LED Aesthetics: What do you really think of your color?

[blasterman]

From an evolution perspective I think one format that's been saddly ignored in this discussion has been 3-up and 4-up LED stars. Given most have a wide variety of optics available I'm surprised the DIY community isn't jumping on them more often. Plus, the close proximity of the LEDs on the stars virtually eliminates disco color issues and invites experimentation with different colors. While I'd like to see fewer/higer powered emitters aka Bridgelux, optics remain a stopping point along with the lack of high powered RB options.

 

Given 3-up options have such a strong potential, I've been pondering what three colors would be best suited. My intuition is that RB:CW:SB (standard blue), or RB:NW:SB (or cyan) have solid potential for evolving beyond the typical RB:CW mix with the flexibility of satisfying all tastes. Right now I'm in the process of moving, but once things settle I'll be trying these combinations in a bit more detail.

 

Oh yeah...if we were having this discussion in the DIY forum on RC we'd all be banned

[Machupicchu]

Oh yeah...if we were having this discussion in the DIY forum on RC we'd all be banned

 

 

Yeeeaaa it was feelin a little biased over there so i brought it over here to get some more(better) info and opinions.

 

Good stuff. I will return to listening quietly in the corner and absorbing...

[evilc66]

From an evolution perspective I think one format that's been saddly ignored in this discussion has been 3-up and 4-up LED stars. Given most have a wide variety of optics available I'm surprised the DIY community isn't jumping on them more often. Plus, the close proximity of the LEDs on the stars virtually eliminates disco color issues and invites experimentation with different colors. While I'd like to see fewer/higer powered emitters aka Bridgelux, optics remain a stopping point along with the lack of high powered RB options.

 

Given 3-up options have such a strong potential, I've been pondering what three colors would be best suited. My intuition is that RB:CW:SB (standard blue), or RB:NW:SB (or cyan) have solid potential for evolving beyond the typical RB:CW mix with the flexibility of satisfying all tastes. Right now I'm in the process of moving, but once things settle I'll be trying these combinations in a bit more detail.

 

Oh yeah...if we were having this discussion in the DIY forum on RC we'd all be banned

 

They would be awesome if companies like Carclo, Khatod, Fraen, et al would produce optics wider than 40 degrees. That's the biggest hold up in my mind. A 60 degree optic would be a perfect middle ground that would be used far more than any other option.

[doctaq]

hmm, what about reflectors?

[DaveFason]

Clive and Blaster. I cant wait for you to see my three up boards I have being made. They are 1" squares that can either be ran separate, 2 together and all three together. Just need to add a small resistor. I have them being matched up with Khatod optics that should be around 45-50 degree's. Mounting is will two #2 screws.

 

Three Rebels,

42 - NW, 2 RB

8 - NW, RB, Cyan

 

I'll post a photo here tonight. I should have them next week. I'll need to order some more in 2-3 weeks and if you want some let me know. I can do almost any combo. I'm also working on seeing what it would take to make a CW without the yellow.

 

-Dave

[blasterman]

They would be awesome if companies like Carclo, Khatod, Fraen, et al would produce optics wider than 40 degrees.

 

Yeah, I noticed that, hmm. The Aqua Illumination fixture looks like it's using 'Cute' series optics for their 3-ups, but the widest I found for those was 20degrees. Seems pretty darn narrow for the AI, so maybe it's something else. Obviously XP-G based optics are going to have wider options, but we're SOL for any color other than white.

 

For the end user you can always sand the front of optics to give them a a wider spread with minimal light loss. Just use really fine grit paper and use light strokes to frost the lenses a bit more.

 

Reflectors: Work great with LEDs with some minor modifications. Matter of fact, I've thought about designing a 'louvre' system where you can adjust the angle of them per taste and change your light angles. Plus, reflectors help mix colors more than optics, although optics work better for higher pendant heights. I still think reflectors are the best option for bigger, longer tanks where LEDs can be centered in a narrow row. I was playing with a Bridgelux C1202 last night and found it takes about six RB XR-Es to keep up with the big bad-boy, along with a dark pari of sungless to keep from toasting my eyes. Reflectors are so far the only way to mix everything together with that big emitter.

 

I'm also working on seeing what it would take to make a CW without the yellow.

 

Remember, it's 'green' that we want to try to reduce before yellow/amber. The amber component of cool-white LEDs is very, very low to begin with which is why they have such high efficiency. I'd just like to see an LED designed with reduced green phosphor if for anything raw curiousity.

 

Another color combo I've been working with is those 10watt '445's mixed with a single neutral white at an amp. Color is great, and intensity is incredible. However, there's something in the middle that's missing, and it's not RB. It's either cyan or regular blue, and I'm ordering some of both to see what fills in the gap better. So far, those orange zoas I shot above are a very good litmus because they're a color that's tough to light up without causing other issues. If I can get those blazing good and bright without turning my tank into a bottle of windex you'll hear me screaming.

[MDreefer]

^^very interested in the results of your tests, what do you think of the two 445s with two NWs in between, and either two SBs or an SB and a RB above and below the whites? What current were you running the 445s at when you got good color in the above test?

[DaveFason]

blaster - If I could get my hands on Rebel Blues that are 445 would you think NW/RB/445 B would be a nice combo?

 

Its amazing how much info is in 6 pages compared to the mess over at RC. Love it.

 

-Dave

[evilc66]

You probably wouldn't see a huge difference between that and a W,RB,RB setup. 10nm at this point isn't going to make a drastic difference in visual appearance considering that both would overlap fairly closely. Also take into account that the lower you go on the wavelength scale, the less sensitive yours eyes become to it. Blasterman and I were talking recently about the 445nm LEDs in a fixture he is working on, and the 445nm LEDs don't provide enough visibly additive blue to the mix as expected.

 

Now, from a growth potential perspective, it can help a little bit, as you are spreading the spectral energy over a slightly broader area of one of the photosynthetic peaks. An LED closer to 420nm would be better for that purpose though, but are very rare.

[DaveFason]

Thanks Clive. I'll have my three up squares Monday. Whoop! Let the testing begin.

 

I'll also have my "Death Star" unit almost complete. 48 Rebels on a 4.5x4.5 square.

 

-Dave

[jfarabaugh]

Thanks Clive. I'll have my three up squares Monday. Whoop! Let the testing begin.

 

I'll also have my "Death Star" unit almost complete. 48 Rebels on a 4.5x4.5 square.

 

-Dave

 

 

You people and your lack of pictures. I want to see it now!

I dont care what state it is in.

 

I take it liquid nitrogen is involved with this for cooling?

 

The interesting thing about all the developments just within this thread is that we are going to have to come up with different methods of driving them. As the standards methods are not going to cut it?

[evilc66]

Maybe. Maybe not. It's all going to be dependant on how many colors end up getting used to get the end result, and how many of those colors can be grouped together with little to no ill effects. Obviously, whites of different color temperatures can be grouped on a single driver, as well as different blues. The seperate ones, if they end up being necessary would be the cyan and red. All that would be required there is just a lower current supply for those. At that point, we need to see if any one color should be coupled linearly to another so it would be easy to adjust for dawn/dusk effects. A lot more testing needs to happen before we find that happy middle ground.

[beeker]

i don't care about Dawn/Dusk effect

 

My tank is 27 inches tall i want all the PAR i can get so dimming isn't nesscessary for my setup

 

IMO

 

A combo of 1 cool white, 1 neutral white, 1 royal blue, 1 cool blue and 1 cyan would be a great blend, this is assuming your house all the LEDs in a PAR38 style bulb

 

or even if it was on a board 2 cool white, 2 neutral white, 2 royal blue, 2 cool blue and a 1 cyan would be a good setup

 

or 2 cool white, 2 neutral white, 3 royal blue, 2 cool blue and 1 cyan would work out well

 

this covers all spectrums and would make it so the cyan wouldn't be overpowering or the dominate color but it would still be there

[lohitha]

Interesting topic. Evaluating light in air is one thing and in salt water is another thing. To my knowledge, red light does not penetrate salt water that well. True that we are talking about inches here and not meters. But, not all colors penetrate salt water equally. Actinic blue perhaps penetrate better than any other color.

[beeker]

lohitha, with optics and driven at enough amperage the LED's have far better penetration than a MH or T5 setup does

 

this is a huge benefit for a tank as tall as mine when i'm trying to atleast get about 100 or more PAR at the bottom of my tank allowing me to keep clams and otther LPS, i'm happy to say the led perform and have great PAR

 

the main thing i want to solve is the few sps pieces i have that lack color, it is because there is a spectrum that is missing from the current led setups, i love Royal blue, Cool blue, neutral white and cool white, but i do think 1 or 2 different colors added couldn't hurt anything and would allow people to find out what might be missing

 

 

if i had the ability to put some cyan over my tank and see it's effects i would but at this moment i don't have the money to do so and i don't think Cree makes a cyan led so i wouldn't be able to get 1 made to fit my setup at the moment that is the only issue

[blasterman]

what do you think of the two 445s with two NWs in between, and either two SBs or an SB and a RB above and below the whites? What current were you running the 445s at when you got good color in the above test?

 

The 445s worked ok with standard cool-whites, but anybody who's found the standard CW+RB mix to be a bit sterile looking would likely find this mix more so. The 445's being deeper in color than RB's only exacerbated the color issues many of are griping about, and it got worse the brighter I turned things up which fooled me. So, maybe I'm just being fussy, but when I combined the big 445s with a cool-white Cree and then a Bridgelux and turned them up at the right ratio I just saw the same issue this thread was created to fix, except a tad bit worse. Some LEDs guys wouldn't notice the difference and might actually like the more violet look of the 445s.

 

When I mixed neutrals with the 445's I got lots of purple actinic and the tank looked like it was stacked with actinic and sunset T5's. Adding a standard blue (cyanish) emitter *should* make it all come together, but this is intuition right now. Originally when I saw some higher end LED lights incorporate two different colors of blue I thought it was a marketing gimmick, but now I see they might be on to something. I have a some SB's coming and will know very quickly if they fill the gap between the 445s and NWs. I can't really recommend otherwise until I see it. I've got a free 20watt SB, but that thing is a monster to drive - maybe I can figure something out this weekend and use resistors or something.

 

If I could get my hands on Rebel Blues that are 445 would you think NW/RB/445 B would be a nice combo?

Depends on taste. Evil has mentioned that RB rebels are more violet than Cree RBs, and the specs do state that RB rebels can go as deep as 448. It will add more extreme actinic closer to 420 tubes, but doesn't alter tank color as much as RBs. I can see why Evil sticks to RB Crees over rebs, and it's not a brand thing.

 

Blasterman and I were talking recently about the 445nm LEDs in a fixture he is working on, and the 445nm LEDs don't provide enough visibly additive blue to the mix as expected.

 

Yep. Our eyes are less sensitive to blue the shorter the wavelength is, and while the 10watt '445's pack a huge radiation and actinic punch they only appear as bright as maybe 5-6watts of RB. A standard blue emitter then only requires a fraction the power to appear as bright as an RB, etc. When Evil does a spectrographic we'll know more, but the 10watts 445s should throw 3x as raw PAR as a 3watt RB - at least on paper. They just don't look as bright as their wattage suggest because our eyes can't see all the energy, and they are clearly more violet looking. I was originally hoping they would displace RBs, but such doesn't seem the case. If you like RB rebels, they are an economic substitute. However, if we're are going to work with two distinct colors of blue they make a much stronger arguement.

 

A combo of 1 cool white, 1 neutral white, 1 royal blue, 1 cool blue and 1 cyan would be a great blend

 

A lot of this is theoretical at this point, but DaveFason and Beeker have made it clear they have some good color using some of these combos. Still, I think we should be able to do this with one flavor of white and two flavors of blue, and a three color mix total. Also, when you mix neutrals and cool-whites you tend to overlap the green spectrum, and this might actually cause more issues. I'm also trying to come up with a mix that can be driven at the same current so DIY'ers can try it out on a single driver small scale and know what direction to go. If this whole mess ends up being something that requires several dimmer circuits to tweak in, it's going to be tough to promote it.

[blasterman]

Ok, now I see what DaveFason is so exicted about with his mix. I built a small light with a 10watt 445, NW K2, and a big 20watt standard blue which is around 470nm. I then kept stacking 10ohm resistors in series until the 'windexy' LED was just visible. You could get a real similiar light using two RB's and a neutral-white, and then driving a standard blue Cree at about 1/4 current (guess).

 

The effect was pretty stunning, and now I see why some commercial lights use two colors of blue. The RB's help set the deep aethestic color temp and start some actinic, while the more 'windexy' blue LEDs help pop those stubborn reds, browns and oranges. The problem though is you need really tight adjustment on the standard blues or you over power the tank with cyan very easy. Once you get the level though pretty much all colors in the tank scream bloody murder. If I were to see this light without knowing what it was I'd swear it was a 20k XM. The color is very, very close to halides, so if you don't like 'Disney Color Reef Halides' this ain't for you.

 

[DaveFason]

Thanks blaster. I honestly like either blue or cyan on the mix. Its almost the exact same look. This combo REALLY makes the stuff pop.

 

Here is a small picture of the thee up boards I had made. Three Rebels in a radial pattern. You can run them together, separate and 2:1 by adding a small resistor. An optic is on the very top one. Overall height is only .315" making it very slim. Overall size 1"x1"x.315". Mounting in done by two #2 screws.

 

Pictures over a tank later.

 

 

-Dave

[Genj]

Is the traditional manner to get into the 650-750 nm range been to do it with the white lights, and not specifically red?

 

I've got more money for a fun LED project than I do brains right now, and this thread is exciting to watch develop!

[blasterman]

White LED's rarely go further than 630nm, and cool-white LEDs are anemic with red at best.

 

One reason we're messing around with neutrals is they have much stronger red/orange, and this helps reduce the sting of all the green in white LEDs.

 

You could try far red LEDs (660-700nm), but I really don't think they'd help much with color.

[Genj]

So does that mean that in the reef aquarium while using LEDs that the process of high range photosynthesis has been left out?

 

I know I'm pushing the topic a bit, but I ask because I am hoping the wiser experienced guys, like yourself, find the perfect balance between the needs of the corals and the pleasure of the eyes.

[blasterman]

I'm not ruling out that shallow water corals such as Acropora might utilize red wavelengths to some degree. After all, many species actually grow above the water during low tides, so they could benefit from longer wavelengths being it's not being absorbed so rapidly in water. There just hasn't been any evidence showing red does much with coral, and in some test I've seen far red (>660nm) actually stopped corals from growing. Likely because it's a trigger telling the coral it's growing too shallow.

 

If you look at the popular halides used above high growth SPS tanks you simply don't see much red spectrum at all. Cool-White LEDs are also very,very low in orange/red spectra, and we've cleary proven that CW based LEDs lights can grow SPS just fine. Given the high blue component of cool-white LEDs you could probably grow light hungry corals just fine without any other LEDs, but the tank wouldn't look very good.

[Genj]

Ok, that makes good clear sense. I'm about to embark on this journey with LED myself, and I want to avoid a tank that ends up looking as if it's filled with Winter Mint Listerine, but while giving the eye the most enjoyment.

[DaveFason]

Just keep up with the thread and try not to get brain washed!

 

Neutral whites, Royals, Cyan/blue and you will have an amazing look.

 

blaster - I wonder when the RC people will figure this out.

 

-Dave

[Mr. Microscope]

Just keep up with the thread and try not to get brain washed!

 

Neutral whites, Royals, Cyan/blue and you will have an amazing look.

 

blaster - I wonder when the RC people will figure this out.

 

-Dave

 

So, you think no more cool whites anymore? Too yellow/wash out color?