Peter's petite pair of picos

[castiel]

Oh and on the lights, I am thinking that one light spanning both tanks will be good at some point, but probably can't do that for a month or two. Hopefully the current lights are sufficient to get things started.

[brandon429]

id just wait to add corals until the lights are ready. to handle the new tank live rock scallops etc the light isn't needed.

 

 

Experimenting with food is okay but it can change the algae characters in your tank (which is no big deal if practicing the manual removal technique)

 

if you are coupling the feed to a water change that happens less...

That phytoplex doesn't have to be refrigerated, so its got binders and preservatives that are impurities other feed modes wouldn't bring in. Its like using flake feed instead of using only frozen reef foods. Using frozen cyclopeeze is ideal because its been so thoroughly tested as low in pollution to the tank and its nearly a total stand alone feed source for the life of the tank. its fun to try different feeds however just to see what effect it will have, soon I w try some rods food for my picos.

 

The phosphate media should be last in the chain, last point of water contact, so that whole particles won't clog it up. you want the floss first. and it should be changed, not rinsed, very often. Just thrown out and replaced weekly at minimum.

 

The other media needs to be kept clean, it shouldn't be allowed to become a store for brown detritus. if filters aren't kept clean, they are working against you even with phosphate media in the mix. Phosphates are not the only things that leach from breaking down detritus (protein), the reason I don't use filters is because they make more work for a tank, not less. But its totally okay to use them if you want.

 

 

Keeping scallops long term in picos is not seen, because they are hard to feed. There is almost no reef food you can present from a bottle that will sustain it. Your best bet is to beef up the pod/worm production in the sandbed and live rock using those larvae as suspended items consistenly available to feed the type of filter feeders you are hoping to target. Thats secondary level feeding, its a function of heavily feeding the primary reef tank in a way that won't cause it to store up waste.

 

If you ever bought frozen bar cyclopeeze, and some frozen mysis to blenderize and add from time to time, those two feeds alone will run your tank indefinately using any fish and invert. That combination is unbeatable.

 

I would never add iodine or any other doser to this system, just c balance, feed and water changes. sorry I yapped so much in your thread lol its just a nice starting point in a sea of a billion different ways.

[metrokat]

Mantis! You'll have to spear a krill on a bamboo stick and dangle it in front of all the nooks and crannies for the shrimp to come out.

 

In other news, there are random clicking noises coming from the tanks sometimes! Doing a search, could be a pistol shrimp? Can't see anything at all, nevermind near the glass.

[castiel]

Brandon, thanks again for your advice! Don't worry about 'yapping' in my thread, this is all fantastic direction for a newbie pico reefer. In fact I think you should write some of it up and create a sticky thread called 'Brandon's guide to pico reefs - newbies READ' =0)

 

I plan on keeping the media and change: floss - multiple times per week (to start with anyway), carbon - weekly, phosban - will see how that goes.

 

As for the mantis, he can live ... for now! Unless he becomes too annoying ... but will have to go (I think) before I add corals etc.

[brandon429]

Im so glad to have a side by side run

it will be fun and both tanks can work to show varying methods and their subtle differences

you've already started this tank with quite the biodiversity man wow those neat hitchhikers

those never came in on my rocks, you have two good finds!

[castiel]

Well, how 'side by side' it is I can't say - the other tank is my wife's to do with as she pleases, so she may well decide to do what I am doing, or something completely different!

 

As for the rock, yes it was nice and fresh. The guy at the LFS store helped choose the 'lightweight' pieces too, so there's lots of filter potential in there.

 

I lost a few hitchhikers when I broke up the rock too - a few bristleworms and a shrimp of some kind (grey with slightly darker bands), but lots remained =0)

[Old Gregg]

Nice pair of Peticos! I'd recommend against replacing the bioballs with liverock rubble. You're basically substituting a pretty blue plastic ball without anaerobic zones for tiny pieces of rocks that do exactly the same thing. For the most part, their will not be anaerobic bacteria because the pieces are so tiny oxygenated water will be able to infiltrate the pores. The waste products in the tank will convert directly to nitrates and float about the tank. With anaerobic zones, nitrite is converted into nitrogen gas and it will bubble harmlessly out of the aquarium, keeping nitrates lower.

 

The rubble will however trap detritus, it will decompose releasing nutrients into the tank, and will generally do more harm than good for most setups.

 

Don't get me wrong! Aerobic zones are absolutely 100% crucial for every tank! The large rocks you have will be more than enough filtration to convert all the fish poo you can throw at it into a safer compound soon enough!

[castiel]

Interesting advice, but unfortunately too late - the bioballs are already ditched! Hopefully the live rock rubble will still do the job.

[.Newman.]

LR rubble seem to work; one of the members on here is doing a cryptic fuge with rubble in the fuge and his picotope turned out nicely for more than a year now.

[castiel]

Well the good news for Brandon is that my wife has said she doesn't want to do full water changes, and will be doing 30-50% changes instead. Actually I think I might do the first water change tonight (4 days after introducing the LR) - the tanks are getting a bit stinky. I think my wife will be leaving hers for the first few weeks as others have advised.

 

So in that respect you will get a nice side by side =0)

 

At what point should I be looking to introduce a CUC?

 

(oh, and the mystery clicker is getting more and more active! Little ####, haha).

[.Newman.]

after you know your cycle is over, let it run for a few days. then do a water change to reduce nitrates as low as they go (below 10ppm) and then go get your CUC that day.

[castiel]

That's what I figured, thanks.

 

One other thing I hadn't mentioned so far (I don't think?) is that I am using actual ocean water, rather than home made. I've tested the salinity and it's spot on 1.025. And with the lids, we're getting next to zero evap, so haven't even needed to top off yet.

[28g nano noob]

That's what I figured, thanks.

 

One other thing I hadn't mentioned so far (I don't think?) is that I am using actual ocean water, rather than home made. I've tested the salinity and it's spot on 1.025. And with the lids, we're getting next to zero evap, so haven't even needed to top off yet.

the petco kind?

[brandon429]

+1 on side by side run this is very helpful.

 

ocean water? wow thats rare for a pico. before dosing any c balance we must test the calcium and alk. right at water change time, then 5 days later on the same water.

 

ocean water can be very good and very bad depending. for suspended feed items, ways to keep that scallop alive, you can't have a better source. real ocean water would do it.

 

neat variables we got here today, cool thread man

[castiel]

Ocean water as in real ocean water from the LFS. I do live on the coast of the Southern Ocean =0)

 

It costs the same as RO water, so I figured I might as well use the real stuff! What are the negatives with ocean water? Just the lack of control over content?

 

I'll be sure to get some calcium and alk tests (just have the API Freshwater kit at the moment).

[brandon429]

Ocean water counts as bioload not just water, thats a big difference between the two. Ocean water has thousands of species of bacteria and living animals and plants and if they die, the water spoils faster than clean synthetic water will. we need to know all the details on how its collected, prepared and stored for sale at the lfs, the chain of command to make predictions about it. how long you store it before use will also matter. you are either going to wind up finding ways to sustain a separate tank which is your change water essentially, or make a lot of trips to the petstore refilling.

 

I would not use ocean water in a pico but thats out of lazy mans preference for what works on the least effort. The next big break in the science might from from seawater use so by all means do that footwork and post back for others to learn, you have taken all measures for success so far thats for sure. nice prep

 

 

 

As these suspended seawater animals/plants in seawater are left circulated in a pico reef that has comparatively zero nutrient cycling to support them, and at worst fluctuations in water chem to kill them, they begin to dieoff and are a source of organic decay + more bacterial loading feeding on them + all the organic decay from your rock structure and added feeds which likely haven't been exported in 15 days and an algae crash will start within two months on lax water changes. Picos have pH shifts every night and day, these animals aren't used to that, for sure. several other examples exist making seawater use in a pico very challenging.

 

If you change the water as the tank needs then essentially all you are doing is keeping fresh suspended ocean items in the pico reef and that's excellent. better than synthetic

 

But the line is very fine, seawater pico reefs will absolutely carry a higher nutritive index and as such are set for algae battles much faster than synthetic/starved water pico reefs. knowing this ahead of time might compel ya'll to change more water heh

 

 

But for keeping live rock pristine and supporting every strange animal you ever wanted to keep, seawater can't be touched. its really good and really bad at the same time.

 

If you ask your LFS about its use in a pico they'll make comparisons to what they know for larger reefs, but they have not actually worked with a 2 gallon pico reef with seawater and neither has anyone else on our site more than a couple months so this is a great experiment. try finding any work on the internet about a 2 gallon with seawater...I happen to know of a circumstance in the 1970's where exactly that was done by Dr Ellen Thaler, google the Thaler puddle.

 

It was 100% consumed by algae, dominating the entire tank, but technically anemones survived in it for years on seawater. Your trick will be preventing the algae domination part since the web will ridicule someone now for rolling a tank like that lol

back then it was science just to keep the anems alive, and darn good science at that. I believe Dr Ellen Thaler had the first known pico reef of any size during times of modern documentation. I was unable to locate an older reference to a pico reef for ten years, am still looking.

 

using ocean water requires water testing for sure on all water params on a regular basis to tune the beast. Sure you could make it work, there's a thread on here with a guy doing ocean water in a nano for a few months (biological filtration forum iirc) but the reason you can't find any threads on the whole internet of it being successfully done in a two gallon long term means something.

 

It may mean you are about to do something that's not been done before in pico reefing, if I was you Id be brainstorming ways to approach the task differently since previous success measures rarely make it past a year using the best methods known.

 

its a great idea, to sum up I think if you change water like a madman it will work, and if its lax the tank getting the least water changes will give the most headaches by about Christmas 2011 time.

[metrokat]

As for the mantis, he can live ... for now! Unless he becomes too annoying ... but will have to go (I think) before I add corals etc.

 

 

Mantis do not hurt coral. They eat all the livestock however.

 

All I can say is WOW, to the post below.

 

Ocean water counts as bioload not just water, thats a big difference between the two. Ocean water has thousands of species of bacteria and living animals and plants and if they die, the water spoils faster than clean synthetic water will. we need to know all the details on how its collected, prepared and stored for sale at the lfs, the chain of command to make predictions about it. how long you store it before use will also matter. you are either going to wind up finding ways to sustain a separate tank which is your change water essentially, or make a lot of trips to the petstore refilling.

 

I would not use ocean water in a pico but thats out of lazy mans preference for what works on the least effort. The next big break in the science might from from seawater use so by all means do that footwork and post back for others to learn, you have taken all measures for success so far thats for sure. nice prep

 

 

 

As these suspended seawater animals/plants in seawater are left circulated in a pico reef that has comparatively zero nutrient cycling to support them, and at worst fluctuations in water chem to kill them, they begin to dieoff and are a source of organic decay + more bacterial loading feeding on them + all the organic decay from your rock structure and added feeds which likely haven't been exported in 15 days and an algae crash will start within two months on lax water changes. Picos have pH shifts every night and day, these animals aren't used to that, for sure. several other examples exist making seawater use in a pico very challenging.

 

If you change the water as the tank needs then essentially all you are doing is keeping fresh suspended ocean items in the pico reef and that's excellent. better than synthetic

 

But the line is very fine, seawater pico reefs will absolutely carry a higher nutritive index and as such are set for algae battles much faster than synthetic/starved water pico reefs. knowing this ahead of time might compel ya'll to change more water heh

 

 

But for keeping live rock pristine and supporting every strange animal you ever wanted to keep, seawater can't be touched. its really good and really bad at the same time.

 

If you ask your LFS about its use in a pico they'll make comparisons to what they know for larger reefs, but they have not actually worked with a 2 gallon pico reef with seawater and neither has anyone else on our site more than a couple months so this is a great experiment. try finding any work on the internet about a 2 gallon with seawater...I happen to know of a circumstance in the 1970's where exactly that was done by Dr Ellen Thaler, google the Thaler puddle.

 

It was 100% consumed by algae, dominating the entire tank, but technically anemones survived in it for years on seawater. Your trick will be preventing the algae domination part since the web will ridicule someone now for rolling a tank like that lol

back then it was science just to keep the anems alive, and darn good science at that. I believe Dr Ellen Thaler had the first known pico reef of any size during times of modern documentation. I was unable to locate an older reference to a pico reef for ten years, am still looking.

 

using ocean water requires water testing for sure on all water params on a regular basis to tune the beast. Sure you could make it work, there's a thread on here with a guy doing ocean water in a nano for a few months (biological filtration forum iirc) but the reason you can't find any threads on the whole internet of it being successfully done in a two gallon long term means something.

 

It may mean you are about to do something that's not been done before in pico reefing, if I was you Id be brainstorming ways to approach the task differently since previous success measures rarely make it past a year using the best methods known.

 

its a great idea, to sum up I think if you change water like a madman it will work, and if its lax the tank getting the least water changes will give the most headaches by about Christmas 2011 time.

[brandon429]

http://www.midlandreefs.co.uk/xcart/produc...productid=16164

 

Its in this printed article that Thaler's story was told and as such is the oldest reference to pico reef work we have for modern times.

 

 

even more interesting

http://www.parlouraquariums.org.uk/Papers/...r%20aquarum.htm

 

victorian pico reefs using no circulation, just rock sand and life piled into a vase and the water was changed out daily in most cases. Rascals beat us to pico reefing heh.

 

but they couldn't stick sps to glass

stone agers

 

 

there is a history of success with picos and seawater but they aren't with todays lights and corals.

 

your experimentation with seawater is great to have on the site and for me to learn by. Nither system will show much variance for the next few months, they will run perfectly.

 

The only variable that will change will be the amount of algae work as the tanks age

 

seawater has potential

hopefully these brainstorms will give you some angles to borrow and change in your adventure.

 

 

neat calculator that will tell you the cumulative effects in any timeframe of partial water changes:

 

http://www.hamzasreef.com/Contents/Calcula...WaterChange.php

 

I plugged in a 2 gallon tank running .8 gallon changes every two weeks. it will take 5 months to approximate one full water change of equivalent waste export, what a cool calculator. imagine having fish + waste + water borne bioloading in that timeframe

[castiel]

Brandon, that's an amazing write up and I will try to keep up my end with regular updates, tests and pictures!

 

What I believe my approach will be:

 

- Weekly major water changes (ocean water)

- Media: phosphate absorption, live rock rubble, carbon pouch, white wool

- Hardware: swapping the light out for higher powered LED/T5, adding a mini powerhead to increase flow

- Dosing: potentially C Balance depending on readings

- Feeding: phytoplankton, plus whatever else to feed what is introduced

- Temperature: Steady 80F (which is what it is at currently)

- Lighting: An hour BLUE in the morning, 10-11 hours BLUE + WHITE daytime, 3 hours BLUE in the evening, OFF overnight

 

Does that all still make sense?

 

Will do some more readings tonight of Ammonia, Nitrite and Nitrate before and after the water change.

 

http://www.hamzasreef.com/Contents/Calcula...WaterChange.php

That is a very cool calculator.

 

25% changes = 32% old water remaining

50% changes = 6% old water remaining

75% changes = <1% old water remaining

 

So massive gains in moving up from 25% to 50%, not so much in the next 25% move to 75%, but that equates to a full change each month.

 

So at 7 litres per week changes (I reckon of my 13L, 5 will be taken up by sand and rock, leaving 8 of water?), I'll need around 28 litres per month. Which based on LFS prices will cost about $10. Less if I travel further to a different store nearer the cost, only $6 there.

[brandon429]

the only thing that calc doesnt provide is the required rate of exchange of the full tank volume, relative to bioloading etc, we have to guesstimate that part based on others past posted experiences. I do think that calc is really neat tho

 

 

 

bro you are set, that's a solid approach. Really solid Im sure you are off to the best start possible it will work.

 

tell me about the ocean water prep though, are you going to keep it at home say 5 or 10 gallons? or go buy it fresh from the lfs each time

 

how about just aerating it in an open container, topping off as needed? I wouldn't let the temp spike or drop on it so the planktonic life will stay in support as long as possible. I think if it didn't range outside of 70-80 degrees as it sits aerating waiting to be used it would be fine. hopefully the lfs takes that good of care at least

[castiel]

the only thing that calc doesnt provide is the required rate of exchange of the full tank volume, relative to bioloading etc, we have to guesstimate that part based on others past posted experiences. I do think that calc is really neat tho

 

bro you are set, that's a solid approach. Really solid Im sure you are off to the best start possible it will work.

Awesome =0)

 

tell me about the ocean water prep though, are you going to keep it at home say 5 or 10 gallons? or go buy it fresh from the lfs each time

 

how about just aerating it in an open container, topping off as needed? I wouldn't let the temp spike or drop on it so the planktonic life will stay in support as long as possible. I think if it didn't range outside of 70-80 degrees as it sits aerating waiting to be used it would be fine.

A very good question and one I hadn't considered. I had figured we would put the 7litres in a bucket, heat it up and change. But now you've very aptly described what ocean water includes, it's clear it needs some care and attention too.

 

We have 2x 15L containers, so would go and top up every other week. I guess we could look to build a 30L+ container with a heater and air stone to keep it aerated and at the right temp, ready for the water changes. That way we don't need to worry about doing that each time we do a change.

 

Just noticed your comment about the LFS - I'll check their care process next time I go in.

[tylernt]

OMG I just realized you linked to my thread! I'm humbled.

 

I enlarged the hole and added more flow based on andrewkw's incredible IQ3. Dunno if the IQ5 needs a flow upgrade as well, but adding more flow now is sure easier than when the tank is stuffed with corals!

 

the thermometer we just put on the tank (the stick on outside strip kind) shows just 21C.

Not a fan of the stick-on thermometers, they tend to read room temperature and the IQ tanks have unusually thick acrylic (which is an insulator).

 

"The twins" look great and with brandon429 helping, they should really thrive!

[castiel]

Yeah the stick on thermometer was clearly a bad idea. We've added normal thermometers (still the cheap variety) and there is 5 degrees difference!

 

As for your thread, it was great to read through and I'll be doing the same with andrewkw's too =0)

[castiel]

Damn, the heater I ordered didn't arrive in time so the first water change is going to have to wait until tomorrow ...

 

Also I am seeing quite a bit of this white mucus stuff, particularly on the left side tank. Should I be concerned?

[BigBad82]

tanks are looking great, recently setup a dymax IQ5 myself will be watching with interest.