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4 stage r/o + inline DI system


jnicita

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Quick question for you all. I purchased a 4 stage system for my house and then a external DI filter for the water for the aquarium. I've tasted DI filtered water, and know that for the house I dont want to DI filter it, so I am tossing a T into the system and feeding one leg of the T into a inline DI filter with a ball valve on its output so when I need aquarium water, its 4 stage + DI.

 

Now here is my question, the "polishing filter" up on top, where water IS NOT fed through it until going to your cup, should I be placing my T after the polishing filter (ie: do I want to polish filter all water, or just the drinking water). I guess it makes sense to feed all water through the Polish and then T off to the DI, but I dont want to waste the polish filter. (Of course, if it really is doing more filtration, then it could save wear and tear on the DI canister as well, follow?). So with that, if someone could tell me if the polish filter does something for the "taste" of the water, or is it a needed or should be used filter for all water.

 

Hope that makes sense, thanks in advance.

 

John

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Quick question for you all. I purchased a 4 stage system for my house and then a external DI filter for the water for the aquarium. I've tasted DI filtered water, and know that for the house I dont want to DI filter it, so I am tossing a T into the system and feeding one leg of the T into a inline DI filter with a ball valve on its output so when I need aquarium water, its 4 stage + DI.

 

Now here is my question, the "polishing filter" up on top, where water IS NOT fed through it until going to your cup, should I be placing my T after the polishing filter (ie: do I want to polish filter all water, or just the drinking water). I guess it makes sense to feed all water through the Polish and then T off to the DI, but I dont want to waste the polish filter. (Of course, if it really is doing more filtration, then it could save wear and tear on the DI canister as well, follow?). So with that, if someone could tell me if the polish filter does something for the "taste" of the water, or is it a needed or should be used filter for all water.

 

Hope that makes sense, thanks in advance.

 

John

 

I would go ahead and T off of the main filter unit, before the polishing filter. You shouldnt need to "polish" anything. The DI should take care of whatever the RO membrane dosent

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I would go ahead and T off of the main filter. you shouldnt need to "polish" anything. The DI should take care of whatever the RO dosent

 

You need 3 stages . Sediment filter, Carbon Filter , membrane. This produces water fit for drinking/tropical aquarium. The 4 th stage would be a DI (resin) filter for your marine aquarium water. Anymore stages/ polishing at best is a gimmick fit for the Seller's money box.

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You need 3 stages . Sediment filter, Carbon Filter , membrane. This produces water fit for drinking/tropical aquarium. The 4 th stage would be a DI (resin) filter for your marine aquarium water. Anymore stages/ polishing at best is a gimmick fit for the Seller's money box.

 

Exactly... I'm not sure what a polishing filter is, but it probably adds minerals for taste, if anything.

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Exactly... I'm not sure what a polishing filter is, but it probably adds minerals for taste, if anything.

Polishing is usually a Carbon filter after the Membrane??? for whatever reason. Doesnt remove anything imo

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Drinking water type systems often have a final granular carbon "taste and odor" filter similar to those used by many refrigerators and ice makers.

 

You are best off to seperate the DI from the pressurized circuit completely since pressure tanks contribute to TDS creep which eats DI resin quickly.

You would place a tee, check valve and ball valve after the RO membrane but before the taste and odor filter with the check valve on the taste and odor filter side so pressurized water cannot get back to the DI. You will not make DI as fast but it will be much better quality and your DI will last many times longer.

 

Here is a diagram showing te placement of the components:

http://www.spectrapure.com/huds/4-STAGE-DWK-RODI-NAG.pdf

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Drinking water type systems often have a final granular carbon "taste and odor" filter similar to those used by many refrigerators and ice makers.

 

You are best off to seperate the DI from the pressurized circuit completely since pressure tanks contribute to TDS creep which eats DI resin quickly.

You would place a tee, check valve and ball valve after the RO membrane but before the taste and odor filter with the check valve on the taste and odor filter side so pressurized water cannot get back to the DI. You will not make DI as fast but it will be much better quality and your DI will last many times longer.

 

Here is a diagram showing te placement of the components:

http://www.spectrapure.com/huds/4-STAGE-DWK-RODI-NAG.pdf

 

 

Thanks to everyone, this diagram even made listening to your suggest easier. Basically it was how I ended up thinking I was going to do it, except for the check valve between the tank and the DI filter. I understand why output on the di feed would be slower, its only getting water as its pushed through the system, when I got a 80 GPD system, is it correct to just figure 80 into 24, or .3 gallons a hour I could expect from the DI output?

 

I think maybe I should have gotten a higher GPD output, glad I have a "nano".

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Thanks to everyone, this diagram even made listening to your suggest easier. Basically it was how I ended up thinking I was going to do it, except for the check valve between the tank and the DI filter. I understand why output on the di feed would be slower, its only getting water as its pushed through the system, when I got a 80 GPD system, is it correct to just figure 80 into 24, or .3 gallons a hour I could expect from the DI output?

 

I think maybe I should have gotten a higher GPD output, glad I have a "nano".

 

wouldnt that actually be 3.34 gallons per hour?

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I understand... Also GPD is a pretty subjective reading. If your water pressure is stronger at your house than the natl average(like 50psi), I believe you will actually yield more than 80 gpd. I think you will find it is more than enough. One thing to consider, if you have the space would be a small holding drum with a float switch. I know a few ppl that have that, so that the always have 40 or so gallons of RO/DI at all times.Thats what i plan on doing, once i finally get one

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Two thingshave a major effect on GPD, water presure and water temperature. Russ at Buckeye has a really nice calculator that is very accurate at the top of the page here:

www.buckeyefieldsupply.com

If you know your pressure and temperature you can get an accurate estimate of flow.

 

Note, colder water reduces GPD as does lower pressure but trying to warm the water is highly discouraged. Blending or tempering hot andcold is the quickest way there is to ruin a RO membrane, they acan only stand 113 degrees F before they melt. Remember being in the shower and someone flushes the toilet or starts the washer, you got your tush scalded and the same thing melts a membrane, 113 is all that hot. Also sticking a coil of tubing in a bucket or water with a heater is extremely inefficient since heaters are designed to heat a constant quantity of water not a flow of a quart a minute which is about what a 75 GPD RO flows between the treated and waste. The BTU's required to raise one gallon of wate reven one degree is tremendous.

 

If the flow is insufficient and you have a 75 GPD membrane then your best option is to install a booster pump to rase pressure, pressure easily overcomes the effect of cold water and besides colder water treats better, gives you lower RO TDS and your DI will last longer than with warm water.

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Two thingshave a major effect on GPD, water presure and water temperature. Russ at Buckeye has a really nice calculator that is very accurate at the top of the page here:

www.buckeyefieldsupply.com

If you know your pressure and temperature you can get an accurate estimate of flow.

 

Note, colder water reduces GPD as does lower pressure but trying to warm the water is highly discouraged. Blending or tempering hot andcold is the quickest way there is to ruin a RO membrane, they acan only stand 113 degrees F before they melt. Remember being in the shower and someone flushes the toilet or starts the washer, you got your tush scalded and the same thing melts a membrane, 113 is all that hot. Also sticking a coil of tubing in a bucket or water with a heater is extremely inefficient since heaters are designed to heat a constant quantity of water not a flow of a quart a minute which is about what a 75 GPD RO flows between the treated and waste. The BTU's required to raise one gallon of wate reven one degree is tremendous.

 

If the flow is insufficient and you have a 75 GPD membrane then your best option is to install a booster pump to rase pressure, pressure easily overcomes the effect of cold water and besides colder water treats better, gives you lower RO TDS and your DI will last longer than with warm water.

 

 

Thanks for the extra time and effort in educating (us all). I have decent pressure at my house, but it is a large house, with lots of opportunity as you say for the "someone flushes the toilet". So, I made sure to get a system with both permeate pump and a booster. Too many reads here and there about the need, plus I've read that its more eco friendly. Again, thanks for the help, I will re-read it a couple of times so that it all registers (long day at work, lots of idiot drivers in San Diego on the road".

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Quick question, finished hooking everything up last night, turned the water back on, and discovered a huge leak on the output of the flow regulator (its between the membrane and the permiate pump. I took it out of the system for now so that I could continue to test the system for other leaks. Im not pulling water from the system, so can I just leave it all hooked up while I wait for the flow restrictor replacement (it said 450 flow with a directional arrow on it).

 

Thanks

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The system will not function without the flow restrictor in place in most cases. The restrictor is what causes the backpressure required to force the water through the RO membrane.

 

If you are replacing it, buy yourself a capillary tube restrictor instead of a fixed one so you can adjust it for an exact 4:1 waste ratio yourself. The fixed style are never quite correct in most situations, they either waste too much or too little since everyones conditions are different.

 

A capillary tube is $4-$5 at places like www.spectrapure.com or www.buckeyefieldsupply.com .

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Okay, so now another question. Major driving factor behind this purchase over just paying .50 a gallon at a water place, was getting the house ice maker and fridge water access panel online with RO. Water is barely dripping out, and the ice cubes are too small to call ice cubes, its not getting enough water. The filter could stand to be changed, its been quite awhile, but while looking that part number up, I found that the system needs 40-100 psi to function. I know my house pressure is pretty decent, AND I have a permeate pump and a booster pump on the system (to maximize ro creation vs. waste water is the main reason).

 

I've read some posts at various places and have read a user or two talk about a booster pump between the tank output and the ice maker. Since you (azdesertrat) really seem to know what you are doing, any comments on this? I dont know how I would even wire in another pump, it seems that the pump has to know when to turn on and off, and how that is controlled, Im not sure (seems somehow, a pressure fitting controls it, I assume when the pressure going into the tank gets too high, it knows no water is bring made and no need for pump, but how would such a setup work on a ice maker/water dispenser at the fridge.

 

Unfortunately my fridge is all 1/4" instead of 3/8" like some of the newer ones are now being done to assist with this.

 

Thanks in advance, Ive moved the T to the input side now so it gets water from the house line vs. RO unit.

 

 

-John

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You must have a pressure tank for an icemaker, there is no way around it. When the icemaker fills it requires more volume and faster than a RO membrane can provide. The pressure tank gives it that water on demand. Looking back through your post I don't see a pressure tank mentioned?

 

I think the least expensive complete drinking water kit with a tank I have come across recently is at www.purelyh2o.com for like $59 or so.

 

Also a permeate pump requires a pressure tank to operate since it uses the stored pressure in the pressure tank to drive the piston, otherwise its no different than any other autoshutoff valve.

 

If you do have a pressure tank, make sure the rubber bladder is pressurized to around 5-6 psi when the tank is completely empty, otherwise it is what we called "waterlogged" and is not efficient if it works at all. The same thing happens if the rubber bladder ruptures or tears and loses it air charge.

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You must have a pressure tank for an icemaker, there is no way around it. When the icemaker fills it requires more volume and faster than a RO membrane can provide. The pressure tank gives it that water on demand. Looking back through your post I don't see a pressure tank mentioned?

 

I think the least expensive complete drinking water kit with a tank I have come across recently is at www.purelyh2o.com for like $59 or so.

 

Also a permeate pump requires a pressure tank to operate since it uses the stored pressure in the pressure tank to drive the piston, otherwise its no different than any other autoshutoff valve.

 

If you do have a pressure tank, make sure the rubber bladder is pressurized to around 5-6 psi when the tank is completely empty, otherwise it is what we called "waterlogged" and is not efficient if it works at all. The same thing happens if the rubber bladder ruptures or tears and loses it air charge.

 

 

Sorry, yes, I do have a 5.5gal pressure tank (I was told that its really only 4-4.5 gallons due to the bladder your talking about). As a matter of fact, I have a additional 4 gallon unit that (3 gallon usable) that I was going to T into the system at the other tank. I have the space behind the sink pipes for an additional tank, but not really any more space for a single larger unit.

 

Water comes out of the sink dispenser with a high amount of pressure, but I dont have anything to test it really. It "looks" sufficient (ha ha ha). Anyways, the ICE maker is on my LG french door freezer and the cartridge cant be bypassed (already checked) but the manufacture states minimum of 40 PSI, the filter is old, but because they said 40 psi, I just aborted the install and moved the ice maker connection to the input side instead of the output side of the system. I'd like to get the ice maker up and running, along with the door water dispenser so knowing that I have to have more pressure, any takes on a booster pump on the output from RO system to ice maker?

 

 

I've followed your posts all over the place, so I know you know your stuff, I wanted to ask one more question.

 

I had a type B (barrel type not the type in the tube) 450gal flow restrictor on my unit when it shipped it was cracked. (Didnt notice until I hooked my unit up). I took the flow restrictor out and bypassed it while I looked for one to order. Keep in mind, I am not using the water for my tank at this time. Were not using it, because I dont know what would happen without the flow restrictor. I think the wife may have had a glass of water or so, and I allowed about 4 gallons to pump out to make sure the DI output was setup in a location that could be used (but the water not added to tank or used). Anyways, I couldnt locate a 450 gal unit, but at bulk reef supply, they had a 75gpd unit (my system is a 80 gpd membrane) so I ordered it. Should be okay right?

 

I know no flow restrictor is how those flush units work, but I have no idea what would happen to the system or output water with it removed. Like I mentioned, we have not been using it, the way it was wired into the system, I had to add the jumper so that I could allow the sink cold water to be on. (This whole exercise has told me that I need to add a ball valve inline after the main valve, since my valve is a all or nothing (cant turn off the 1/4" feed to the accessory without turning the entire valve off).

 

Thanks in advance for your posts and next post, Im sure it will have the info I need.

 

-John

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Until you get your flow restrictor installed, stick a ball valve on the waste line and pinch it down until you have a steady trickle them measure the flow from it and the treated line to see if you are close to 4:1. Without a flow restrictor in the waste line you won't have much pressure on the treated side so the pressure tank will not work.

If it were me, I would get a capillary tube flow restrictor versus a fixed restrictor so you can trim it to your exact needs, the fixed type are hit and miss, especially when you start adding things like a permeate pump or booster pump and an ASOV.

 

I have never heard of a 80 GPD membrane? Who supplied that one? Spectrapure rates theirs at 90 GPD at 60 psi and 77 degrees F, Dow Filmtec says 75 GPD at 50 psi and 77 degrees and GE Water says 100 GPD at 65 psi and 77 degrees. You lay the graphs on top of each other and they are about identical, just different pressure points on the same curve.

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Until you get your flow restrictor installed, stick a ball valve on the waste line and pinch it down until you have a steady trickle them measure the flow from it and the treated line to see if you are close to 4:1. Without a flow restrictor in the waste line you won't have much pressure on the treated side so the pressure tank will not work.

If it were me, I would get a capillary tube flow restrictor versus a fixed restrictor so you can trim it to your exact needs, the fixed type are hit and miss, especially when you start adding things like a permeate pump or booster pump and an ASOV.

 

I have never heard of a 80 GPD membrane? Who supplied that one? Spectrapure rates theirs at 90 GPD at 60 psi and 77 degrees F, Dow Filmtec says 75 GPD at 50 psi and 77 degrees and GE Water says 100 GPD at 65 psi and 77 degrees. You lay the graphs on top of each other and they are about identical, just different pressure points on the same curve.

 

Got my stuff from http://www.h2osplashwaterfilters.com/

 

 

Thanks for the info. I've seen your "procedure" for setting the cap tube (maybe next time). If I see some unusual membrane life (like 18 months and you suggested as a wasted membrane). Or once Im actually bored and can do the "procedure" of the timed waste water test.

 

I assume that regardless of a permeate or booster, your testing right off the hose that the flow restrictor in connected too?

 

I should have to inline replacement tomorrow. And will just tell everyone DONT use the water. I didn't read where you told me bypassing the restrictor would do to the water quality, but again, less than 10 gallons has been made by the system, and I've already told the house, no use yet.

 

Thanks again, talk to you soon.

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Regardless of what restrictor you get, you need to check the waste ratio and it should be close to 4:1. If not you are either wasting water and making the membrane less efficient or not wasting enough and toasting your membrane. Thats why the $5 capillary tube restrictor is best, you yourself do the fine tuning.

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