LED Aesthetics: What do you really think of your color?

[Machupicchu]

I hear so many people who have switched back and forth between LED and halide and it's always about 50/50 who say the corals did better under LED, however, with the ease and of DIY LED lighting and the fact that it is so new to the aquarium hobby i think there are way to many variables beside the capability of the LEDs themselves to consider when comparing them to other forms of lighting.

 

I think coverage is just as important if not more important than intensity with LEDs, and this is what i see many inexperienced DIYers skimp on while designing their light. T-5 or VHO lighting has some of the best coverage because the bulb emits light all the way across the length of the tank and if it is multiple bulbs than it does the same for the thickness of the tank lighting it evenly from every side. Metal Halide usually has better coverage (hypothetically) because there is a much larger source of light compared to an LED emitter and they emit light from all direction and then bounce it back down using a reflector, so you could say a metal halide light source is roughly as large as the reflector.

Now with LEDs, emit light from a tiny little emitter and while the viewing angle on most LEDs is around 120*, they only emit in one direction so there is nothing to bounce around a reflector and spread out light and because of this, the actual intensity of the LED is still very directional. This is why optimal coverage is very important, and even if 24 LEDs is plenty enough for a tank power wise, it may not be enough coverage.

 

My last design was a cannon type design with one very high powered neutral white surrounded by 12 royal blue all with 60 degree optics. While the color and blending looks great, and the light is more than powerful for the tank, SPS which are not directly under the light have a shadow, and the ones who are furthest from the light are even starting to retract polyps and brown out because there is only one small source of light in the middle of the tank. Half of one coral could be doing great but the other half could be dying, while everything in the middle under the light look absolutely amazing. They would probably do better without optics but i was going for that cannon type design. My next design, however, will be a longer fixture with multiple sources of each color and no optics.

 

Something to consider when designing a light or wondering why your corals aren't as happy as before.

 

Also, when first switched to LED it took me awhile to realize that it takes about 3 weeks at the same intensity for the corals to fully adjust to LED, after that the colors start to look great and the piece itself look full and healthy and start growing.

[PRReef]

Which MH fixture?

 

Im using Odyssea advance plus 24" 250w phoenix 14k MH + 4 T5 ATI. It cost me half of the price of the Leds DIY kit and its doing a better job for all my corals. I only believe in Leds supplementation which is going to cost me like $90. So yeah that's the plan when my t5 needs replacement.

[blasterman]

Some interesting observations on different types of neutral white LEDs:

 

Last night I mounted a brand new NW Rebel from LEDsupply and compared it to my current NW Bridgelux 401s. The Rebel being a low CRI 'ANSI' version it has a somewhat different spectral weighting than higher CRI NWs like the Bridgelux. Mostly it's a lack of amber (yellow).

 

Even though both LEDs are suppoed to be in the <4100-4500> range their color rendering was totally different. The Bridgelux appeared warmer with more yellow, while the Rebel was significantly cooler and greener. Outside of the tank the LEDs were closer in subjective color temp, although for standard room lighting the Rebel clearly suffered with it's lower CRI. In fact, other than being brighter and obviously more efficient the rebel reminded me of really cheap Chinese white LEDs.

 

I'm not sure if the 'ANSI' spec'd LEDs really solve anything and my original theory that less amber spectrum is better is still a theory. The more annoying observation is that NW LEDs are almost as variable as their cool white cousins. I'm going to play with a warm white ANSI Rebel just for grins and see what it does.

[syncro]

Here is my attempt to summarize this thread and others I've read on LED asthetics. I've copied and/or paraphrased from your posts to make this thread more accessible. I hope this is ok, let me know if you want any of your words removed.

 

Color

 

Warm Whites (WW) - Very warm. Difficult to blend with bluer colors. Not commonly used. Blaster stated mixing a 3:1 ( RB:WW ) ratio will bring out the Willy Wonka in you.

 

Neutral White (NW) - The preferred white color. A much more natural color that brings out warmer colors in coral. Best matched with RB in a 2:1 RB:NW ratio provided you are using NW LEDs that can do 180 lumens at 700mA (the Chinese variants usually cannot).

 

Cool White (CW) - Very bright and efficient but dull in warmer colors. Replaced by NW as the preferred white LED. Some users have reported better color when using both CW and NW in an array while othes say NW+RB can achieve the same color output. There is a wide variation in the color tempurature of different bins of LEDS. The DX bin of Crees and most Chinese LEDs are typically cooler (more blue) in the 6000K - 10000K range. Cree XP-G are more blue than Cree XR-E.

 

Cool Blue (aka Blue, aka Standard Blue) (CB or - On the greener/blue side. These bring out the colors the neutral white and royal blues wont [what colors?]. Can easily overpower other leds leading to a 'windex' look. Blends well with NW and RB, consider runnning without optics to blend better.

 

Royal Blue (RB) - A must have. When your working with cool white or neutral white is the go-to blue.

 

Cyan - VERY green unless you are able to choose your exact binning. They can bring some wicked colors out but leave an awful green shadow everywhere. Even when clustered closely I would not recommend these to the average DIYer.

 

Red ( R ) - Very difficult to blend with other colors. Even a single red in a fixture can be distracting. Consider running reds on lower power (with a dimmer) and without optics. There is some debate that red wavelengths inhibit coral growth. Preference is to use NW leds to being out red colors.

 

True Violet (V or TV) - Litte impact of visual appearance, slight pop on certain colors, little or no purple added to overall color. Primary usage would be for growth. Use with caution (PAR meter preferably) since they put out more light than is visible. Difficult to source.

 

 

This section could use more specifics (e.g. WW is typically 5000K - 6000K). Notes on specific bins. Links to individual emitters

 

Recommended Ratio

 

4 NW : 7 RB : 1 CB

 

NW: Cree XP-G NW. Use NW LEDs that can output 180 lumens at 700mA (the Chinese variants usually cannot).

RB: Cree XP-E RB

CB: Cree XP-E Blue

 

Shimmer

Shimmer is the moving bright lines (and corresponding though less noticeable dark areas) on the tank inhabitants and substrate. You also see the same shimmer on the bottom of outdoor pool or the shallow water at the beach. Shimmer is caused by turbulence at the water surface concentrating the light emitted by a point source as it is refracted towards the bottom of the tank. Shimmer sometimes also includes the light reflected directly back at the viewer off the water surface.

 

Compact fluorescent bulbs (PC, VHO, T5) produce very little shimmer because the light comes from a very large area (the entire surface area of the bulb). Metal halides produce a mild shimmer since the light comes from a single concentrated point. LED fixtures produce a lot of shimmer because each LED causes its own shimmer lines though each shimmer line is smaller than MH. MH is typically considered the standard for pleasing shimmer probably because it resembles the sun (a point source). LEDs have an additional problem when a fixture combines LED with different colors - each shimmer line is of a different color. This is "disco ball" effect.

 

Options for minimizing LED shimmer:

- Reduce surface turbulence (reduce flow, orient flow away from the surface)

- Hang the fixture close to the water (< 5") with no optics

- Hang the fixure really high (3-5 feet) and use tight optics (20 - 40 degree)

 

 

Color Blending (Color Shadows, Color Separation)

LED fixtures using several color LEDs often cause color shadows. This appears as shadows in the tank of different colors. It occurs when one LED illuminates the shadow cast by a different color LED. The resulting shadow looks like it has a color cast compared to other shadows nearby. It is most noticeable on the sand bed. Related is color separation where turbulence on the water surface refracts each LED slightly differently. This results in moving areas of slightly different color. Again most noticeable in areas of uniform color such as the sand bed.

 

Options to improve blending:

- Cluster LEDs as close as possible (even touching).

- Hang the fixture close to the water (< 5") with no optics

- Hang the fixure really high (3-5 feet) and use tight optics (20 - 40 degree)

- Use diamond diffuser in front of the leds. This is similar to the diffuser used in flourescent office light fixtures. Available from Home Depot. Link?

 

Spotlighting

This is when the tank is unevenly lit (like a spotlight on stage). It is caused by fixtures close to the tank with tight optics or excessive spacing. Any specific/concrete guidelines?

 

I would love to see a wiki type feature on nano-reef so others can update this with corrections and new information. I don't think we do. Instead I'd encourage everyone to post any changes. This includes changes to make the text clearer, more concise, correction, specifics, elaboration, removing old information, adding new information. Please post the exact text you want. Newbies can be refered here ulimately helping us all so they can spend their time experimenting rather than reading.

[DaveFason]

Blaster,

I would not mind sending you my Rebel ES in NW and CW. The colors really are spectacular. However your comment on NW is completely true. Buying them is just like purchasing CW from anyone. Binning from all over so one batch will be warmer while the other much cooler. The company I deal with primarly uses NW so I can get the exact binning I like.

 

Let me know on the offer. Plus LEDsupply has terrible old rebels.

 

-Dave

 

Some interesting observations on different types of neutral white LEDs:

 

Last night I mounted a brand new NW Rebel from LEDsupply and compared it to my current NW Bridgelux 401s. The Rebel being a low CRI 'ANSI' version it has a somewhat different spectral weighting than higher CRI NWs like the Bridgelux. Mostly it's a lack of amber (yellow).

 

Even though both LEDs are suppoed to be in the <4100-4500> range their color rendering was totally different. The Bridgelux appeared warmer with more yellow, while the Rebel was significantly cooler and greener. Outside of the tank the LEDs were closer in subjective color temp, although for standard room lighting the Rebel clearly suffered with it's lower CRI. In fact, other than being brighter and obviously more efficient the rebel reminded me of really cheap Chinese white LEDs.

 

I'm not sure if the 'ANSI' spec'd LEDs really solve anything and my original theory that less amber spectrum is better is still a theory. The more annoying observation is that NW LEDs are almost as variable as their cool white cousins. I'm going to play with a warm white ANSI Rebel just for grins and see what it does.

[Bamboo]

Will a fixture with 9 Royal Blue and 9 Cool White XP-E LEDS look good?

[Machupicchu]

Will a fixture with 9 Royal Blue and 9 Cool White XP-E LEDS look good?

Read post 2 before your's.

 

Syncro, the deed is done. Thanks

[racerfreak]

First I can't decide If I should add 12x (Cool)Blue 3w Cree XR-E LEDs to my existing 12x RB XR-E and 12x CW XR-E setup. I really like having that blue tint that I had with t5s.

 

Secondly I was contemplating adding some 400nm UV LEDs with the CB LEDs, like a 8x CB and 4x UV. Any suggestions on where to buy some? I found some at topledlight.com, I didn't know if that was a good led or a place to buy.

 

Third I also wanted to add some red to bring out the Fiji Purple look, should I go with 1 Red led or a few NW or even WW LEDs?

[gojk]

I think that 12 CB will be overwhelming. Try 2 or 4 on a lower power circuit and see if you like the look. To get the reds I decided to add WWs. I currently run 2CB, 12RB, 12CW(bearly turned on), and 8 WW and I love the color. It is pretty close to my T5 fixture with 2 ATI Blue+, 1 Fiji Purple, and 1 14k White bulb.

[racerfreak]

I think that 12 CB will be overwhelming. Try 2 or 4 on a lower power circuit and see if you like the look. To get the reds I decided to add WWs. I currently run 2CB, 12RB, 12CW(bearly turned on), and 8 WW and I love the color. It is pretty close to my T5 fixture with 2 ATI Blue+, 1 Fiji Purple, and 1 14k White bulb.

 

Do you have an accurate picture of your setup? Surprised no one else has chimed in

[Kettle2]

Edit: not sure where the pictures went, so I'll try to attach them instead.

 

Just thought I would chime in with some personal observation. I've been using LED's for a while now, a mixture of cool whites and royal blues. One thing that always bugged me about LED's is the poor mixing of colours. My tank has had bad spotlighting since I first added LED's, it was visible when you looked at the tank and even more noticeable when trying to photograph the tank. Also my wife complains about the shimmering in the tank being over the top. My LED's are all closely spaced and they sit up from the tank high enough that they should blend, but they just won't. So today I went to a local electrical supplier and purchased some diffuser material, I noticed a few posts up it is referred to as diamond diffuser, but it also commonly is called prysmatic diffuser or just K12 diffuser. I cut it down to size and swapped it out for the glass and the difference was immediately noticeable. Now I only have a slight shimmer effect and the colour blending is much better. Here are a couple of pictures of the sandline, where the poor blending was most noticeable to the camera before.

 

With glass splash guard:

 

With K12 diffuser:

[Stu]

Edit: not sure where the pictures went, so I'll try to attach them instead.

 

Just thought I would chime in with some personal observation. I've been using LED's for a while now, a mixture of cool whites and royal blues. One thing that always bugged me about LED's is the poor mixing of colours. My tank has had bad spotlighting since I first added LED's, it was visible when you looked at the tank and even more noticeable when trying to photograph the tank. Also my wife complains about the shimmering in the tank being over the top. My LED's are all closely spaced and they sit up from the tank high enough that they should blend, but they just won't. So today I went to a local electrical supplier and purchased some diffuser material, I noticed a few posts up it is referred to as diamond diffuser, but it also commonly is called prysmatic diffuser or just K12 diffuser. I cut it down to size and swapped it out for the glass and the difference was immediately noticeable. Now I only have a slight shimmer effect and the colour blending is much better. Here are a couple of pictures of the sandline, where the poor blending was most noticeable to the camera before.

 

This seems like a great solution for blending. Do you know anything about the diffusing effect on PAR?

[Kettle2]

This seems like a great solution for blending. Do you know anything about the diffusing effect on PAR?

 

To be honest, I'm unsure. I would love to have a PAR meter, but I don't have access to one. I imagine that, as with any diffuser, there will be some decrease. I was already putting together some equipment to double my current LED lighting, so I figure that the loss from the diffuser will more than be accounted for by this. It would be great if someone who had access to a PAR meter was able to measure the difference, I picked up the sheet for about $15AUD. They come as quite large sheets, although I only needed 10cmx30cm worth, so I just took to it with a hacksaw. It is quite easy to cut neatly.

[rO.oster]

how about a 8:13:2 NW/RB/B ratio for a BC29? will this be enough "spread" running dimmable thomas drivers that max at 700mA

 

thanks!

[Stu]

I finished up my LED project last night and got it all mounted inside my Nova Extreme Pro fixture that formerly housed 20" t5s. I used 20 Cree XP-E RB's and 10 Cree XP-G NW's, with 15RB's on one Thomas Research driver and 5 RB's and 10 NW's on another. Both drivers have individual pots for dimming. The light is only about 4" over the tank and my tank is 18" deep (30gal. cube), so no optics were used.

 

My initial reactions:

 

1. It's not as bright as the t5s, but I knew to expect that.

 

2. I love the shimmer.

 

3. The greens, purples, and yellows look incredible. Plenty of pop and I'm very pleased.

 

4. Color blending is very good with no noticeable banding.

 

5. My one area of disappointment, and this is a big disappointment, is how dull my reds, oranges, and pinks seem now.

 

Formerly under my crappy Current USA t5s (4 actinic, 2 daylight), I had decent pop from my monti setosa, red monti cap, red zoas, etc. Under the LEDs, these corals seems significantly duller, and really lack any kind of pop. I was hoping that the NW's would achieve this, but it looks like this isn't the case. Is there anything I can add or tweak to help with this? Is this something where swapping out a couple of RB's for CB's would help? I know there are pros and cons for each type of lighting, but the fact that all of the reds/pinks/oranges in my tank are instantly dull is pretty frustrating.

[Trick]

I finished up my LED project last night and got it all mounted inside my Nova Extreme Pro fixture that formerly housed 20" t5s. I used 20 Cree XP-E RB's and 10 Cree XP-G NW's, with 15RB's on one Thomas Research driver and 5 RB's and 10 NW's on another. Both drivers have individual pots for dimming. The light is only about 4" over the tank and my tank is 18" deep (30gal. cube), so no optics were used.

 

My initial reactions:

 

1. It's not as bright as the t5s, but I knew to expect that.

 

2. I love the shimmer.

 

3. The greens, purples, and yellows look incredible. Plenty of pop and I'm very pleased.

 

4. Color blending is very good with no noticeable banding.

 

5. My one area of disappointment, and this is a big disappointment, is how dull my reds, oranges, and pinks seem now.

 

Formerly under my crappy Current USA t5s (4 actinic, 2 daylight), I had decent pop from my monti setosa, red monti cap, red zoas, etc. Under the LEDs, these corals seems significantly duller, and really lack any kind of pop. I was hoping that the NW's would achieve this, but it looks like this isn't the case. Is there anything I can add or tweak to help with this? Is this something where swapping out a couple of RB's for CB's would help? I know there are pros and cons for each type of lighting, but the fact that all of the reds/pinks/oranges in my tank are instantly dull is pretty frustrating.

+1

how do you get the reds to pop more

[bamboosharkbark]

on a scale from 1-10 how is this?

 

9 x 4/12 inch heatsink suspended 15'' above 20 gallon H

 

CW---RB---CW---RB

RB ---WW---CB---CW

CW---[-------]---RB

 

^bottom middle open for the aluminum arm that will hold the heatsink

 

w/ 80degree optics

 

 

and feel free to comment too =)

[Trick]

on a scale from 1-10 how is this?

 

9 x 4/12 inch heatsink suspended 15'' above 20 gallon H

 

CW---RB---CW---RB

RB ---WW---CB---CW

CW---[-------]---RB

 

^bottom middle left open for the aluminum arm that will hold the heatsink

 

w/ 80degree optics

 

 

and feel free to comment too =)

 

I would do 60 degree optics and i'm not sure if using the WW will do anything since you are also using CW. Hopefully someone else chimes in.

[Trick]

Here is my attempt to summarize this thread and others I've read on LED asthetics. I've copied and/or paraphrased from your posts to make this thread more accessible. I hope this is ok, let me know if you want any of your words removed.

 

Color

 

Warm Whites (WW) - Very warm. Difficult to blend with bluer colors. Not commonly used. Blaster stated mixing a 3:1 ( RB:WW ) ratio will bring out the Willy Wonka in you.

 

[/i]

What does bringing out the willy wonka mean? does that mean really purple?

[bamboosharkbark]

What does bringing out the willy wonka mean? does that mean really purple?

 

trust me you don't wanna know :/ jk

[JaneG]

5. My one area of disappointment, and this is a big disappointment, is how dull my reds, oranges, and pinks seem now.

 

Formerly under my crappy Current USA t5s (4 actinic, 2 daylight), I had decent pop from my monti setosa, red monti cap, red zoas, etc. Under the LEDs, these corals seems significantly duller, and really lack any kind of pop. I was hoping that the NW's would achieve this, but it looks like this isn't the case. Is there anything I can add or tweak to help with this? Is this something where swapping out a couple of RB's for CB's would help? I know there are pros and cons for each type of lighting, but the fact that all of the reds/pinks/oranges in my tank are instantly dull is pretty frustrating.

 

 

+1

how do you get the reds to pop more

I think that many people suggest adding Cool Blue LEDs, because you're still lacking a little bit of the spectrum (and that should help fill it in).

[Stu]

I think that many people suggest adding Cool Blue LEDs, because you're still lacking a little bit of the spectrum (and that should help fill it in).

 

I actually received 5 cool blues from RapidLED yesterday. I'm going to swap out RB's with the new CB's, one at a time and essentially stop once I get to a good blend where I will (hopefully) get some better reds and oranges.

[KevinR]

Hey what do you guys think wich color are these gonna make? (with 50/50)

 

Link

 

Should i correct the color with switching 2 10000k to 2 cree nw?

or what do you think? should i leave it this way? should i change something else?

or should i take 10x 10k +8rb +2 uv?

btw is the number of leds ok for a 12g sps tank?

thx

[Trick]

This should fix some color issues: http://reefbuilders.com/2011/08/09/panorama-pro-led-2/

[DaveFason]

Drool. I will have a run of Rebel ES Royal blue 1100mW LED's in.

 

I am to excited to test these. SMOKING the CREE XP/R.

 

-Dave