thecowkid Posted February 10, 2011 Share Posted February 10, 2011 All said is good sound information. Thanks to all for probably saving someones life. I should say this as I should have said it earlier about the grounding probe. I only use on when I am doing intank work. As the statement of it suppling a ground IS true and will/can cause issues if its left in place all the time. Its always wise to find out what the problem is and fix that rather than just fixin stuff until the problems goes away. All you know by doing that is that its fixed for now. And those fixed for now solutions will fail and thats with all heck comes apart. As Gse1sw has pointed out differnt components in lights can/will fail and the light will still fire. Sounds crazy but it will do it. I'm betting on a ballast is going to ground and is causing the leakage. Gse1sw you sure made me feel stupid. I realized just how much electrical knowledge I have lost over the years. Dont use it you loose it. So correct me if need be. I'd hate to get someone hurt with my forgetfullness. Link to comment
Rufessor Posted February 10, 2011 Share Posted February 10, 2011 Just a quick reply as I think this is a very good discussion. And a VERY dangerous situation. I looked into this myself when I put my tank in. I am not an electrician but have very extensive experience rewiring homes, I simply replaced my outlet with GFCI. Since it seems like you have not messed with electrical wiring, I don't think working on an outlet serving a large water tank is the place to start... so just ask the apartment to do it or hire an electrician. Its about 15 minutes for them to do this. Or- as you stated, purchase a GFCI strip. IMHO the strip might be less quality than the outlet and is for sure a LOT more money. I cannot imagine the apartment would have an issue, if your allowed to keep tanks. Just explain that this is a safety item (for you and for the complex) and ask if you can pay for the parts. Its really not a big deal. They are a required item by electrical code for any outlet close to water so your kitchen and bath should have at least one (protecting the rest I hope). Its not a strange request, its safe. Finally, and your doing this, but don't stop until you fix the root cause. With GFCI you will keep from killing yourself, but if its sporadic of something happens while your out and you have GFCI, the circuit will trip shutting down your tank.. so please don't just install GFCI and give up. That might kill your tank but save your life. One question I pose... to the true electrician or anyone else.... Would an Arc Fault Breaker be worth installing on the circuit for a tank?? I know they are now required in some areas for lighting circuits in bedrooms etc... Is it true that GFCI will always catch this and how are they different.... Link to comment
uwwmatt Posted February 11, 2011 Author Share Posted February 11, 2011 Just a quick reply as I think this is a very good discussion. And a VERY dangerous situation. My plan for now is just to leave the T5 unplugged. When I get my meter I will see if I can narrow down the problem and make sure it is indeed coming from the T5. If it is I will probably just leave it unplugged for good and look into new lighting options. You bring up a good point about the GFCI triggering while I am gone and having my tank crash. I think I will set up a system where all but a single backup heater and maybe the skimmer on the normal outlet and the rest of the stuff on the GFCI. That way if it triggers and the temps drop my backup heater will turn on. I also have a battery back up air pump that would trigger in the result of a power loss. Link to comment
nibor Posted February 11, 2011 Share Posted February 11, 2011 The T5 ballast will be hidden inside the pendant if the power chord runs dirctly there from the socket. GFCIs are not capable of detecting arcs. A GFCI compares the current flowing through the live conductor to that flowing through the neutral. If the difference between these currents is greater than the rating of the GFCI (5mA, 30mA....) the breaker trips. It detects ground faults, current lost from the circuit to ground, perhaps through you. It protects against electric shock. An arc fault circuit breaker detects arcs. Imagine we have a short circuit between the live and neutral wires in a cable where the outer insulation is still in good condition. Current flow through the live and neutral is still equal so there is no ground fault and a GFCI will not trip. There will however be arcing at the short circuit (sparking basically). This causes heat build up and could well set fire to the cable insulation. An arc fault breaker protects against fire. Without an arc fault breaker, the only safeguard against this is the short reaching the point that it draws so much current it trips the breaker for the circuit by exceeding its current rating (20A, 30A...depending on the rating). Link to comment
uwwmatt Posted February 11, 2011 Author Share Posted February 11, 2011 So the T5 has 2 individual switches one for each bulb. When I bought this light I never used the t5s because I was to lazy to buy new bulbs. Then a few weeks ago I got two new t5 bulbs. The back one blew out about a week later. I got a replacement thinking it was a faulty bulb a few days ago and installed it and it blew the very next day. So I am assuming this problem with the lights blowing is directly related to this whole issue. Would it be possible that keeping that switch off would stop the electricity leak? Link to comment
nibor Posted February 11, 2011 Share Posted February 11, 2011 It is normal that the live is switched so yes it is possible, unless the fault is at or before the switch in the circuit. I would still advise against it however, you may be aware of the issue but others may not be. You know your household and the degree of risk, it's your call. Link to comment
gse1sw Posted February 11, 2011 Share Posted February 11, 2011 Thecowkid, I didn't mean to make you feel stupid at all that's not my way. Matt, I didn't know that you lived in an apartment. If you have a good landlord, they wouldn't mind if you install the GFCI outlets and installing them is not very difficult as long as you have access to the circuit breaker that feeds the exisisting outlet. Since you already purchased the GFCI adapter I would feel safe saying that would do fine. Your plan for preventing a tank crash sounds good too. I am only 7 days into this hobby and didn't think about it the way others have. GFCI's can cause problems as well as save a life. 2 years ago my basement flooded because the GFCI the sump pump was plugged into tripped while I was out of town. I am not to sure where the ballast is for the T5, not all lights need a ballast. What is a T5 ? Rufessor I will have to look into it to answer your question about the arc fault breaker. What I can tell you right now is that Circuit breakers are designed to protect circuits and equipment. and GFCI's are designed to protect people. Link to comment
nibor Posted February 11, 2011 Share Posted February 11, 2011 5/8 inch diameter fluo tubes. Link to comment
gse1sw Posted February 11, 2011 Share Posted February 11, 2011 5/8 inch diameter fluo tubes. Hi thanks, You did a great job answering the GFCI vs. arc fault breaker question. I was off reading a website about lamps trying to learn about Matt's set up. Here is a cool link for anyone interested. http://www.lrc.rpi.edu/programs/nlpip/ligh...s/lat5/pc1a.asp Matt I would suggest that you tear apart the fixture and see what is in there. Now that I have read up and educated myself, I know there is a ballast and according to your drawing, It has to be inside the fixture. did you buy this fixture new or used? if it was used it is possible that someone put the wrong ballast in there. I don't know any other way it would blow a new bulb that fast. Link to comment
uwwmatt Posted February 11, 2011 Author Share Posted February 11, 2011 Hi thanks, You did a great job answering the GFCI vs. arc fault breaker question. I was off reading a website about lamps trying to learn about Matt's set up. Here is a cool link for anyone interested.http://www.lrc.rpi.edu/programs/nlpip/ligh...s/lat5/pc1a.asp Matt I would suggest that you tear apart the fixture and see what is in there. Now that I have read up and educated myself, I know there is a ballast and according to your drawing, It has to be inside the fixture. did you buy this fixture new or used? if it was used it is possible that someone put the wrong ballast in there. I don't know any other way it would blow a new bulb that fast. I bought the whole set up used. When the original guy bought it, it came as a package deal from Cadlight Aquariums. They no longer make this model however..(probably because it electrocutes people ) Here is a link to the thread about my tank. (same one that is in my signature) http://www.nano-reef.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=247444 I have tomorrow off so I can take it apart then, however I won't be getting that meter I ordered until Monday so I don't know how good it would be. Could it be that the wiring is crossed on the way out of the ballast before it connects to the individual bulb fixture? I know the last bulb was blown, but I never actually tried this most recent one on the working fixture. It is possible that this bulb is still working and maybe something shook loose and that is why it won't fire up. I will test the bulb out on the working T5 fixture tomorrow. Link to comment
thecowkid Posted February 11, 2011 Share Posted February 11, 2011 Not a problem. I wasnt accusing you. It just made me realize what I had forgot. Link to comment
uwwmatt Posted February 15, 2011 Author Share Posted February 15, 2011 I picked up the multimeter, now how do I use it correctly? I read the instructions but they were not helpful to me. Link to comment
gse1sw Posted February 15, 2011 Share Posted February 15, 2011 I picked up the multimeter, now how do I use it correctly? I read the instructions but they were not helpful to me. Matt, sorry for the delay My internet has been down since Friday. I put together a PDF for you to use as a guide to use the meter. If it doesn't come through I can email it to you. I see after I uploaded it that there were a few words missing from the first text box. It should end with the words "setting you chose" Equus_3320.pdf Link to comment
uwwmatt Posted February 15, 2011 Author Share Posted February 15, 2011 Matt, sorry for the delay My internet has been down since Friday. I put together a PDF for you to use as a guide to use the meter. If it doesn't come through I can email it to you.I see after I uploaded it that there were a few words missing from the first text box. It should end with the words "setting you chose" With only 9 posts you are already my favorite member on these forums. I'll give it a go when I get home from work. Thanks. Link to comment
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