Frequency of Water Changes

[kgoldy]

Sorry, haven't seen this thread in a while... Hopefully these replies are still relevant.

 

I nixed the frag area in my sump and want to instead use it as a refugium.

 

I'm shooting for at least a 30 gallon area packed with Chaeto/Green Ulva/Red Gracilaria, all macros I already have.

 

Chaeto, various caulerpa species, and gracillaria work great for me. Ulva, not so much. Ulva seems to need higher flow than the typical refugium. But if you're growing it already, you should be alright.

 

 

I also want mangroves because I've always been intrigued by them despite the fact they don't actually do too much filtering due to their slow growth rate, correct?

 

I have about 30 of them... I think they're more aesthetic than anything. My main display has three trees growing in it with nice looking roots that grow in and out of the LR. Though, they do pull nutrients out of a DSB if you have one. Check my HOB fuge thread to see what I'm talking about.

 

Hopefully I can do a similar 10% water change every few months and still maintain a healthy system.

 

Bigger buckets are also a lot heavier/harder to carry. Any suggestions on how to make this task easier?

 

There are small Rubbermaid garbage cans, like mini versions of the big commercial ones you're used to seeing in this hobby... They fit casters that are designed for the cans. So you can roll 15-25 gallon cans around quite easily.

 

Also, I'm planning on dosing Kalk if the water parameters get out of sorts.

 

How does dosing the Kalk in your ATO work for you?

 

I want to dose separately via peristlatic pump if my budget allows, but dosing via ATO sounds easier/inexpensive.

 

I'm mainly concerned about the safety of dosing via ATO (i.e. PH spikes, etc)

 

I dose kalk to bring the pH up. The heavier bio-load you have, the more waste and CO2 are produced in your system. Both of these things lower the pH.

 

It's a balancing act. I highly recommend a ReefKeeper Elite or similar system that can monitor your pH for you. These things can send you an email if you get a sudden pH spike. If you notice pH getting too high, add vinegar to your system until it gets lower. This doesn't happen to me often, but it does occasionally... I've never had losses because of it.

 

I would try to avoid dosing ANYTHING for at least the first 6-8 months while your system is still settling in.

 

I dose kalk by just saturating my ATO water with as much kalk as it will absorb. 1 tablespoon per gallon of water.

 

I haven't yet needed to dose magnesium or anything else... To be honest, I'm not sure why. Maybe I'm just lucky. Though, I do have all test kits and supplements on standby for when necessary.

 

I wouldn't expect you to need a fancy dosing system (like a Bubble Magus 3 part doser) unless you're going heavy SPS with very large colonies right off the bat. This is the type of equipment you should plan for (as in, have room for) but not purchase until it's obviously necessary to bring your reef to the next level.

 

I'm hoping to filter my tank mostly via a refugium.

 

Yeah, you can do it.

 

 

P.S. As far as my sump design goes where's the best place to put my refugium?

 

I was thinking SKIMMER ||| Refugium | Return

 

| denotes Baffle.

 

Sounds like the pretty typical sump to me. Though- one thing- with all the advice I've been giving you- it's for a skimmerless system. Water changes will be necessary to maintain nutrient levels when running a skimmer, since it'll strip the water of the good stuff with the bad.

[Wizzy]

At 200g you shouldnt have to do any water changes and wouldnt need a fuge unless you wanted it. Ive heard around the 90g mark you can get your tank to go water changeless as long as you use a supplement like b-ionic.

 

I think I still need a fuge for nutrient export.

 

I should be able to maintain my parameters via dosing though.

 

 

I have personally found that everything in my tank positively responds to, and looks better with frequent partial water changes. Just remember, everything that eats, poops.

 

I agree water changes are the way to go if you have the time.

 

I unfortunately, am quite busy

 

YouTube " new York steelo " his videos of his 90 gallon are 1 year and no water changes,, check his channel out

 

I checked him out and liked what I saw.

 

So you know for a fact that he hasn't done any water changes for a year?

 

 

Sorry, haven't seen this thread in a while... Hopefully these replies are still relevant.

 

 

 

Chaeto, various caulerpa species, and gracillaria work great for me. Ulva, not so much. Ulva seems to need higher flow than the typical refugium. But if you're growing it already, you should be alright.

 

 

 

 

I have about 30 of them... I think they're more aesthetic than anything. My main display has three trees growing in it with nice looking roots that grow in and out of the LR. Though, they do pull nutrients out of a DSB if you have one. Check my HOB fuge thread to see what I'm talking about.

 

 

 

There are small Rubbermaid garbage cans, like mini versions of the big commercial ones you're used to seeing in this hobby... They fit casters that are designed for the cans. So you can roll 15-25 gallon cans around quite easily.

 

 

 

I dose kalk to bring the pH up. The heavier bio-load you have, the more waste and CO2 are produced in your system. Both of these things lower the pH.

 

It's a balancing act. I highly recommend a ReefKeeper Elite or similar system that can monitor your pH for you. These things can send you an email if you get a sudden pH spike. If you notice pH getting too high, add vinegar to your system until it gets lower. This doesn't happen to me often, but it does occasionally... I've never had losses because of it.

 

I would try to avoid dosing ANYTHING for at least the first 6-8 months while your system is still settling in.

 

I dose kalk by just saturating my ATO water with as much kalk as it will absorb. 1 tablespoon per gallon of water.

 

I haven't yet needed to dose magnesium or anything else... To be honest, I'm not sure why. Maybe I'm just lucky. Though, I do have all test kits and supplements on standby for when necessary.

 

I wouldn't expect you to need a fancy dosing system (like a Bubble Magus 3 part doser) unless you're going heavy SPS with very large colonies right off the bat. This is the type of equipment you should plan for (as in, have room for) but not purchase until it's obviously necessary to bring your reef to the next level.

 

 

 

Yeah, you can do it.

 

 

 

 

Sounds like the pretty typical sump to me. Though- one thing- with all the advice I've been giving you- it's for a skimmerless system. Water changes will be necessary to maintain nutrient levels when running a skimmer, since it'll strip the water of the good stuff with the bad.

 

Great Info! Thanks!

 

Believe it or not I am growing Ulva/Chaeto/Red Gracilaria/Red Grape all in a 2 gallon tank with a cheap in-tank filter and I only do a water change every couple months.

 

I think that using a couple rubbermaid cans on wheels is a great idea.

 

I want a Controller, but don't know if my budget will allow it.

 

The last part about not running a skimmer surprised me the most-

 

So you feel that not having a skimmer is beneficial to a system with limited water changes?

 

 

Thanks Everyone- Wizzy

[TinyGiant]

here is my setup and ritual

 

55g 30-3w GU10 Bulbs

Koralia 3

Koralia 750

Prism SKimmer

 

I feed one cube of cyclops every day

a small pinch of sera granumarin (to get some to the bottom for the stars)

 

I top off about 3-5 gallons a week. once a month I will add 3-4 scoops of tropic marine biocalcium to my 5gallon RODI water bucket.

 

So basically I add calcium about 1 a month.

[mikellini]

A skimmer doesn't strip the water of anything except dissolved organics. It does remove a bit of water, which contains some things, but the only concentrate in skimmate is DOCs

[londonloco]

So....I still haven't seen anyone post pics of setups with little to no wc's. "Proof is in the pudding" sort of thing......

[JamesHL88]

A guy just joined my local club with a 5 year old 90 gallon display with 90 gallon fuge. He says he quit doing water changes over a year and a half ago. But his fuge is amazing. It is full of rocks a dsb macros and tangs lol. Thats right tangs in his fuge. I cant even have a tang in my display

[Wizzy]

A skimmer doesn't strip the water of anything except dissolved organics. It does remove a bit of water, which contains some things, but the only concentrate in skimmate is DOCs

 

What is DOCs?

 

So....I still haven't seen anyone post pics of setups with little to no wc's. "Proof is in the pudding" sort of thing......

 

Pictures would be good

 

 

A guy just joined my local club with a 5 year old 90 gallon display with 90 gallon fuge. He says he quit doing water changes over a year and a half ago. But his fuge is amazing. It is full of rocks a dsb macros and tangs lol. Thats right tangs in his fuge. I cant even have a tang in my display

 

 

Do you know any of the specs of his system?

 

Skimmer, etc?

 

Pictures?

 

Thanks- Wizzy

[mikellini]

DOC= dissolved organic compound

[john&steph]

I have been in the no water change club before but went back to doing 10-20% every two weeks on my 210 with a 40 fuge and 40 sump. My tank looks just comes to life when I keep up on them. I am busy as can be too but it makes me maybe an hour tops to change the water, empty the skimmer cup clean it out and scrub the powerheads.

 

For water changes I have two homer buckets from home depot and 5 of those water jugs like you see on the water coolers in offices. I mix my own salt so I can suppliment and it is cheaper. I get he R/O put my salt in and roll it around on the floor for a few min the day before to disolve it.

 

They are easy and not time consuming at all just set yourself on a schedule and you will cut the time down to when you have it quick and easy.

[Wizzy]

DOC= dissolved organic compound

 

Thanks

 

I have been in the no water change club before but went back to doing 10-20% every two weeks on my 210 with a 40 fuge and 40 sump. My tank looks just comes to life when I keep up on them. I am busy as can be too but it makes me maybe an hour tops to change the water, empty the skimmer cup clean it out and scrub the powerheads.

 

For water changes I have two homer buckets from home depot and 5 of those water jugs like you see on the water coolers in offices. I mix my own salt so I can suppliment and it is cheaper. I get he R/O put my salt in and roll it around on the floor for a few min the day before to disolve it.

 

They are easy and not time consuming at all just set yourself on a schedule and you will cut the time down to when you have it quick and easy.

 

I agree that water changes can definitely benefit a system, however I'd be interested in some of the specs of your system when you performed no water changes.

 

What kinds of fish/corals could you keep?

 

Pictures?

 

Thanks- Wizzy

[Deckoz2302]

think the last time I did a waterchange was 1st week in january...

[Wizzy]

think the last time I did a waterchange was 1st week in january...

 

Really? On the 25 gallon?

 

What would you say your approx. fuge size is?

 

Your system, albeit smaller, is sort of what I want mine to be like- mixed reef (Soft, LPS, SPS).

 

Have you noticed any change in your corals or fish during your no water change period?

 

Anything else you could tell me that you think could help (dosing, etc)?

 

Thanks- Wizzy

[john&steph]

Thanks

 

 

 

I agree that water changes can definitely benefit a system, however I'd be interested in some of the specs of your system when you performed no water changes.

 

What kinds of fish/corals could you keep?

 

Pictures?

 

Thanks- Wizzy

 

I was out of the country when the water changes were not being done. My wate did not look crystal clear when I returned after 7 months. the peramiters were still within range. My bio load was rather small for the size of the tank at that time. I only had a naso, hippo, pair of clowns and a diamond goby. As far as what I keep I have mainly softies with only one or two hard corals. I lost two clams in that time fram and do not know why.

 

I have since added 3 yellows, a powder blue and a blue jaw to the system. Went back to the steady water changes and the water looks better than ever. Fish are healthy and coral is growing and open all the time. The clam I have added is looking great. Not sure water quality had anything to do with the other two clams.

 

tank currently.

 

 

 

A video of feeding time.

 

 

[kgoldy]

So....I still haven't seen anyone post pics of setups with little to no wc's. "Proof is in the pudding" sort of thing......

 

Click some links, ya bum.

 

 

Video.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[metrokat]

I can vouch for KG's no WC tank. It's utterly awesome!!

[Deckoz2302]

I have about 7 gallons of fuge, one reactor running seachem denitrate(zeolite rock), one reactor running 50ml rowaphos. A skimmer. A filter sock. I run carbon for 2 days every weekend(sat&sun). I use redsea reefcare program, I dose

 

14ppm calc

0.74dkh

9ppm mag

0.02ppm iodide

4ppm potassium

0.04ppm iron

 

I dose these daily. The reef foundation and colors contain 36 other trace elements that are put into the supplements at the aproxamate levels at which they're used by corals. I have a steady 2-3ppm nitrates. And 0.1ppm phosphates(until yesterday my rowaphos was full..finally two months three weeks later). I maintain these nutrient levels for the zooxanthellae to thrive for expedited growth..which I've noticed quite a bit since I started this program. Some of the corals have taken a brownish sheen due to increased zoox populations - however its not a browning you would see with reduced polyp extension. This was to bee expected going into this accelerated growth program.

 

I feed 6ml of reef energy coral food daily. 1/4 cup of phyto plankton. A pinch of cyclopeeze(big pinch lol) medium pinch of new life spectrum pellets soaked in selcon,garlic and the phyto. Along with a small cube of nutramar ova & a few drops of oyster feast. Cube of mysis, krill, blood worms, brine or spirulina brine every other day. Nutrient transport via vortech for 45minutes after feeding. Excess is caught in filter sock which is washeprogram saturday. Ph swings from 8.17-8.26 in 24hours

 

A good example of this would be my white frogspawn before the program

 

And during

 

In the first picture you can see the white frogspawn is relatively white and had been this color in the donators tank for 7 years....the tips remained white however with the increased zooxanthellae(which is brown/green) light refracts the color of the zoox vs the corals natural color. If I were to cut my trates and ohos back to zero the corals would resume they're natural coloration once some of the zoox population dies off covering the natural pigmentation

 

Before I started this program I was doing a 4g water change every 3 weeks and using bionic and I maintained a 0NP system with full coral coloration but slower growth.

 

My sump fuge is filled with cheat. While my hob fudge is filled with bubble algae and cyano that gets completely cleared out except a small ammount every couple weeks. I let the hob fuge go outta controlled because bubble algae don't look pretty but they suck up mad nutrients

 

Hob fuge

 

Sump fuge

 

Here is the tank as of a few days ago

[londonloco]

TY for the pics, very pretty tanks!

[Wizzy]

Wow! I'm impressed with the amount of info/pictures you laid out before me (Thanks ).

 

john&steph

 

Nice setup and thanks for the pictures!

 

Kgoldy-

 

Is that a Copperband Butterflyfish I see?

 

I am planning on getting one, so I was wondering what your experience with them are?

 

Feeding, reef-safe, etc?

 

And as far as your no water change system goes, is there anything you use besides biological filtration?

 

My understanding is that all you do for filtration is macroalgae and you have a relatively deep sand bed.

 

Do you have HH's in your tank (bristleworms, asterina stars, etc)?

 

I plan on having a 120+ display with a 60+ sump where 20-30 gallons is a refugium.

 

I would employ a DSB for added Biological filtration.

 

I would change water every 2-3 months by 10%.

 

I plan on not having an HH's besides copepods and maybe amphipods.

 

Would this work?

 

I really want a tank environment like yours where I can perform minimal water changes and still keep soft, LPS, and SPS corals.

 

Deckoz2302-

 

Your knowledge of zooxanthellae is impressive

 

Where did you get all your information?

 

I am excited to see your results (as in increased growth, etc) with your current system.

 

Thanks- Wizzy

[Deckoz2302]

No problem sir - Its a pretty well known thing that sps and lps will start to brown if you keep nitrates above 0 and phosphates above 0. The key is obviously to limit these two nutrients as to not promote algae growth but instead just enough for zoox to thrive to provide increased amounts of amino acids and carbohydrates to the corals for skeletal building because of increased populations. Higher Population = more productive rates...the browning out is caused by zoox populations increasing(provided they aren't new corals adjusting to the light which can also cause browning from a recession of the corals soft tissues cell structure, but will also coincide with reduced polyp extension).

 

If you've ever seen anything come out of mariculture lagoons you'll notice the corals are brownish...but when they are brought into a lower nutrient system such as our aquariums they will color up due to the zoox populations dying off allowing the natural pigmentation of the coral to refract through the soft flesh

 

I am actually really impressed with the speed at which my corals are growing - aside from my softs. My acans for example all got placed within the aquarium around week 2 in january. all 13 of them have anywhere from 1-4 heads that are sprouting out the side of the single head frags and the new heads are anywhere from 1/4-1/2 inch. My birdsnest has over 22 new nubs since the beginning of january. My monti cap - has been growing, most of its expansion has stopped and it has started staging itself(splitting its plate into petals) going from a uniform edge, to having 7 or 8 petals around the rim in different parts. I can say corals are thriving aside from my loss of a single acro colony due to an acro eating nudi that survived an iodine dip(oops). But aside from that, everything else is actually starting to get used to the increased nutrient levels and colors are starting to show through the zoox partially again.

 

If you need any help or ideas on how to maintain a low nutrient system and keep them stable like other parameters, feel free to PM me and ill try to explain exactly what I do to the best of my ability.

[Wizzy]

No problem sir - Its a pretty well known thing that sps and lps will start to brown if you keep nitrates above 0 and phosphates above 0. The key is obviously to limit these two nutrients as to not promote algae growth but instead just enough for zoox to thrive to provide increased amounts of amino acids and carbohydrates to the corals for skeletal building because of increased populations. Higher Population = more productive rates...the browning out is caused by zoox populations increasing(provided they aren't new corals adjusting to the light which can also cause browning from a recession of the corals soft tissues cell structure, but will also coincide with reduced polyp extension).

 

If you've ever seen anything come out of mariculture lagoons you'll notice the corals are brownish...but when they are brought into a lower nutrient system such as our aquariums they will color up due to the zoox populations dying off allowing the natural pigmentation of the coral to refract through the soft flesh

 

I am actually really impressed with the speed at which my corals are growing - aside from my softs. My acans for example all got placed within the aquarium around week 2 in january. all 13 of them have anywhere from 1-4 heads that are sprouting out the side of the single head frags and the new heads are anywhere from 1/4-1/2 inch. My birdsnest has over 22 new nubs since the beginning of january. My monti cap - has been growing, most of its expansion has stopped and it has started staging itself(splitting its plate into petals) going from a uniform edge, to having 7 or 8 petals around the rim in different parts. I can say corals are thriving aside from my loss of a single acro colony due to an acro eating nudi that survived an iodine dip(oops). But aside from that, everything else is actually starting to get used to the increased nutrient levels and colors are starting to show through the zoox partially again.

 

If you need any help or ideas on how to maintain a low nutrient system and keep them stable like other parameters, feel free to PM me and ill try to explain exactly what I do to the best of my ability.

 

Thanks for another detailed response

 

If I have trouble replicating your nutrient levels in my aquarium I'll be sure to PM you.

 

I'll be watching your build to see how the coral colors change over time with your increased levels of zooxanthellae.

 

Thanks Again- Wizzy

[Wizzy]

bump

[Smity]

I've only been reefing for 2 years so my experience is not as rubust but from the 3 tanks that I have ran the more water % changed the better.

 

For example my 29 gallon I was changing 5 gallons every 2 weeks, but had low bioload and had a cheap HOB skimmer. I should have changed a larger % more.

 

Migrated some of that coral to a 10 gallon after I broke it down and I am doing a 50% water change every week with no skimmer and I have had more growth in all the coral in 6 months than I ever had in 15 months the 29 gallon was running.

 

It really is a vague question your asking and the only one to know would be yourself based on how much coral, fish, inverts, and FEED your tank once its up and running.

 

My suggestion the larger the % you change the better off you will be...

 

10% is the recommended but 50% works better for my current tank. But I understand that changing 100 gallons of water would not be to feasible for yourself but I would suggest more than you plan

[Wizzy]

I've only been reefing for 2 years so my experience is not as rubust but from the 3 tanks that I have ran the more water % changed the better.

 

For example my 29 gallon I was changing 5 gallons every 2 weeks, but had low bioload and had a cheap HOB skimmer. I should have changed a larger % more.

 

Migrated some of that coral to a 10 gallon after I broke it down and I am doing a 50% water change every week with no skimmer and I have had more growth in all the coral in 6 months than I ever had in 15 months the 29 gallon was running.

 

It really is a vague question your asking and the only one to know would be yourself based on how much coral, fish, inverts, and FEED your tank once its up and running.

 

My suggestion the larger the % you change the better off you will be...

 

10% is the recommended but 50% works better for my current tank. But I understand that changing 100 gallons of water would not be to feasible for yourself but I would suggest more than you plan

 

Thanks for the input

 

I understand that doing water changes can only benefit a system, however I am unable to do that with a 200+ gallon system due to time and cost of salt.

 

I want to set up a system that can have SPS, LPS, and Soft Corals while only doing 10% water changes every 2-3 months.

 

I also don't want to include a protein skimmer- following the lead of Kgoldy.

 

So, my questions are-

 

Is a system like this feasible?

 

Would adding a Protein Skimmer be beneficial?

 

Thanks- Wizzy

[mrbigshot]

if you cant afford the cost of salt for a 200g tank you wont be able to afford anything to put in it. change 20 gallons every two weeks that's roughly $170 dollars a year in reef crystals salt. waterchange's can be automated by using a tank controller and float switches, and aqualifters or by using peristaltic pumps.

 

large established tanks can go with less frequent water changes but you will spend the same amount of time monitoring it.

 

sounds like you need to keep a nano to moderately sized tank and invest in a good tank controller and automate top offs. you can do small water changes when you have a chance. low bio load, a handful of tough corals that like dirty water like zoa's and rely on the tank controller to do the worrying for you. just avoid demanding lps and sps corals.

 

i have no problems leaving my tank for extended periods of time with my apex running it. it will text me if anything like temp, ph, power outages, salinity, etc get out of range.(or i can log into it and check perarimeters from anywhere in the world from my phone or internet computer). give a good buddy a key to the house and just have extra top-off water and premixed water around so a house sitter can help if need be.

 

simple instructions like fill green bucket with tank water using a small bucket or glass . when full pour orange bucket back into the tank. leave a post note on the tank.

[Trick]

I feel like a kalkwasser reactor and calcium reactor would help. If you could get a full bank of dosing pumps though, that would probably be best.

 

This is in addition what others have stated about the filtration regarding a large refugium and plenty of macro's.