Jump to content
cmagallon

Apex Base Controller Package "Group Buy"

Recommended Posts

reefcam

I just don't understandi if you didn't get a response from cmagallon, you couldn't have posted here.. Conrad sent out the invoice Monday evening (yes, I live 24x7 on e-mail) and sent the payment in. If you would have posted this Saturday evening, many of us would not have sent in the payment until we hear a confirmation the GB is official.

 

Just great business here.

 

MAP is minimum advertised price. If the advertised price is more than 1% below suggested list, the company is violating our terms, and we will not sell product to them. I first heard about the group buy on Thursday of last week. I PMed and emailed cmagallon on Thursday, Friday, and Saturday and told him that this was in violation of our terms. He didn't respond.

I was out of town on Sunday, Monday, and just returned late this afternoon. I saw the group buy was still going on, so I took action. I'm sorry that I didn't know about this sooner and could have stopped the GB before it got so far along.

 

Curt

Share this post


Link to post
reefcam

After reading through all the postings after Curt posted the notification that he will not make good on this offer and we should deal with Aquarium Works, I have a strong feeling this deal is a bust, unless Conrad have it in writing (i.e. Contract which can be in a form of e-mail) from Neptune that the group buy is okay and here's the price. Which I'm guess he has one. As this can be used as evidence in a court of law to make sure Neptune Systems make good on their promise.

 

But I feel going down the legal route will be long and drawn out without a good outcome except for the buyer and lots of head ache to Conrad and Curt.

 

My guess is Curt received a couple complaints from other vendors, maybe a large vendor like Marine Depot, about the group buy and decied that he will not honor this offer to us due to a complaint and lost of business from the vendor. This is not an individual sale, but a small bulk order which will help drive the increase in customer base. I recently bought my Apex from another vendor and spent over $700 for the system without a manual (check your e-mail and you'll know who I am) and you told me $10 for a replacement. But I don't need a replacement as I never received one. Get it?? To replace something is to have it in the beginning... I'm just asking for it to begin with. But will live with the posts on Reef Central for how to use it and the support of my local reefer.

 

Unless Conrad can work out the current deal with Neptune, I'm sure he'll be sending the payment back. But I hope Curt will honor this group buy purchase and stop future group buys to avoid issues like this.

 

Curt, who is your priority? Customers or vendors? If customers stop purchasing your product, do you think vendors will be buying your product? No vendors in their right might would carry products that sit on the shelf.

 

Ok... frustrated and annoyed by how Neptune started this issue.

Share this post


Link to post
reefcam

Thanks for the link.. the manual looks updated... will have to keep this site. Jackaninny provided a similar version of the manual too. :)

 

I just want Neptune Sys to do the right thing. But guess that'll be a stretch.

 

http://reeftech.webs.com/

 

 

FYI this is the "unofficial" users guide.

Share this post


Link to post
guia x

This was a huge turn of events. As a current Apex owner, it really saddens me that it came to this. In fact as happy as I am with my Apex and Neptune Systems in general, this really leaves a sour taste in my mouth. I cannot say I can continue to support Neptune with this kind of policy especially coming up with it so late when everyone has already sent their payments in. I have been thinking about upgrading my Aquacontroller Jr. to another Apex and would have joined this GB if I had some money to spare. Now I cannot say if I would stick with Nepture or look at other controllers. I really wish you would honor this GB Curt and then stop it from happening in the future. All these guys who joined this GB, as most have already stated, were pretty much on the fence about buying the Apex until this came along. This board is pretty much pro Digital Aquatics and the majority have ReefKeeper Lites and Elites. Granted there are only a handful of people that joined the GB, but everyone here are reading this and having such a negative outcome is sure to have a trickling effect on the board members. This will only help push them away from Neptune on to other companies, especially DA. Having these guys have their hands on the Apex will only help spread the word on how great the Apex is to everyone else on these boards and will still pretty much buy all the accessories or more units thru your vendors.

 

So Curt, please seriously rethink this situation very carefully. I doubt it will affect your other vendors that much to let this slip by, but I really think it will affect Neptune alot more. Either way, more than likely without this GB, the majority of the people on the list would probably not have bought from those vendors in the first place.

 

Please do the right thing.

Share this post


Link to post
CJO

Just a few points- I had looked at publicizing a group buy for Apex units on Reef Central. I asked Curt ahead of time if it was alright. He said that if he became aware of it, he was obligated to stop it.

 

There are likely a few reasons for this- One, he may have a contract with the vendors that says that they will have a certain profit margin on his product, hence the MAP. If someone undercuts this, it undermines the profitibility of his vendors and could start price wars. This is good for the consumer (at least initially), but not so good for the vendors and Neptune. From what I understand, the Apex does not have a huge margin to begin with. If it results in businesses closing, which may be a stretch, it could also be bad for the consumer in the long-term. Two, not allowing pricing below MAP keeps the brand from diluting. That's why you don't see sales on certain high-end brands in the mall.

 

CJ

Share this post


Link to post
acesq
Just a few points- I had looked at publicizing a group buy for Apex units on Reef Central. I asked Curt ahead of time if it was alright. He said that if he became aware of it, he was obligated to stop it.

 

There are likely a few reasons for this- One, he may have a contract with the vendors that says that they will have a certain profit margin on his product, hence the MAP. If someone undercuts this, it undermines the profitibility of his vendors and could start price wars. This is good for the consumer (at least initially), but not so good for the vendors and Neptune. From what I understand, the Apex does not have a huge margin to begin with. If it results in businesses closing, which may be a stretch, it could also be bad for the consumer in the long-term. Two, not allowing pricing below MAP keeps the brand from diluting. That's why you don't see sales on certain high-end brands in the mall.

 

CJ

 

I disagree with this analysis of MAP. It's legalized price fixing imposed by manufacturers to try to prevent retailers from engaging in competition with one another and thereby, in the long run, reduce the manufacturer's profit (big retailer says, I can only sell your product for x because all the discounters are advertising it lower than I am, therefore, if I am going to sell your product you have to sell them to me at a cheaper price point).

Also, MAP only dictates what a retailer can advertise its product for. The retailer can sell it for whatever he wants. How many internet sites tell you to put the product in your basket for checkout to see the real price. That process is designed to comply with the manufacturer's MAP policy.

In the long run, MAP suppresses competition. Whether you like it or not depends on your perspective. If Right now, I want to be a group buyer of the Apex. From my perspective it hurts.

Share this post


Link to post
ddwbeagles

Guys I'm in this for well over $800. Curt, what options do we have? Is there any middle ground, like increasing the sale price say 10% to get closer to Neptune's MAP pricing policy. There has to be some compromise for us to work this all out other than just a flat "NO" and stopping it this late in the game. Please don't punish us for this. The GB has been going on for over a month. I too posted on Neptune's /thread/page over on Reef Central asking could I spread the word about the GB here. You and/or your employees frequent that site literally daily. Yet, no employee of Neptune PM'd me then to gather information. It is LATE in this process to pull the plug and like everyone else has said. Who are you punishing? It's not the retailer, it's your future customers.

I did not pay with credit card and went through Palpay. I could get real screwed in this. I'm not blaming you at all, just asking for you re-evaluate all the circumstances here and think about the decision. There is not a huge amount of difference between the various controllers out there. Kind of like selling a new car close to invoice, realizing the profit will come later in the schedule and non scheduled maintenance of same. Please don't push us all to one of your compitors. You have a great unit, offer good customer support, but this will certainly put a sour taste in all our mouths. Word of mouth advertising is a powerful marketting stratigy, demonstrate that customer service you and your company are so well known for by reconsidering your decision. Please

 

Repectfully,

 

David Williams

Share this post


Link to post
96gts

Best post I have seen so far. It will be great if Neptune can work with us instead of just putting a stop to it so late in the process of the GB. Or maybe Curt can refer us to his preferred vendor that can do a GB. I think the only problem that Curt has with this GB is coz of the price been listed on a open forum. I have seen some GB that will only provide the prices via PM or email. Maybe that's the way to do it in any future GB.

 

I have also spend an extra $300 or so on dosers, wireless game adapter, ORP probe, etc, and they are already here or on the way. Just very disappointed in the whole process.

 

 

Guys I'm in this for well over $800. Curt, what options do we have? Is there any middle ground, like increasing the sale price say 10% to get closer to Neptune's MAP pricing policy. There has to be some compromise for us to work this all out other than just a flat "NO" and stopping it this late in the game. Please don't punish us for this. The GB has been going on for over a month. I too posted on Neptune's /thread/page over on Reef Central asking could I spread the word about the GB here. You and/or your employees frequent that site literally daily. Yet, no employee of Neptune PM'd me then to gather information. It is LATE in this process to pull the plug and like everyone else has said. Who are you punishing? It's not the retailer, it's your future customers.

I did not pay with credit card and went through Palpay. I could get real screwed in this. I'm not blaming you at all, just asking for you re-evaluate all the circumstances here and think about the decision. There is not a huge amount of difference between the various controllers out there. Kind of like selling a new car close to invoice, realizing the profit will come later in the schedule and non scheduled maintenance of same. Please don't push us all to one of your compitors. You have a great unit, offer good customer support, but this will certainly put a sour taste in all our mouths. Word of mouth advertising is a powerful marketting stratigy, demonstrate that customer service you and your company are so well known for by reconsidering your decision. Please

 

Repectfully,

 

David Williams

Share this post


Link to post
reefcam

At this point, the only thing I want to see/hear is:

 

1. The GB is going forward and Neptune will honor this GB

or

2. Everyone is getting their money back.

 

I don't know cmagallon, but if anyone on the board have local access to him, please contact him. I'm surprise he has not replyed to this forum with an update

Share this post


Link to post
FreakinReefin

The fact that everyone is harping this hard on Neptune is pointless. They have nothing to do with this GB. Curt, while surely could have given us a heads up sooner than he did, has an obligation to his company, his employees and his products as well as with his customers. MAP is created to maintain the brand and to establish proper operable profit margins to grow the company. Price fixing?? Give me a break. This is completely false. MAP is simply a standard that the product cannot be sold less than(like a reserve at an auction) and it is up to the retailer/reseller to increase or decrease their margins of profit as long as it does not go below the MAP(or at most by 1% according to Neptune's policy). Obviously I am pretty pissed off at the outcome of the GB, but this rage is more directed toward the facilitators who did not appropriate the proper channels. They should have contacted Neptune directly and received their permission to do this. This is more on the retailer's end above all. I have tried to call Aquarium Works and only receive a non personalized answering machine. Cmagallon is really being kind of a chump for not posting at all and I would hope that he is doing his best to resolve this, on our behalf, with the retailer. While I would love to see Neptune allow this to go through, they can't be blamed for the problem here...and remember, Neptune does not have our money right now, Aquarium Works does.

Edited by FreakinReefin

Share this post


Link to post
ddwbeagles

I don't know what is transpiring between Aquarium Works and Neptune as there has been no updates from any of them. My hope at this point is the silience is due to the fact that Cmagallon, Aquarium Works and Neptune systems are trying to reach an agreement.

 

Link below for some additional information. Not sure it help's our case or not, but some additional facts should they become necessary in future involvement/litigations.

 

 

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1833902

Share this post


Link to post
FreakinReefin

FYI...Last night I received this response from Aquarium Works regarding my PayPal dispute:

 

From Buyer - Joseph Shuckhart

5/4/2010 19:57 PDT

Please refund my money ASAP and this will not be pursued any further.

 

From Seller - Aquarium Works

5/4/2010 20:59 PDT

If this is regarding the email that I just got from a member stating neptune will not honor the group buy....I am going to look into it tomorrow, they were fully aware at the start. If you would still like a refund before I get answers, please email me again and I will issue refund ASAP. Thank you

------------------------------

 

This gives me some hope.

Share this post


Link to post
acesq
The fact that everyone is harping this hard on Neptune is pointless. They have nothing to do with this GB. Curt, while surely could have given us a heads up sooner than he did, has an obligation to his company, his employees and his products as well as with his customers. MAP is created to maintain the brand and to establish proper operable profit margins to grow the company. Price fixing?? Give me a break. This is completely false. MAP is simply a standard that the product cannot be sold less than(like a reserve at an auction) and it is up to the retailer/reseller to increase or decrease their margins of profit as long as it does not go below the MAP(or at most by 1% according to Neptune's policy). Obviously I am pretty pissed off at the outcome of the GB, but this rage is more directed toward the facilitators who did not appropriate the proper channels. They should have contacted Neptune directly and received their permission to do this. This is more on the retailer's end above all. I have tried to call Aquarium Works and only receive a non personalized answering machine. Cmagallon is really being kind of a chump for not posting at all and I would hope that he is doing his best to resolve this, on our behalf, with the retailer. While I would love to see Neptune allow this to go through, they can't be blamed for the problem here...and remember, Neptune does not have our money right now, Aquarium Works does.

 

Not true, MAP is Minimum Advertised Price, not minimum SALES price. It is illegal in the United States for a manufacturer to dictate the price at which its distributors can SELL a product. The law does allow the manufacturer to dictate the price at which it can be ADVERTISED. Two completely different concepts. Here's a little discussion of it: http://www.scottandscottllp.com/main/blogentry.aspx?id=1372

Aquarium Works can sell the product for the group buy price, or can give them away if they want. If Neptune Systems has a beef about the way it was advertised, then that's between it and Aquarium Works. We have a deal with Aquarium Works and its either has to honor it or return the money. (which is why cmagallon really has nothing to do with this either, he merely put the deal together for us) For Neptune Systems to inject itself into the deal, rather than dealing with its dealer separately is wrong. And bad business

Share this post


Link to post
JayG
FYI...Last night I received this response from Aquarium Works regarding my PayPal dispute:

 

From Buyer - Joseph Shuckhart

5/4/2010 19:57 PDT

Please refund my money ASAP and this will not be pursued any further.

 

From Seller - Aquarium Works

5/4/2010 20:59 PDT

If this is regarding the email that I just got from a member stating neptune will not honor the group buy....I am going to look into it tomorrow, they were fully aware at the start. If you would still like a refund before I get answers, please email me again and I will issue refund ASAP. Thank you

------------------------------

 

This gives me some hope.

 

I wonder if the post by Curt are not really from Curt at Neptune and someone that either has a lot of time on their hands or someone that is upset they missed out on the group buy. The posts made by Curt didn't really seem like they would come from a president of a company but you never know.

 

I guess all we can do is wait until we get an official announcement from Conrad or the vendor.

 

Jason

Share this post


Link to post
96gts

Just curious, did anyone contact Neptune?

Share this post


Link to post
FreakinReefin
Not true, MAP is Minimum Advertised Price, not minimum SALES price. It is illegal in the United States for a manufacturer to dictate the price at which its distributors can SELL a product. The law does allow the manufacturer to dictate the price at which it can be ADVERTISED. Two completely different concepts. Here's a little discussion of it: http://www.scottandscottllp.com/main/blogentry.aspx?id=1372

Aquarium Works can sell the product for the group buy price, or can give them away if they want. If Neptune Systems has a beef about the way it was advertised, then that's between it and Aquarium Works. We have a deal with Aquarium Works and its either has to honor it or return the money. (which is why cmagallon really has nothing to do with this either, he merely put the deal together for us) For Neptune Systems to inject itself into the deal, rather than dealing with its dealer separately is wrong. And bad business

 

True. My explanation was meant to be more simplistic, but yes the MAP is meant to give the perception of what the manufacturer wants their product to be sold at.

Share this post


Link to post
guia x
I wonder if the post by Curt are not really from Curt at Neptune and someone that either has a lot of time on their hands or someone that is upset they missed out on the group buy. The posts made by Curt didn't really seem like they would come from a president of a company but you never know.

 

I guess all we can do is wait until we get an official announcement from Conrad or the vendor.

 

Jason

 

No I think it's real. That is his username on RC. Someone would have to be really desperate or sick to do something like that.

Share this post


Link to post
ddwbeagles

...and not uncommon. Tunze (another great manufacturer) does this routinely. Sounds like Aquarium Works is trying to work this out. I'm staying in it for a few more days until we hear a final word from them. Call me crazy, and I may eat these words, there is hope yet.

Share this post


Link to post
Jepjep13

I live over 5 hours away from the vendor but had to go down there to pick up furniture with my brother. I planned to pay at the store front as they said that was fine. I'll ask what's up when I get there and post there reply here.

 

James

Share this post


Link to post
FreakinReefin
I wonder if the post by Curt are not really from Curt at Neptune and someone that either has a lot of time on their hands or someone that is upset they missed out on the group buy. The posts made by Curt didn't really seem like they would come from a president of a company but you never know.

 

I guess all we can do is wait until we get an official announcement from Conrad or the vendor.

 

Jason

 

I thought about that; however, his handle is "clp" which I could only imagine stands for Curt L. Pansegrau. Not sure about the middle initial but the current president of Neptune Systems is Curt Pansegrau.

Share this post


Link to post
lewk

Just talked to Jose at Aquarium Works, and this is indeed dead. Neptune killed it. The problem was this got too big, and other stores were complaining to Neptune. He is going to go through and start issuing refunds today. There was one person that sent in a check, and he said he will shred the check. Sucks all the way around.

Share this post


Link to post
RRaider

Actually, Neptune has no grounds to stand on here. They would if the vendor had advertised their product below their contract agreement, but the vendor has not advertised anything. IMO Neptune is acting in bad faith and trying to control what it is illegal for them to control which is the final selling price.

Share this post


Link to post
acesq
Actually, Neptune has no grounds to stand on here. They would if the vendor had advertised their product below their contract agreement, but the vendor has not advertised anything. IMO Neptune is acting in bad faith and trying to control what it is illegal for them to control which is the final selling price.

 

I agree. Unfortunately, as wrong as it is, by simply refusing to ship the product to Joe, Neptune Systems will win this dispute. When I paid at the store yesterday he told me he was going to order them starting today, and had let Neptune Systems aware some time ago that he would be placing a large order so they could get the units ready, so he has nothing to deliver.

 

The victory will come at some cost to Neptune System's reputation, however. And its bottom line, many of us will be looking elsewhere for their controller needs.

Share this post


Link to post
ddwbeagles
The victory will come at some cost to Neptune System's reputation, however. And its bottom line, many of us will be looking elsewhere for their controller needs.

 

+1 here. I can not express how PISSED I am about this. :angry: I may of been discouraged if this would of occured two weeks ago, but to do it after we paid, is wrong on so many levels. I again refer you to the RC thread I posted earlier (post #212). Afterall, RC does seem to be their primary customer relations point and there was clear notice/signs of this tanking place. They had over three weeks to get involved and knew the price these were being sold for!!!! Unforgivable in my book!!!

 

Had it happened earlier I would of just shopped for an APEX unit elsewhere, but now...........

Anyway, sorry fellow GB members and Conrad I know this isn't your fault either. Live and learn I guess.

Edited by ddwbeagles

Share this post


Link to post
  • Recommended Discussions

×
×
  • Create New...