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Can anyone tell me why you shouldn't use bioballs


fishez4alivin

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fishez4alivin

Ok, first of all, before you answer this thread, with something you have heard of....please look and see that I have been in this hobby for a little while, and have HEARD those same things. I always hear people say, get rid of those bioballs, but is that because you had 1st hand experience and crashed a tank? Or is it just babble that keeps getting passed from thread to thread, with no real evidence. The reason I ask, is because I ran a couple of tanks with bio balls, and as long as you removed them and shook off the loose organics, they worked fine.

 

So my question is, if I haven't had a bad experience with them, why do I read everyone say they are a curse? I just took down a tank that I used them in, an Aquasystems tank from TruVu, and I had thousands of dollars in coral in that tank, and it was only 12G.

 

A club member in my local club asked a question about a skimmer she was using. One of our members said to get rid of the blue plastic filtration media, because it will cause failure. I say it's BS, it's needed in that skimmer to break down any micro bubbles entering the tank. As long as she cleans them out, what harm can they have?

 

My other question I have about replacing bioballs with rock rubble? Who came up with that idea. What's the difference between rock rubble and bio balls? Bio balls are basically an artifical substitute for rock, correct? Having slots in them to create more surface area for better biological filtration. To me, rock rubble is more of a pain to keep clean...

 

Now if you have crap in your back chambers/sump/hob sump etc...wouldnt you have those same things in your display? And really is it going to make any difference if you have that crap accumulating back there, if you are using bio balls or rock rubble?

 

I would like to see anyone who had a tank crash caused by bio balls, and if so, was it the bio balls or was it because poor husbandry, meaning poor maintenace practices, or overload on the biomass....too many fish, too much feeding for a small tank.

 

I bet that no one has ever had a tank crash because of bioballs, so if that's the case, why do people always say to remove them? Is it another hobby myth, that has no merit...

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I have never heard of a tank crashing from them. But I have heard of high nitrates from crap collecting in the crevices. I had a buddy that took his out after running them 6 months and it dropped his nitrates in half. Live rock rubble does the same thing back there collects crap.But personally I don't think it is a problem if you take them out and rinse them say once a month.

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well i dont think it is directly because of bioballs but i think they help... Not because of the bio balls but because like you said people not taking them out and cleaning them... because if you think about it it will eventually build up organics and nitrates and eventually cause problems. I do not think that either one are really needed rubble rock or bioballs i think either one you are using is just looking to cause problems...

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Haha... good post ;P

 

Anyways, I'll have to agree with you on this. Equipment doesn't cause a tank to crash, only bad decisions or poor maintenance.

 

Now going back to the topic of bio-balls, 15 years ago a buddy and I started a SW tank (huge failure BTW) and we used bio-balls in the filtration. I can say 100% that it wasn't the bio-balls that caused a crash. I think the original idea behind them was to be used in a wet/dry or trickle filter where they attempted to provide more surface area than other media. This is a good thing, right? IMO it depends. Yes they trap particulate organic matter, and yes you need to clean them out frequently or else waste accumulates. Whether that would actually cause a tank to crash I believe has not been proven. A regular water change routine even without touching your bio-balls (or similar media) for a long time should be plenty to offset any build up.

 

Same thing with LR rubble. I agree that rubble can almost be worse in some cases. Again it just comes down to surface area.

 

Finally, I would make the argument that neither bio-balls, or rubble, or other filtration systems are even necessary. A reef tank by it's nature should contain it's own filtration system. All that is needed is sufficient LR and plenty of flow. If either of those is lacking (for whatever reason - maybe a minimalist rock scape) then additional filtration can be considered using whatever medium you choose. As long as one adheres to a regular tank maintenance schedule I don't think bio-balls are bad at all.

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fishez4alivin

That's what I think too...thanks for the replies guys, I just don't get why people say to use rock rubble instead of bioballs, when in fact poor maintenance will lead to high nitrates, not the bioballs. The reason I used them was to make up for the minimalist approach to my rockwork. As well as to see if the bioball myth had merit...lol

 

On the Aquasystems tank, there is a rack that holds the bio balls, and it was easy to remove and shake off...then I could siphon the bottom of all the chambers easily.

 

Bottom line is, you can use rock rubble or bio balls, but you can't forget about cleaning it up back there.

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Same thing for any filtration medium. I don't know of a filtration system that never needs cleaning (hmmm... maybe I should invent one!). Even when using nothing other than LR I always take a baster and blow stuff off or siphon off the rocks.

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fishez4alivin

I agree that in most cases you shouldn't have rubble or bio balls back there, and that the back chambers of an AIO are good for only three things....temp probe, ATO sensors, and thermometer, as a matter of fact, I think that is the only reason to buy an AIO tank, to hide those pieces of equipment.

 

Same thing for any filtration medium. I don't know of a filtration system that never needs cleaning (hmmm... maybe I should invent one!). Even when using nothing other than LR I always take a baster and blow stuff off or siphon off the rocks.

#1 reason I think people have algae problems with tanks of maturity. Instead of having less algae, they have more, or the same amount. The best baster is a MJ1200 with mod, and 1 1/2 inch PVC, it's an excellent tank blower...

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fishez4alivin

Anyone else want to chime in? How about the people who are telling all the noobs to get rid of the bio balls? Love to hear why they tell them to get rid of them and to replace it with live rock rubble.

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nano_keeper30
Anyone else want to chime in? How about the people who are telling all the noobs to get rid of the bio balls? Love to hear why they tell them to get rid of them and to replace it with live rock rubble.

 

Well I am doing a bit of experiment with this also. I have two frag tanks I am running pretty much the same wet/dry sump on. Marineland Acrylic Sumps to be exact. One has the factory industrial biowheel, the other I have removed the biowheel and replaced with liverock rubble.

 

My goal is to see how much nitrate builds up on one system vs the other left un-touched for a period of time,

 

Now I have an investment in these tanks, so Im not going to do any high numbers I do want to see which gets up their first.

 

Personally I need a bio-media as I do not run liverock in my frag tanks (causes to many problems).

 

Personally I think the biowheel is gonna win do to the fact that it is consistantly being rotated in moving water. Yes there is debre that falls off and settles to the bottom of the bio chamber but I beleive that material will be broken down much faster than it would be just sitting on the media.

 

Only time will tell, I'll keep you updated

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I'm pretty much a noob. I maintained a tank a few years back, but didn't set it up myself. Opinions on filtration have changed quite a bit since then, so getting back into the hobby after a few years off is like learning all over again.

 

Back then people were all about the rubble. I was planning on going that route, but most of the current info I was reading is telling people not to use rubble.

 

I took out the bioballs and ceramic media, and replaced with a bit of chaeto and a bag of chemi-pure elite. I do think bioballs work, but it all comes down to proper maintenance. I personally chose the chaeto to help eliminate the nutrients rather then just trap trap them. I still give my chaeto a little bath sometimes, but it's a little more forgiving than keeping up with balls or LRRubble.

 

Don't look at my response as an argument for or against bioballs, but as an observation from a noob that has been researching current theories of rubble and bioballs.

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I'm using just the ceramic cylinder things with the hole in the middle that comes with the fluval canister filter's

 

I have a few small handfuls in my canister along with carbon I also have half a handful in 2 phosban reactors

 

no skimmer/refuge/sump

 

1 lbs/G L.R

 

29G

 

I'm not a fan of that pillow casing stuff or filter sock's

 

I change when the ditrtus in the phosban reactor gets too dirty looking usually 1 month max or sooner if I moved to a new place or did too much feeding etc

Edited by Phyto4life
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fishez4alivin

Personally I use filter socks, because I have a bare bottom and a ton of flow, so the detrius gets suspended and trapped in my socks, which I swap every 5-7 days. The pillow casing is good for the initial days after you set up, catches the silt caused from the sand etc....but that needs to be changed out all the time too.

 

I think the bottom line is that no matter what filter media you use, you must service it all, or else you will create a trap which can cause many problems.

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fishez4alivin
I'm pretty much a noob. I maintained a tank a few years back, but didn't set it up myself. Opinions on filtration have changed quite a bit since then, so getting back into the hobby after a few years off is like learning all over again.

 

Back then people were all about the rubble. I was planning on going that route, but most of the current info I was reading is telling people not to use rubble.

 

I took out the bioballs and ceramic media, and replaced with a bit of chaeto and a bag of chemi-pure elite. I do think bioballs work, but it all comes down to proper maintenance. I personally chose the chaeto to help eliminate the nutrients rather then just trap trap them. I still give my chaeto a little bath sometimes, but it's a little more forgiving than keeping up with balls or LRRubble.

 

Don't look at my response as an argument for or against bioballs, but as an observation from a noob that has been researching current theories of rubble and bioballs.

 

 

Not at all, I want to see everyone's views on the subject. I know that with chaeto, if it's growing that it is actively removing nutrients, however, you need to trim it back so it can keep growing/exporting those nutrients. When I kept chaeto, not only did the algae itself remove nutrients, but the critters that live amongst the mass do too. But if I let it pack my chamber, to where it wouldn't tumble/grow, that the nutrient export efficiency was hampered. All it took was a trimming of it, and it made a huge difference in its effectiveness.

 

Well I am doing a bit of experiment with this also. I have two frag tanks I am running pretty much the same wet/dry sump on. Marineland Acrylic Sumps to be exact. One has the factory industrial biowheel, the other I have removed the biowheel and replaced with liverock rubble.

 

My goal is to see how much nitrate builds up on one system vs the other left un-touched for a period of time,

 

Now I have an investment in these tanks, so Im not going to do any high numbers I do want to see which gets up their first.

 

Personally I need a bio-media as I do not run liverock in my frag tanks (causes to many problems).

 

Personally I think the biowheel is gonna win do to the fact that it is consistantly being rotated in moving water. Yes there is debre that falls off and settles to the bottom of the bio chamber but I beleive that material will be broken down much faster than it would be just sitting on the media.

 

Only time will tell, I'll keep you updated

 

Sounds interesting, I think that each will cause problems eventually, if left unserviced. I agree with you that the wheel will probably last the longest with out servicing for the exact reasons you give.

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IMHO - I think less is more. I think the less people have to do on a regular / weekly / monthly basis to maintain water chemistry the better. More often you hear about people who do not do regular tank maintenance - they go weeks sometimes a month or more between water changes. I have to believe that they are not changing out media or rinsing bio balls / rubble either.

 

I typically recommend use of neither bio balls or LR rubble. My first tank, a BC29, had a center compartment full of rubble for the first 6 months. After losing a fish in the rear compartment (pre-fish saver days) and having to pull everything out - I was disgusted to see how much stuff accumulated back there. My first thought was "this can't be good". I immediately started the process to remove that rubble slowely over time. Luckily I was doing a lot of fragging at the time and rubble worked out great for mounting frags to.

 

Something that I saw that seemed like a pretty good idea was to insert the bio balls or rubble into a small onion bag - one of those net sacks like you see in the grocery store. That way when you did a water change you could easily pull the bag and rinse the contents.

 

But in the end - the rock in the display sould be more the enough filtration for the tank. I've also read that the smaller pieces of rubble don't offer much in the way of filtration since there isn't much surface area or depth for the needed bacteria to colonize. So what's the point?

 

I think that the space is better used as a fuge or a fuge in conjunction with a media rack. (insert plug for StevieT here) I've told of my experience with 3 tanks running with different equiptment on each a few times now. One with a skimmer, one with a fuge and one with only the LR and flow - the tank with the fuge is by far my healthiest tank.

 

Again, this isn't from a source, book or anyone elses advice - just my personal experience and observations.

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fishez4alivin
IMHO - I think less is more. I think the less people have to do on a regular / weekly / monthly basis to maintain water chemistry the better. More often you hear about people who do not do regular tank maintenance - they go weeks sometimes a month or more between water changes. I have to believe that they are not changing out media or rinsing bio balls / rubble either.

 

I typically recommend use of neither bio balls or LR rubble. My first tank, a BC29, had a center compartment full of rubble for the first 6 months. After losing a fish in the rear compartment (pre-fish saver days) and having to pull everything out - I was disgusted to see how much stuff accumulated back there. My first thought was "this can't be good". I immediately started the process to remove that rubble slowely over time. Luckily I was doing a lot of fragging at the time and rubble worked out great for mounting frags to.

 

Something that I saw that seemed like a pretty good idea was to insert the bio balls or rubble into a small onion bag - one of those net sacks like you see in the grocery store. That way when you did a water change you could easily pull the bag and rinse the contents.

 

But in the end - the rock in the display sould be more the enough filtration for the tank. I've also read that the smaller pieces of rubble don't offer much in the way of filtration since there isn't much surface area or depth for the needed bacteria to colonize. So what's the point?

 

I think that the space is better used as a fuge or a fuge in conjunction with a media rack. (insert plug for StevieT here) I've told of my experience with 3 tanks running with different equiptment on each a few times now. One with a skimmer, one with a fuge and one with only the LR and flow - the tank with the fuge is by far my healthiest tank.

 

Again, this isn't from a source, book or anyone elses advice - just my personal experience and observations.

 

I totally agree with the less is more statement. I also understand how someone who is new to the hobby wants to maximize the tank to it's full potential. Whether it is to pack it full of coral, or to maximize the amount of fish in the tank. I know with carbon dosing, that people are able to keep way more then they should in their tanks. I know because I did it for over a year. But soon the attraction wears off, and you either need to simplify your hobby, or you get out. Unfortunately, I see a lot of people get out.

 

When it comes to AIO tanks, I totally agree that those chambers are not best suited for much more than to hide thermometers, temp probs, ATO float etc....UNLESS you have an easily removed media rack....again the StevieT rack, or like what I had in the Aquasystems, which was a larger three shelved rack. The Biocube 14 I had, was horrible for trapping detrius in that middle chamber, so I used filter floss and had to change it out every few days, depending on how much I fed.

 

The idea of putting the stuff in a sack sounds interesting....it would make it easier to remove and to clean the bottom of those chambers. It would also prevent any solids from accumulating on the rubble/bioballs, etc....

 

Really the best AIO would be an area which would always be the same level, for temp probes, float switches, thermometers, and for placing tubing for auto dosing. And the second chamber would be the return pump. That way you have plenty of space to place all the equipment you dont want in your display. Because with a lightly stocked nano, with a couple of gobies, you can have a totally sweet tank, that would be trouble free. When we over stock the tanks, and have to come up with additional ways of filtration, we find ourselves using more than we need to.

Edited by fishez4alivin
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People (myself included) tell noobs to get rid of their bioballs because they are still fresh to the hobby and don't have a handle on how or how often to maintain their tank. For new reefers, bioballs cause more harm than good the majority of the time.

 

That being said, in the hands of a seasoned and capable aquarist bioballs can be incorporated without those downsides, unless you count the increased maintenance. But honestly, what benefit do bioballs give that cannot be achieved with other filtration types less prone to nitrate issues? Subversiveness for the sake of subversiveness is not the way to advance the hobby.

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fishez4alivin
People (myself included) tell noobs to get rid of their bioballs because they are still fresh to the hobby and don't have a handle on how or how often to maintain their tank. For new reefers, bioballs cause more harm than good the majority of the time.

 

That being said, in the hands of a seasoned and capable aquarist bioballs can be incorporated without those downsides, unless you count the increased maintenance. But honestly, what benefit do bioballs give that cannot be achieved with other filtration types less prone to nitrate issues? Subversiveness for the sake of subversiveness is not the way to advance the hobby.

 

 

My main question was why I see people say to remove the bio balls and replace it with rock rubble. Which IMO, are the same thing, and can lead to the same problems. I see more people recommend swapping the stuff out, then to just get rid of it, and not replace it.

 

That said, why would this thread be considered subversive? I just wanted to know why people recommend doing something, when in fact it's just replacing one for another. Wouldn't it be better to tell a person what the bio balls are for, and what kinds of additional maintenance is needed to use them. Also, wouldn't it be better to tell them that fish are the main waste producers in a tank, and that the more fish you want, the more maintenance you will need to perform.

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Based on your first post, I answered your first question. In regard to the second question, you would have to find someone who suggests the replacement of bioballs with rubble and ask them.

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fishez4alivin
Based on your first post, I answered your first question. In regard to the second question, you would have to find someone who suggests the replacement of bioballs with rubble and ask them.

Gotcha, thanks

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nano_keeper30
Gotcha, thanks

 

I think that people recommend replacing bioballs with rubble due to the fact that

 

A.) They hear it more times than none on here and are just passing the buck

 

and

 

B.) They think that there is some magic to liverock vs some other media, be it the critters on the rock that may eat excess nutrients or pods present on the rock will multiply and have a place to hide and thrive. These are just a few of the examples that I have heard.

 

One true fact though is that if you are cycling your tank, using establised rubble will indeed seed your tank and cycle it a lot faster. However this can be done with any established biomedia so it really dont hold any groumd.

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I seeded a nano, using a return pump, heater, and the sponge from a sponge filter that I had in an established tank....lol I added those pieces of equipment to a tank with dead rock and dead sand.

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I was at the LFS and I started asking one of the guys there about removing the bioballs, ceramics, and sponges. I told him that I was replacing it with a Mediarack (from StevieT), and going to run the Purigen / Chemi-Pure Elite / Poly Filter Floss setup. He looked at me like I had two heads and asked.. WHY? Granted, these guys at the LFS are all about large tanks. They run a 1200 gal, and numerous other large setups. Nano isn't something they want people to go to, as they know it's a bit more fickle.

 

Enter this thread, and its relevance because I didn't have a good answer other than it was easy to change and clean the media.

 

Being that my tank came with 6 or so balls and a bag of ceramic, I'm wondering if I should leave a portion of these, or simply take everything out.

 

So, I'm listening to this thread carefully!

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He looked at me like I had two heads and asked.. WHY? Granted, these guys at the LFS are all about large tanks. They run a 1200 gal, and numerous other large setups. Nano isn't something they want people to go to, as they know it's a bit more fickle.

 

 

More like they dont want them to get nanos because they know people who have them dont spend as much money....

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I used bioballs for several months in my first 100 gallon system. They worked fine, but I had to rinse half of them at a time to make sure all of the crap was rinsed out of it. I don't use rubble because in essence it will do the same thing. Bio-balls could work as long as you maintain your schedule of regularly cleaning them. That's in my experience, but I like not having to rinse them out during water changes.

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