LED Aesthetics: What do you really think of your color?

[evilc66]

Not sure if I want to get into combos just yet. I have a bunch of Rebels at home. No neutrals as of yet. Dave, I'll hit you up when the time comes. I need to build the test rig first though.

[lizardfish]

photosynthesis peeks at 430nm and 680nm so for best growth 2:1 of RB and red would be best right??? so why we talking about cyan leds? does the coral develop better colors trying to protect itsself from the green light or what? what about UV leds? wont that be a good color enhancer and more florescence ? do NW leds have more red than CW ?

[beeker]

at the moment they don't make any UV leds cheap enough that put out enough light to penatrate 27 inches of water

 

my 200g DD is 27 inches tall and IMO UV has other ill effects that makes me think it's use wouldn't be near as affective as going with something like a cyan led

 

When my Red planet acro was under just a 12k PAR38 it had almost no green skin/base too it

 

this prompted me to think that royal blue and cool white were missing something

 

So to alieviate that issue i got 4 custom PAR38's made, each one of these bulbs has 4 cool blue(470nm) leds and 1 neutral white per bulb

 

My red planet acro after a month of being under the 12k mixxed with a custom cool blue/neutral white bulb brought out that nice green skin/base in the red planet

 

So i've learned from my own experience that cool blue has a positive affect

 

But even with having the cool blue i still didn't think it was enough, so i bough 4 custom all royal blue bulbs to help mixout the rest of the 12k's i already have

 

It will take me atleast another month to see the results from the all royal blue PAR38 additions, but i think it will be good

 

The only spectrum i feel is missing is greenish blue

 

The cool whites have enough Red and green and yellow in them i've had no issue's with orange corals, red corals, or purples, but blues and pinks/pastels seem to need something more than what is over my tank at the moment

 

i wish i could tryout cyan to see this but it will take me some more months before i'm able too

 

Sorry for the long post but i like to be thurough, lol

[willp2]

photosynthesis peeks at 430nm and 680nm so for best growth 2:1 of RB and red would be best right??? so why we talking about cyan leds? does the coral develop better colors trying to protect itsself from the green light or what? what about UV leds? wont that be a good color enhancer and more florescence ? do NW leds have more red than CW ?

 

I think this threads title says it all.

LED Aesthetics: What do really think of your color?

 

Most of the discussion is about what makes the corals look the best. Not what necessarily what produces the best growth. Several people are saying that adding colors like cyan can simply make the coral look better.

[beeker]

i love my tanks color and 95% of my coral colors

 

it really comes down to the fact that i'd love to tweak my spotlights in a way to acheive more than stellar colors with different spectrums of leds

 

So far i've found Neutral white, Cool white, Cool blue and Royal blue to bring out almost all the colors that a MH or T5 setup can bring out

 

But i also think cyan would help out a ton becuase it isn't a straight green led, it isn't purple like royal blue but it isn't as cool looking as 470nm cool blue is, i think it would help the pinks and green out and bring some more flourescents to my sps although it will be awhile before i can try this out on my setup

 

Also from looking at the ocean it does have a greenish blue tint to it, and that leads me to believe if you put more greenish blue light over your corals they'll have a positive reaction as well, just make sure not to saturate the corals with too much cyan and you'll be ok

 

kindof how i blended out my all Royal blue PAR38's with 60 optics with the 12k PAR38 40 optic bulbs i already have

 

In a way we are trying to replicate those spectrums that T5 and MH have with leds, but since leds only put off 1 spectrum by themselves you need 3 to 4 or 5 different colored leds to replicate what 1 MH bulb does, but at the savings of bulb replacement, heat and electricity

 

In the way you do this it isn't less effective than a MH or T5 setup it's just using a diffrent though process to light a tank and bringing a group of spectrums together to get the desired affect

[lizardfish]

thanks for the reply beeker, the best growth part was just a offsubject Q. i had. what i ment to ask is does the cyan change the color of the coral or does it make the color that the coral is look better ? and ur right reefs in the wild do get hit with allot of green cuz at 15-25 feet it hasn't ben filtered out were as red orange and yellow have. looking forward to how ur tank looks

[blasterman]

But i also think cyan would help out a ton becuase it isn't a straight green led

 

Yeah, I'm inclined to agree that cyan or even cyan-ish blue is an important variable here. I found that playing with blues, RB and deeper, didn't make that much difference in terms of specific coral colors even though it produced a different over-all tank aethestic. However, going from RB to cyan'ish blue produced some rather dramatic changes in certain coral colors.

 

Consider the reasons that corals reflect blues back in such bright actinic colors. They're basically rejecting the light back to protect themselves, and the deeper the blue the coral responds to the more light it probably likes.

 

Also consider that not all white LEDs are equal in terms of what type of blue light they emit. Ideally white LEDs are supposed to start at royal blue, and then add phoshors and such to produce the desired type of white. However, not all white LEDs start at royal blue due to quality control variations, and when you have people building DIY lights from parts bought from DX and such this leads to differences in color. Also consider that we're seeing more and more high end LED lights that have more than one dimmable type of blue.

[beeker]

Blasterman do you have any pics with Cyan leds over your corals?

 

cause i'd love to see some photo's of their color/effect on pigments

[blasterman]

Yeah....working on it tonight. I gave all my SPS away because I'm moving and don't want to worry about water conditions, but it's obvious with my Zoas.

 

Also, I'm not trying to bring other forum issues into this conversations, but for all of you please tread lightly over at RC in regards to any LED topic. Anytime I disagree with their resident DIY elite I get a nasty warning from a mod. I know there's a similiar discussion over there that's been mentioned in this thread, but just be carefull. You do it their way...or else. Sorry...didn't mean to take this off topic.

[willp2]

Also, I'm not trying to bring other forum issues into this conversations, but for all of you please tread lightly over at RC in regards to any LED topic. Anytime I disagree with their resident DIY elite I get a nasty warning from a mod. I know there's a similiar discussion over there that's been mentioned in this thread, but just be carefull. You do it their way...or else. Sorry...didn't mean to take this off topic.

Just read a bunch of your rant over at RC. Good stuff, keep it up. I hate the whole idea that there's basically one way to do this stuff or it's somehow wrong or not as good. Another reason I love this thread as well.

[Machupicchu]

Just read a bunch of your rant over at RC. Good stuff, keep it up. I hate the whole idea that there's basically one way to do this stuff or it's somehow wrong or not as good. Another reason I love this thread as well.

 

Good job guys keep the info coming. I think a lot of reefers are benefiting from you efforts here. I know, i know i am. Im thinking im going to do a 24 combo of 9 RB 9 CW 3 NW and 3 CB

[blasterman]

Here's some color shots I made last night showing how RB and more cyanish LEDs behave on some Zoas. Top shots are under a conventional CW / RB 1:1 ratio. Middle shots are RB. Bottom shots are with a 20watt blue I had laying around. It's not quite as 'windexy' as a standard blue Cree, but it's in the same ballpark. Maybe around 470nm. Visually it's drastically more cyan that a typical RB array. Note how the more cyan LEDs pops oranges and burgandy's much better than RB which actually surpresses them a bit. However, GSP in the upper right looks dull under the more cyan LED while it pops under RB. All shots were made with manual camera settings and extracted RAW at the same parameters.

 

[beeker]

Nice photo's blasterman

 

470nm cool blue, with cool white and royal blue is an awesome combo, and has brought out good colors on my sps

 

Do you have any actual Cyan LED you could put your corals under, cause honestly thats the color i think is missing

 

A combo of all 4 types of leds, or even 5 if you throw in neutral white should be the perfect blend to get all the colors people are trying to acheive with leds

[InsideJoke]

This thread has been an awesome read. Though it has put me on the bench about jumping in on LEDs right now until the color blending can be sorted out. The bottom shot of Blastermans last photo set looks amazing. I'm just worried about getting LEDs and being disappointed with the colors. I'm not the most electrical savvy person and I'd hate to be tinkering around with the LEDs until I got a color I liked. Perhaps a T5+LED combo might work until the total switch to LEDs.

[DaveFason]

Blasterman great stuff. You are really making some headway. I will post some photo's of my RB/NW/Cyan set up. Its unreal! You've been a great help.

 

-Dave

 

P.S - It so much better over here at NR

[blasterman]

In order for me to start messing with Cyan LEDs I'll need to have an additional dimmer circuit. Regular blue Crees (about 475nm) are as 'Windex' as I'll go, and they'lll certainly need dimming to balance them right. Not a huge priority right now, but those zoa shots did peak my interest. Getting some good comparison shots of neutrals -vs- CWs is higher on my list. This has been informative as heck, but I'm worried Evil will start getting orders for his PARs requesting five different colored LEDs

 

InsideJoke, my suggestion is to get 4-5 different colored LEDs, a small driver, and superglue them to a computer heat-sink. Fire it up over your tank and get an idea how the color looks. Try a neutral white with two RBs and then swap the neutral for a cool-white. This will give you solid concept into what the color will look like full scale.

[InsideJoke]

InsideJoke, my suggestion is to get 4-5 different colored LEDs, a small driver, and superglue them to a computer heat-sink. Fire it up over your tank and get an idea how the color looks. Try a neutral white with two RBs and then swap the neutral for a cool-white. This will give you solid concept into what the color will look like full scale.

 

I may have to try that to see if I can get something like a 14k Phoenix MH. I keep looking at tank set ups that use them and love the colors.

[Mike Maddox]

I wrote a little rant along the line's of Blasterman's attempt to educate the RC populace (I have that up 8 years ago though!): information transparency and LED lighting if anyone's interested.

 

Now, we just need to wait until Evil develops his own diodes...

[willp2]

Anyone have any specific color temps for cyans and any other interesting colors? I'm about to start a new build and I think I'll try and add some more color this time instead of the typical CW / RB that I've been doing. I already have the CW/RB LED’s so I’d like to augment them to try and get more punch.

 

I'm thinking of dropping down a couple BIN's for the cyan's or even dropping them down to 1W as it sounds like I wouldn't need much from them to get the desired effect. Does that make sense?

[beeker]

if you do the Ratio of Cyan to Royal blue/Cool blue/Cool white/Neutral white I'd believe that when you'd mix all of these they'd blend in a way to where no 1 Led is overpowering the other

 

So you'd still be able to run them all at the maxium wattage and still get the desired effect

 

IE: putting 2 cyan with a royal blue and a neutral or cool white in a PAR38 style bulb IMO the cyan would be the heavier color but becuase of optics and the closeness of the leds you most likely wouldn't notice the cyan as much as you think you would

 

I have 4 All royal blue PAR38's over my tank with 60 optics

 

They are angled in a way to mix with my 12k 40 optic PAR38's in a way so you get the highlights of all that Royal blue but you don't notice the blue at all on the rockwork you only see the 12k bulb but the corals look more intense becuase of the Royal blue highlighting the corals

 

it works out nicely, i will have more pics of my tank up in about 3 weeks after i see the color change/shift

 

i rearranged my rockwork as well, so you guys will have to tell me what you think

 

So far i have

 

8 12k PAR38's with 40 optics

4 All Royal blue PAR38's with 60 optics

4 custom PAR38's with each bulb having 4 Cool blue(470nm) and 1 neutral white led per bulb with 60 optics

4 20k's with 40 optics

 

In my opinion the only color my setup lacks is Cyan, so i'm hoping to see your guys results

[blasterman]

I wrote a little rant along the line's of Blasterman's attempt to educate the RC populace

Good write-up, and very accurate. What we really need is a white LED that's optimized for reefing and not have to rely on massive amounts of RBs added in to cancel out the green/yellow in CWs. If you could make a white LED with significantly less green and a bit less amber while keeping strong blue and red it would probably be a single LED solution. Plus, it would be even more efficient than current CWs for coral growth. I mean, it's fun to have a 'dial-in your color' option with LEDs, but the fact is that CW LEDs waste a lot of their energy producing colors we then want to get rid of. All current white LEDs of any color temp are designed for our eyes, not reefing, which is why we have to add other colors in to make the tank look decent. Everytime I bring this fact up on on RC I get a warning, so there's obviously an agenda.

 

I honestly don't think most of the commercial fixture makers know what's going on given how many of them are copying from each other. At least if you knew the LED's they used you good look up the plots. Also, Cree, Bridgelux and Luxeon weren't interested when I pestered them about making higher powered far blue emitters, but one Asian company was happy to custom make that 10watt '445' I sent to Evil simply on request, and they say they're selling the heck out them. So, it helps thinking outside the box.

[DaveFason]

blaster - Send me some info on the whites and what they would need. I may have someone that really could get that done through Luxeon. Same place I have my custom 3 up boards being made. Local to me too.

 

-Dave

[blasterman]

Mmmm.....good luck with Luxeon, but you never know. Simply ask them if it's possible to reduce the green component / semiconductor doping in a cool-white LED by about 2/3 while leaving blue and red where they are. Reducing amber (yellow) would help, but I'm not going to get greedy.

 

Think about it - when you run a reef light with only cool-whites, what color makes you go 'blah-yuck'? The excessive green-yellow cast. So, we turn up the RB's and to wash out the green-yellow and give us a psuedo high CCT, but the green-yellow is still there. Green-yellow also has little PAR value and it's just sucking up energy anyways. So, my question is if a white LED can be made with those phosphors significantly reduced.

[DPRoberts]

I just put up a thread on my new 12g w/ the Rapid LED PAR 30 bulb. I took a bunch of pictures using different cameras and white balance settings. In summary, the Auto setting made the light look far too blue and washed out, the corrected white balance wasn't blue enough. I have yet to find a camera setting that accurately replicates the real look of the light. I am now very suspicious of hobbyist photos on the internet- while I'm sure a dedicated photographer could post an accurate photo, I don't think the average hobbyist can (or is willing to) manipulate a photo enough to produce a lifelike result. If you're interested, check out my thread here.

[evilc66]

Now, we just need to wait until Evil develops his own diodes...

Wouldn't that be nice? I've got feelers out there, but like Blasterman said, most companies aren't interested. The ones that are, I'm not too keen on from a qualitly standpoint. It's going to be tough, but not impossible.

 

What I think we may find with some testing (ok, what I may find with the spectrometer), is a good, high quality white LED that already exists, but exhibits some of the wants and needs that we have. Looking through some datasheets recently, I've come to believe that to be true based on the provided spectral plots, but I will take those with a grain of sand till I can test them myself. The areas I'm looking at specifically is being able to add more red without unnecessarily adding more green, and bringing the trailing edge of the blue peak further into cyan territory. That should offer us a far more balanced white LED to base our systems on, while minimizing the number of additional LED colors that we have to mess with. These will most likely be higher wattage LEDs than we are used to working with, so adjustments to layouts (similar to what Blasterman has been offering advice on in the past) will have to be made to make full use of them.