pyrrhus Posted April 9, 2004 Share Posted April 9, 2004 as far as wanting to see the numbers for PC's id like to know on what empirical basis you are basing your argument that MH is that much superior to PC that is all. yes, lets see some real data. and i am very familiar with the scientific method i learned it in the third grade and have done several projects using this method. how about you show me the data for the superiority of MH instead of a blanket statement that no one even considers it. im more than willing to change my POV on this issue just havent been able to find the DATA on it. Link to comment
onthefly Posted April 9, 2004 Share Posted April 9, 2004 Well, I fully agree with Corey that no matter what is stated, you (pyrrhus) are going to do what ever you want to do. If you NEED convincing that MH's are superior to PC, then you also probably one of those people who believes Kennedy was shot by an Area 51 alien from the grassy knoll...... How many threads are on this forum, where people (myself included) have SPS that 3" from 96W of PC, and they never reach there fully color potential....but when switched to MH....they color up amazingly......There must be 20-30! In my case, I went from browned up corals under 96W PC (in a 5.5 AGA), to sweet coloration under 70W MH + 26W Ac03 PC. Same Wattage......TOTALLY different respond by the livestock!!!! MH put out more light....period! Link to comment
birdman204 Posted April 9, 2004 Share Posted April 9, 2004 http://www.aquarium-design.com/reef/uvlighting.html look at the output graphs for PC and MH........ Link to comment
birdman204 Posted April 9, 2004 Share Posted April 9, 2004 MH PC Noticce that the reading does not even go above 100 for the PC's yet the lowest reading for the MH is 100.... Nuff said. Link to comment
corey0613 Posted April 9, 2004 Share Posted April 9, 2004 the scientific method and what i presented are 2 different things. im sure you understand that and using the term "scientific method" must have just been another one of your unsightly mistakes!!!!!! and i am absoultely shocked that you just asked us to prove MH's superiority in the reef industry. man your really out there! i think that your lack of understanding or denial stems from the fact that you dont run the MH's so you have no idea the dramatic impact that they have on your tank compared to PC. i myself have switched a tank over and it is remarkable. especially with the clams and SPS. Link to comment
corey0613 Posted April 9, 2004 Share Posted April 9, 2004 im sure he'll still argue about something like he didnt like the colors in the graph!!!!!! hehe. BAM! Link to comment
birdman204 Posted April 9, 2004 Share Posted April 9, 2004 He is entitled to his opinion as he has stated. And I agree with that, unfortunatley, his opinions aren't beneficial to the hobby, or to newcomers coming to the site to learn. I do tend to agree with most Opinions..... that are backed by science. Link to comment
corey0613 Posted April 9, 2004 Share Posted April 9, 2004 exactly, there is room for different avenues in this hobby. which makes it cool. but lighting has pretty much been tested tried and true. nothing (that we know of yet) beats a MH! Link to comment
onthefly Posted April 9, 2004 Share Posted April 9, 2004 You know.....I'm really interested in looking at T5's for my next tank....... Link to comment
pyrrhus Posted April 9, 2004 Share Posted April 9, 2004 thank you all for the great information, it is much appreciated, doesnt show PAR values but what is shown is very convincing. anyone have recomendations for 70W MH lamps and ballasts, and what combinations work well, like i said earlier im not arguing that MH is superior just wanted some data to support it before i purchase them. BTW cost was never an issue for me as i can get just about any product related to the hobby at wholesale. once again thank you for presenting a valid comparison between the two thats all i wanted. Link to comment
pyrrhus Posted April 9, 2004 Share Posted April 9, 2004 and to be honest i didnt really care for the colors of the graphs, coulda been more vivid. Link to comment
onthefly Posted April 9, 2004 Share Posted April 9, 2004 Pyrrhus - I run the 3euf Aromat ballast (Ebay $50), Ushio 10kK MH (Hellolights $69), 6.25" Reflector (Hellolights $7), the spring loaded holders (Hellolights $13), and a 3 prong power cord (Hellolights $3)....Total $142. Cheaper than all the DYI PC stuff I used to fill my hood in the first place! Link to comment
birdman204 Posted April 10, 2004 Share Posted April 10, 2004 Originally posted by corey0613 nothing (that we know if yet) beats a MH! Not true... Whatta bout the sun Originally posted by pyrrhus and to be honest i didnt really care for the colors of the graphs, coulda been more vivid. At least you are reading the posts and have a sense of humor If you don't feel like going the ebay route, hello lights offers a magnetic 70W ballast. You may wanna look into 150's also, if money isn't an issue, i think one can be done for just a few $ more than a 70W. look at www.hellolights.com for MH diy parts.you'll need -Bulb -Ballast ( hellolights , everything comes with it, electronic ballasts are alot easier to wire, and they usually don't have ignitors or additional capacitor) -springloaded bulb mounts -reflector, this is another issue of grest debate. I like spider reflectors, but they are too big for nano's under 10G. Also I like the speckled reflectors, for more random light diffusion. -power cord -don't forget fans, or some way to cool it, can be done at radio shack for under 50$, I reccomend the more expensive 12V DC fans, they push a much larger amount of air for being almost the same size as 6 or 9 v fans. A suggestion, I use a Tunze 20K bulb, the Par will be slightly lower than the 10K, but I love the blue color. Will be adding a 2nd 70W when the bulb is ordered, I just need to get off my arse. Link to comment
corey0613 Posted April 10, 2004 Share Posted April 10, 2004 one little graphic and now you are going to purchase MH? you still need to read up on heat issues, photoperiod, etc. before you run out and buy these. again, gaining knowledge prior to doing things in this hobby will pay out in the long run. Link to comment
pyrrhus Posted April 10, 2004 Share Posted April 10, 2004 no, more than one little graphic, i read the whole article. like i said i was looking for data the only data i could find prior to this showed that PC had slightly lower PAR levels than that generated by halide but not enough to justify purchasing a whole new light rig. like I said before i appreciate pointing out good data on the subject, i just wish someone would have done it before this whole argument on the issue with the flames and all. BTW i can get 175 and 250 MH complete retro kits for about $180 would 175 be too much? i dont really want to build a new canopy for my tank and it is currently about a 5" canopy above a 12" tank would give me about 2-1/2-3" above the water after acounting for reflector and mogul base. as far as heat issues go i already have a powerful fan running in my canopy, and i would start my MH photoperiod at about 6 hrs. i have done a lot of reading on MH just wasnt able to find any on PC. and i am not the originator of this thread im not tyring to run a 6g nano mine is 10g AGA. and corey, as birds sig so poignantly states... thanks for the insults, they were helpful, i will rethink my existence...pyrrhus Link to comment
pyrrhus Posted April 10, 2004 Share Posted April 10, 2004 oh yeah, corey the fact that your 25g tank is 1.5" taller than your neighbors 90g only goes to show that you have poor selection when i comes to purchasing a tank. it is common knowledge that a shallower tank allows more light to penetrate, better cooling through evap, and better gas exchange for the animals. BAM Link to comment
corey0613 Posted April 10, 2004 Share Posted April 10, 2004 i didnt select the tank, it was built into the wall of the home that we purchased. but i do have enough brains to have a 250W HQI above it for more than adequate light penetration. i feel sorry for you guy, man you just cant win!!! better luck next time. and cooling through evaparation is somewhat linked to depth of the tank, but more to surface aggitation. man you really need to read up. and it says your an aquarium service tech. poor customers. tell the truth is that corporate talk for pet co fish guy. hehe BAM, BAM, BAM Link to comment
corey0613 Posted April 10, 2004 Share Posted April 10, 2004 here is a pic of the tank. im not an aquarium service tech, but it seems to be doing fine to me. lets see what you got going! Link to comment
corey0613 Posted April 10, 2004 Share Posted April 10, 2004 readers beware. here is my blasto that is suffering from poor light penetration, lack of evaporation, and hypoxia! BAM, BAM, BAM, BAM, its like pickin off fish in a candy jar! Link to comment
birdman204 Posted April 10, 2004 Share Posted April 10, 2004 Originally posted by pyrrhus the only data i could find prior to this showed that PC had slightly lower PAR levels than that generated by halide but not enough to justify purchasing a whole new light rig. On , P.A.R. Photosynthetic Active Radiation right... Then graphs show UV Radiation distribution. These graphs clearly display PAR values for the UVA range... UVB is considered harmful to corals in aquaculture, hence the need to shield our animals from BE bulbs. Strength of the lights has a few factors. You seem to know many, but I will list a few out. For a 12" deep tank 150 will be plenty, -Dirtier water, may need a higher wattage bulb to cut thru the muck -Taller tanks -High light requiring animals... At least you can listen and understand, I do hope all works out for ya Pyrrhus Link to comment
pyrrhus Posted April 10, 2004 Share Posted April 10, 2004 no, not petco fish guy, one of the techs for the largest service company in AZ, with more references than one can count, Senator McCain, Drs. Spetzler and Dickman (world renowned brain surgeons) and former AZ Attorney general Grant Woods among others. I am very familiar with what Petco "specialists" are capable of doing as my company has had to pick up after them on several occasions, and Emeril, very nice tank! Link to comment
corey0613 Posted April 10, 2004 Share Posted April 10, 2004 yeah, you must be just starting there then to be so"in the dark" so to speak on basic lighting discussion. i probably shouldnt be hounding you rather helping you to get a better basis in reef keeping. its just kind of hard when you are so antagonistic. keep up the reading, everything in this hobby takes time and research to be successful. if you read first it helps eliminate the trail and error technique that so many reefers slip into @ the cost of the animals. Link to comment
pyrrhus Posted April 10, 2004 Share Posted April 10, 2004 thats why im here, to read up on various issues about reefkeeping, nanos in particular. luckily, (knock on wood) the only animal i have lost so far is an acro that i put into light shock by switching over to the 96w PC and caused an SDR in the animal now i have an 8 OZ piece of LR (very nice shape) that cost about $45. Link to comment
corey0613 Posted April 10, 2004 Share Posted April 10, 2004 my advice would be to be more humble when asking questions or stating views. i too was in your position once but i was never on the forums calling people out and starting ruckus over issues that i really wasnt that sure about. i still need to ask questions myself every once in a while and trust me people are much more receptive to helping you if treat them with a little dignity. good luck! Link to comment
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