Infestation of bristle worms

[oneart]

I apologize if this question was asked, but I can't seem to find the answer in the posts. My tank has slowly been getting infested with bristle worms and now they cover most of my life rock - bigger ones - about 6 inches (probably 50 or more) - and many many babies. They are no longer nocturnal there are so many.

 

My tank has been established about 5 years, but for the past year I've been in grad school and things are going south in there. I recently lost my crabs - a sally light foot and a hermit - and then my Catalina goby. Now my serpent star's skeleton is showing. I only have a sun coral and mushrooms in there right now, and for livestock, two yellow watchman gobies, a yellow tailed damsel and one snail. Plus, I'm getting red slime.

I think the problem started when I pulled the protein skimmer, since it's a small tank (custom build - 9 gallons with a wet dry in the back) and I can't find the stubby stones any more that I used to use for the only protein skimmer that will fit. I know this sounds pretty pathetic, but I guess my question is, does anyone know the best way to get rid of the worms? They must be adding toxins, and they are crawling over my poor dying serpent and all the rocks. I really hate them right now.

 

I have to move in two months and am going to upgrade to a 12 gallon that will fit a different protein skimmer (not allowed to have a larger tank as per landlords). Should I replace all the rock without corals and try to pick the worms off the rocks with the corals? This would mean cycling again...The tank is too small for a wrasse though and I have two watchman gobies and a yellow tailed damsel. Therefore, not sure about the arrow crab either. I'm wondering if I could take the rock out and dip it in fresh water or something, but then would it be safe to put back in, or would there be die off? Anyway, sorry for the length of this. If anyone has any suggestions, I'd appreciate it. My tank is one of the few things that keeps me sane in this world and it's really upsetting to not know how to handle the worms.

[chucktdbm321]

dont quote me on this but i think arrow crabs enjoy eating polychates

[LarryMoeCurly]

Why do you want to get rid of the worms? They are good to have, they are a great CUC.

 

What makes you think they are adding toxins?

 

If you did want to get rid of them, a FW dip might do it.

[oneart]

Why do you want to get rid of the worms? They are good to have, they are a great CUC.

 

What makes you think they are adding toxins?

 

If you did want to get rid of them, a FW dip might do it.

 

Thanks for the replies! I want to get rid of them because they are EVERYWHERE and it's just too hard to see them crawling over my dying serpent start. He's not even dead yet! They've even pulled the food in the past when he ate too close to them. I only think they might be adding toxins since they are living and there are so many and everything must add a little to the bioload. The tank is only nine gallons.

 

Anyway, would the freshwater dip kill everything else too? I've probably got lots of other life in those rocks since I can see the coppods come out at night? Do you think an arrow crab would harm a one and half inch watchman goby? If not, the arrow crab might be the better solution.

Thanks again for your replies.

 

 

dont quote me on this but i think arrow crabs enjoy eating polychates

 

Do you think an arrow crab would harm a one and half inch watchman goby? Thanks.

[JaneG]

I have quite a few in my 10 gallon tank right now and I don't really like them either :\. Although people say they're good, if you really want to get rid of them a sixline wrasse might help (although most are against them in a tank this small - a possum or cryptid wrasse may do the trick but I don't know if they eat bristle worms?). Good luck!

[Urchinhead]

Don't fight this biologically. As in adding fish/crab/etc. It will only cause more problems in the long run. Pick up a bristle worm trap, follow the directions, and repeat until they are all (or mostly) gone. It will take time but it will get rid of them.

[oneart]

Don't fight this biologically. As in adding fish/crab/etc. It will only cause more problems in the long run. Pick up a bristle worm trap, follow the directions, and repeat until they are all (or mostly) gone. It will take time but it will get rid of them.

 

Thanks a lot! I've thought about the biological ideas but the tank just seems too small to add the kind of species that are needed. I had also thought about a trap in the past but didn't move forward because there is no sand (mostly rock) to lay it down on. But, since I'm moving to a slightly larger set up, I could keep the rock instead of replacing it all, and just leave room on the sand for a trap. This would save me from having to replace all of my rock, which is about 20 lbs worth! The worms that are in the rock with the coral would probably just move into my new rock anyway.

[chucktdbm321]

A loooonnnnggg time...

[oneart]

A loooonnnnggg time...

 

Well, I wish there was another way.... Maybe I will try lifting the rock and picking them off. That might give me a little bit of a head start on them. The only thing is, with 2 fish who only eat what drops in front of their eyes (watchman gobies) and a sun coral that needs feeding, what will keep these things from coming back even if I can manage to reduce their numbers? Argh.

[chucktdbm321]

That will be key^... What i would do is try to manual remove them several times a day or as much as possible and once you almost have them almost completely gone then i would try the bristle worm trap

[saltohio]

bristle worms and now they cover most of my life rock - bigger ones - about 6 inches (probably 50 or more) - and many many babies.

 

Pics please.

[mmcguffi]

Personally I wouldnt touch em. I think they are harmless and actually essential and important CUC members.

 

But I dont see the problem with adding an arrow crab--unless 12 gal is too small for one. Handel biology with biology, that's why we add LR/LS for bacterial filtering, macros for organic waste, peppermint shrimp for aiptasia, snails for algae, harlequins for asterinas, etc, etc.

[Urchinhead]

Do it before you move to the new tank. You would just be moving the problem otherwise.

 

Get the trap. Don't feed for 3ish days. Your fish and sun corals will be fine with this.

 

Bait the trap. Watch the little $hites crawl out of the rock work to get at the trap. Remove trap. Flush worms. Repeat.

 

Alternately cut the corals you like off the live rock with a dremmel or the like so that you preserve the corals without the worms. Dump the remaining coral free rock into a Hydrogen Peroxide bath for several hours. Rinse the now dead rock repeatedly until all of the Peroxide and as many of the dead worms as possible are gone. Put the now dead rock into a large bucket with salt water power head and heater to recure for about 2ish weeks. Protect rocks from light but allow for aeration so as to avoid algae blooms. Test water and do regular water changes and top off's to keep salinity et al. in balance and export nutrients (ammonia nitrite nitrate).

 

When rocks are cured glue the portions of the rocks you have cut off back onto the rocks (or just start over) and put rocks into new tank.

[Urchinhead]

Remember a single arrow crab will not take care of this problem, will grow up and end up eating things you don't want it to, and will ultimately have to either go somewhere else or get killed by you unless you like the idea of having it eat your fish because its an opportunistic omnivore and will eat a fish if it can catch it sleeping or the like. Same deal with a six line. It will get the smaller ones but it won't take on the bigger ones and over time it will become a very mean fish.

 

In this case and with all due respect to mmc handling biology with biology doesn't make sense here.

 

He is right that they are not harmful per se. but I can't stand the damn things and don't want them in my tank. Ergo kill them with extreme prejudice.

 

The best way to keep it from happening again is to make sure that you don't have any in the new tank.

 

I realize that sounds like a "No S***" answer but its true.

 

I also decided to look a bit deeper into this and after about an hour of research have found references from Calfo et al. to using a magnesium chloride dip that is normalized to your particular salinity level as an alternative to the peroxide and allowing you to keep coral on rock as it were. I also found reference to strong dips of Lugol's to drive them out of the rocks. 5 minutes of time in dip with 5-10 drops of lugols in a 1 liter container. Add 5 drops per additional liter of water.

 

Peroxide is the proverbial "nuclear" option by the way. And it would be a 25%+ ratio of peroxide to water. Going all the way up to a 50/50 ratio.

[Arkayology]

Bristle worms will only g et as big and as numerous as you let them; i.e. feed your tank less and it will balance itself out

 

Also, did I read correctly that you have a serpet star in a 9g tank... and it's dying and you are keeping it in there?

[oneart]

Remember a single arrow crab will not take care of this problem, will grow up and end up eating things you don't want it to, and will ultimately have to either go somewhere else or get killed by you unless you like the idea of having it eat your fish because its an opportunistic omnivore and will eat a fish if it can catch it sleeping or the like. Same deal with a six line. It will get the smaller ones but it won't take on the bigger ones and over time it will become a very mean fish.

 

In this case and with all due respect to mmc handling biology with biology doesn't make sense here.

 

He is right that they are not harmful per se. but I can't stand the damn things and don't want them in my tank. Ergo kill them with extreme prejudice.

 

The best way to keep it from happening again is to make sure that you don't have any in the new tank.

 

I realize that sounds like a "No S***" answer but its true.

 

I also decided to look a bit deeper into this and after about an hour of research have found references from Calfo et al. to using a magnesium chloride dip that is normalized to your particular salinity level as an alternative to the peroxide and allowing you to keep coral on rock as it were. I also found reference to strong dips of Lugol's to drive them out of the rocks. 5 minutes of time in dip with 5-10 drops of lugols in a 1 liter container. Add 5 drops per additional liter of water.

 

Peroxide is the proverbial "nuclear" option by the way. And it would be a 25%+ ratio of peroxide to water. Going all the way up to a 50/50 ratio.

 

Wow... Thanks for the research and all the info! Where do you get magnesium chloride? Do you have the link to Calfo? Cutting the coral from the rock seems a bit hard. My sun coral would not appreciate it, and that rock he's lodged onto is pretty big and pretty wormy. I could probably dip that rock while keeping the sun coral out of it, but 5 mins seems like a long time to keep it out of water. Do you know if the Lugols is coral safe? I also think I have to replace all the sand, since it looks like its got veins running through it. I'm not sure I can beat these suckers though before I move everything though because that means I'd have to remove the sand before I dip the rock, and the sand is under all the rock. Otherwise, they'll just crawl from the sand to the rock. Unless I do it all in one day, which I guess is the way to do it. Thank you so much for all the info. And yeah, to SoCalDude, it is true that I have a dying serpent in there, but he's still moving and I can't just kill him. Until I deal with the worms, it doesn't really matter. They already own the place.

[Urchinhead]

You're welcome.

 

Unfortunately all the references to Calfo's treatment were by reference with nothing that was from the source. The references were reputable though ergo trustworthy.

 

Mg can be bought from your LFS.

 

Sand will need to be replaced.

 

Lugols is coral safe. Use Lugols if cutting corals off isn't an option. And sun's are pretty hardy by the way. You could cut them off no problem. Or expose them to air. If you are worried wrap them in a moist paper towel with water from your tank. Peroxide will kill them for sure though. But will kill the coral as well.

 

Take star out of tank and donate to someone who can care for it. Or feed it. As in target feed it. Put a piece of PE mysid next to one of its arms and/or brush the arm with it until it grasps the food. It should be able to defend itself from the worms long enough to eat. Or pull it out from the tank into a bowl of tank water, feed it, the put it back.

[carbon-mantis]

Honestly the bristleworm infestation sounds like a symptom of a larger problem.

 

Beating the dead horse, but how are your water parameters, and what is your feeding schedule? What do you feed, how often, and how much are you feeding? If feeding frozen, are you draining the liquid before adding it? Bristleworms need something to eat, and while they will eat various bits of detritus, in a tank the size of yours I doubt there would be enough to support a population the size of what you have.

 

Also, you mentioned a wet dry filter. Unrelated to the bristleworms, I'd say, but it could be helping the cyanobacteria. Wet dry filters tend to churn out nitrates if you aren't staying on top of keeping it cleaned. Again, would need nitrate test readings to see about it.

 

On transferring the rock and preventing bristleworms from arriving, I highly doubt that you could keep them from ever popping up even if you proceed with a Final Solution on the ones you currently have. Tiny ones can hitchhike in on just about anything you add to the tank, and can easily hide out long enough to reproduce.

[Arkayology]

Give the serpent star away.

[Urchinhead]

Carbon-Mantis you are correct. There is a bigger systemic problem here. One that either has to do with over feeding or something dying or even possibly both.

 

Regardless the BW's can be conquered and kept from the new tank but to do so will require discipline in terms of dipping *EVERYTHING* going to the new tank.

 

Frankly were it me I would buy new uncured rock, peroxide bathe it, rinse it, dry it for 7-10 days in the sun, bathe and rinse it again, cure it in a bucket with a powerhead and heater, then put it into the new tank.

 

I would then lop off select portions of the corals I want to keep and dip them in Lugols to make sure everything is dead but the coral, put the coral in a QT tank for 10 days doing lugols dips every other day, thentransfer them to the new tank thus ensuring that nothing I don't want going into the new tank goes.

[hazmat]

I had an overpopulation of worms too (I feed my fish every day which is probably too much) and although many people will flame you when you say you want to get rid of BW's I personally don't like having them. I don't mind the small ones but when they get big they are pretty creepy.

 

What I did was take out pieces of my rock and pick off every worm I could see with some fine tipped tweezers. Or grab them out of the sand bed. I still have some bristleworms but not near what I used to have. If you do this every night the population will go down. You could also dip your rock in ReVive coral dip and that will drive the worms that you can't see out of the rock and kill them.

 

If it was me and I was starting a new tank I would use this opportunity to start fresh and do everything the right way. Get new sand, new base rock, new skimmer and then "seed" it with a piece of your old rock that has been dipped. Definitely cut your coral off the old rock. Give away the serpent star to a good home too. Better to give it away then watch it slowly die and get eaten by the bristleworms! That is so sad.

 

I know all the above is time consuming but it works. And you have a perfect opportunity since you are changing over to a new tank to really start over. I hope that helps and good luck

[oneart]

Carbon-Mantis you are correct. There is a bigger systemic problem here. One that either has to do with over feeding or something dying or even possibly both.

 

Regardless the BW's can be conquered and kept from the new tank but to do so will require discipline in terms of dipping *EVERYTHING* going to the new tank.

 

Frankly were it me I would buy new uncured rock, peroxide bathe it, rinse it, dry it for 7-10 days in the sun, bathe and rinse it again, cure it in a bucket with a powerhead and heater, then put it into the new tank.

 

I would then lop off select portions of the corals I want to keep and dip them in Lugols to make sure everything is dead but the coral, put the coral in a QT tank for 10 days doing lugols dips every other day, thentransfer them to the new tank thus ensuring that nothing I don't want going into the new tank goes.

 

THANKS everyone for your generous replies. To answer some questions... honestly, I have no idea what the levels are. The tank was well established and I had no need to check them for three years. I just did a 2 gallon water change once a week. Then grad school and I'd miss a week here and there. Then I couldn't find stubby stones for the protein skimmer and pulled it, just after I'd added a fourth fish (had two watchman gobies, one Catalina goby and a yellow-tailed damsel - I have since lost the Catalina). All mistakes I know. I cringe at having to start over, re-establish the tank. I have so many nice copods right now, but I think it may be the only way. Also, all I have at this point is a sun coral, and mushrooms, and until I get out of school (in a year and half) I'm not getting any more corals other than maybe a few more mushrooms. Speaking of which, I have a nice hairy mushroom (I think it's a hairy mushroom) that is half on a coral and half on the back of my tank. Since I'm breaking down the tank I need to get him off the wall. Does anyone know who to do this without killing him?

[hazmat]

For the mushroom I think if you take a razor blade and scrape it off the glass you should be fine. Mushrooms are almost like a pest....you can't get rid of them even if u want to.

[oneart]

For the mushroom I think if you take a razor blade and scrape it off the glass you should be fine. Mushrooms are almost like a pest....you can't get rid of them even if u want to.

 

Thanks! I'm glad a have a way to get him off. I've had him for five years and did not want to kill him. I've been trying to "nudge" him to move to a rock, but it doesn't seem to be working.

[oneart]

Carbon-Mantis you are correct. There is a bigger systemic problem here. One that either has to do with over feeding or something dying or even possibly both.

 

Regardless the BW's can be conquered and kept from the new tank but to do so will require discipline in terms of dipping *EVERYTHING* going to the new tank.

 

Frankly were it me I would buy new uncured rock, peroxide bathe it, rinse it, dry it for 7-10 days in the sun, bathe and rinse it again, cure it in a bucket with a powerhead and heater, then put it into the new tank.

 

I would then lop off select portions of the corals I want to keep and dip them in Lugols to make sure everything is dead but the coral, put the coral in a QT tank for 10 days doing lugols dips every other day, thentransfer them to the new tank thus ensuring that nothing I don't want going into the new tank goes.

 

I appreciate all the great info I've gotten on getting rid of bristle worms and now am finally (graduate semester ended and am moving to a new apt this week) am about to set up a new tank with new live rock this week. I want to keep the coral I have and would like to do either a magnesium chloride dip or a lugol's dip to drive the worms out of the rock, but am unsure about where to get magnesium chloride or lugol's. Can I use drug store lugols (that is if I can find it)? Or what magnesium chloride is called at the LFS? Would this be the stuff? http://www.fosterandsmithaquatics.com/prod...87&cmpid=sc Thanks!