad as they will address your nitrates being produced later but they're not necessary imo (for a FO).

 

btw, you don't have to even get Live rock or sand. buy the 'dead' rock & sand and you can seed the system with a tiny piece of quality LR or LS. (beg buy borrow) good luck!

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printerdown01

Perhaps this will help you in your search for what you are trying to create... A "fish only" tank with live rock is called a FOWLR (pronounced foul-er). There are several people on this board who have either owned or currently own this type of set-up... Thus, many people around here will be able to help you out (unfortunaly my experiance with these is limited).

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Read, read, read some more. Fish only with live rock (FOWLR) is a great way to get started. Your tank is still going to have to cycle before you add any of those fish. Read and learn about the cycling process. Live rock is so interesting I can't imagine having a saltwater tank without it. It can be expensive depending on where you live but it is worth it!

 

You will probably end up wanting corals. About the only differece between a FOWLR and a reef is the lighting.

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Royal Gramma

Yippee!! Okay, given my 10 years of FW, I do know what the cycle is. This is my gameplan:

 

-Set up tank, let run overnight

-Next day get 5 lb of live rock and a common clown

-Let cycle

-Slowly add the fish, each time I get a fish, I add 5 more pounds LR

-As budget allows update tank, ir get Ugf with powheads, protein skim,

How does it sound?

Carrie

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BustytheSnowMaam

Hi,

 

I hate to say this, but no. You should add about 40 lbs of live rock to the tank first, then add fish. If you keep successively adding more rock, each new rock addition needs to cycle, and this will stress out tank inhabitants. If you can't afford the LR, then if I were you I'd get a smaller tank that uses less LR. If you go down to a 15 gallon you would maybe only need half as much

LR. You could have 2-3 fish as well as the shrimp. If you haven't picked up the tank yet you can still back out.

 

You should have at least 2 good powerheads (you need water movement to give oxygen to the tank) and the LR cycled (minimum 2-3 weeks) and in place before you add the fish.

 

After that is in place, add snails and hermits. After they've been scooting around awhile, add one fish at a time.

 

I should add that if you don't overstock your tank, you probably can get away with no skimmer if you don't overfeed and do regular water changes.

 

This hobby is difficult to do properly if you don't have the funds. My 10 has probably cost over $500 and I'm a cheapskate. I added everything very gradually and kept it small because I didn't have much extra $.

 

Hope this helps-

Tasha

 

PS. I use a SeaTest swingarm hydrometer. I think swing-arm hydrometers are much easier to read.

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As tashayar said all the live rock has to go in before the fish. Live rock will have what's called die off (small critters and algae) and this will cause the cycle to start off. You can't hurry this process or you will have dead fish. The live rock is so much fun anyway! It's full of live creatures that will fascinate you for days while the cycle goes on.

 

I did a quick search and came up with this to explain the whole process. Read it and ask any questions you have. I didn't take the time to go through it line bey line ....dinner is ready!

 

http://www.y2kanu.com/htm/coral_fish/saltw...water_setup.htm

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Royal Gramma

Alright.... I had no clue that it would be this complicated. According to the several books I read, I would be okay with a good filrtation system, and a skimmer maybe. Please remeber that we are dealing with clowns and damsels.... I was wondering, what if I kept it to just clowns, you know, like 5 clowns and a shrimp, clowns are my fav and I would just lovvvve to have a tank with just them. In fact, I would be willing to omit the shrimp and have an anenome once the tank is cycled.

I can get all that stuff, it will just take time. I just looked in ebay and skimmers are pretty affordable, I could probably do one of those pretty soon. As for the wet dry, I think not. It would take me about two years to truelly be able to afford one of those....:|

As for as the live rock goes, I think 25lbs is my financial limit. However, I could probably also do live sand, would a mix of LR and LS work? I was under the impression that clowns were one of the hardiest marine species commonly available....

I also read about a good mix for a tank this size, 4 clowns and a royal gramma.

As far as aereration goes, gotchya covered. I have about three airpumps, that means three extra airstones.

Thank you all for your quick and kind responses,

Carrie

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BustytheSnowMaam

Hi,

 

It's really not that complicated. If you can afford 25 lbs of LR, I would use that over the skimmer. Skimmers remove a lot of trace elements from the water. You don't need to buy live sand, the live rock will seed the sand.

 

This is what I would do:

 

1. Set up your tank, fill it with regular water to make sure all the seals are good. Drain out the regular water.

 

2. Pour your aragonite in (about 1 1/2 inches).

 

3. Add your live rock. If you can afford 25 lbs now, get that. It should get you by.

 

4. Add your saltwater. Be sure to use RO water and not tap water.

 

5. Let it cycle for about 2 or 3 weeks. Don't use air pumps and airstones, use powerheads at the surface of the water. The airstones will make bubbles that pop and will cause salt creep all over the hood of your tank (I did this as a child and it was not pretty, plus it will ruin your hood). If you can afford more LR at this time, add 10 or 15 lbs more and let it cycle 2 weeks more. If not, you can probably get away with 1 lb of LR per gallon, provided that you don't overstock the tank. During the time your tank is cycling, as Lizbeth said, you will see all kinds of critters in your LR, so it won't be like totally boring. Shine a flashlight in at night (actually what you see could give you nightmares- there are so many creepy-crawlies! just kidding).

 

6. Add 1 fish (unless you're getting a pair of clowns, then you obviously could add them together) at a time. You cannot put 5 clowns together in one tank, you can when they're juveniles but as they grow up they will terrorize each other. You should not put in more than 2. If you get a pair, get a tank-raised pair of juveniles that have not changed sex yet. They will be small and about the same color. Tank-raised clowns will not have wild-imported parasites and they are far less skittish. With whatever fish you put in, put the most peaceful fish in first.

 

You cannot get an anemone unless you have very strong lighting. It will live for 2-3 months but then will shrivel up to nothing. In the wild, anemones live for hundreds of years. In a tank, maybe 1 in a 100 live for 5. To me, this says that anemones aren't intended for fish tanks, and you are only contributing to the destruction of the reef when you buy one. Ok, that's my soapbox for the day. If you want a host for your clowns, then look into alternate hosts like some species of soft corals, which are hardy and easy to grow.

 

I should add too that you will want lots of snails and hermits (ie., a "cleanup crew" ) for algae control.

 

If you have that Tullock book Your First Marine Aquarium, disregard what it says as far as stocking your tank. It is completely wrong.

 

When you buy the royal gramma, reserve it at the pet store, wait a couple of weeks, if it is still alive and healthy then pick it up. The reason is that unfortunately most of them are caught using anesthetics which obviously stress them and many die en route or soon after.

 

I can't think of anything else right now. Just take it slow.

Tasha

 

Clowns and damsels are hardy, but not THAT hardy. If you follow what I'm saying, you will have a tank you are proud of with lots of neat critters scooting around it.

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ok..Carrie, i belive you are just like me as we both have 15+ years with FW and wanting to get into SW/reef but still mentality tot reat like a FW tank. Here is a few days that you may be able to cut from your time..follow the steps..you will have your tank fully stocked within 2 weeks:

 

Day 1- buy 35lbs of Aragonite LS (~$35) put it in your tank and fill it up with NSW (natural salt water) you can buy at your LFS about 18-20 gallons is enough (~$7). Have 2 Powerheads running in your tank..($15 x 2)

cost for day one: $72

 

Day 2- Add 25-35 lbs of LR ($50-75) a good way is to look in your local recycler for peopel that is tearing down their tank and buy their LR for ~$1/lb

and continue to let the water run

cost for day two: $50-$75

 

Day3-5 - sit back and relax, stare at your exisiting LR, as you will find so many wonderful things..and you can deside on reef or FO tank

 

Day 6- Bring a small amount of your tank water to your LFS for testing...as long as all the levels are low..*doesn't have to be 0 across the board..buy 10 hermits and 10 snails (~$25)

cost for day 6- $25

 

Day 7 - If all your hermits and snails survives...start adding fish...if you are going with numerous clowns, you BETTER put them all in at the same time, as they willl fight ..so be careful...some fish are very terristorial..and you only have a 25 gallon tank...

 

Then watch your fish..if they survive and doing well...then slowly stock up your tank...but if you are putting more than 1 of the same species fish..i would add them both in at the same time...

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Originally posted by Royal Gramma

what if I kept it to just clowns, you know, like 5 clowns and a shrimp, clowns are my fav and I would just lovvvve to have a tank with just them. In fact, I would be willing to omit the shrimp and have an anenome once the tank is cycled.

 

Five clowns would be a little unusual, and isn't really generally recommended. Most people just get one or two. A second clown of the same species can be added later, as long as it is visibly smaller than the first. There will be some scrapping among them as the larger one establishes dominance and becomes the female. And do NOT get clownfish of different species; they will fight.

 

You should also get a cleaner shrimp. Skip the anemone. Tank-raised clownfish have often never seen an anemone, and they will do just fine without one. If you want to see some of the clownfish/host interaction, clownfish have been known to 'host' with many different types of corals, plus such things as powerheads, heaters, an area of bubbles from a bubble wall, or even at the surface at a particular corner of the tank.

 

Yet another reason to avoid anemones: there seems to be a fad of *dyeing* anemones to make them more appealing. And the dyeing process weakens the anemone -- you might even say it starts the anemone's die-ing process! And when you're just getting started in sw, or even if you're a pro at sw and don't know all that much about anemones, it's not always easy to tell if an anemone has been dyed.

 

For getting live rock, you might want to check with some of the online suppliers and see if they can ship to Canada. Try www.gulf-view.com, www.tampabaysaltwater.com, www.harboraquatics.com, and www.waltsmith.com. I live in the Chicago area and find that the stuff at the LFS is often completely void of coralline algae and two or even three times the cost of the good stuff available online.

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Royal Gramma

Um dave, exactly where did that come from? Please, if you are gonna post, post on-topic. It gets quite annoying when I ask a valid question and I get the answer you gave me. Is this also because I am a confessed newbie? I should hope not.

Carrie

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dave, did you drink any of that 'stank water' from that client in vermont? i was wondering the same thing. ???

 

you'll have to excuse dave, he's currently, literally, trying to save an entire reef that went belly up in vermont of all places. stress affects people (evil dave vs. less evil dave) :P

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If you checked out the post Royal Gramma made in Daves abbreviations thread, you'll understand the reason behind Dave's post. And Carrie, none of this has anything with you being a newbie, it has to do with the attitude and manner in which you posted in the previous thread.

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yeah sucks when some one messes up your thread huh........

 

FWIW Stay out of my threads, and ill do the same for U.

 

"I hope You learn your lessons well, and U live to tell.....

The Secrets I have learned as well..... It will burn inside of me......"

Courtsy; Madonna.

 

That is all from the desk of Espi..

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pardon me dave, i didn't read the other thread when i posted so I was out of context and line. i WAS going to check it (really!) 'cause i saw all the posts ??? which seemed out of place since i figured it was really just a reference thread for everyone's benefit. (did we ever say thank you?)

 

actions justified? well, let's just call everyone even and start again. 'do over!'

 

(but dave, i must compliment you on the amount of restraint you showed during that thread though! bravo!) go! lesser evil dave! :P

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