Chaeto Dieing off

[Mr. Fosi]

A summary of my Chaetomorpha crassa observations:

 

- Does not do well in systems younger than 2 months (sometimes up to 5 months is required).

- Dies (or fades) when heated directly by radiant heat from MH/halogen lamps, heaters or other such sources.

- Tolerates cold very well until it reaches freezing temps.

- Grows slowly (i.e. doesn't die) in low-nutrient environments.

- Like higher plants, it displays different growth morphologies when grown under different colors of light.

- Generally impossible to kill, though in some situations kicks over with no apparent cause; virtually always in systems younger than 6 months.

- Can survive for prolonged periods without light.

 

I grow mine under a 20W halogen (xenon) puck and it grows like gangbusters. It tends to fade translucent right under the light where it is hottest and the light is most intense, but recovers when I turn the mass over.

[frahny]

A summary of my Chaetomorpha crassa observations:

 

- Does not do well in systems younger than 2 months (sometimes up to 5 months is required).

- Dies (or fades) when heated directly by radiant heat from MH/halogen lamps, heaters or other such sources.

- Tolerates cold very well until it reaches freezing temps.

- Grows slowly (i.e. doesn't die) in low-nutrient environments.

- Like higher plants, it displays different growth morphologies when grown under different colors of light.

- Generally impossible to kill, though in some situations kicks over with no apparent cause; virtually always in systems younger than 6 months.

- Can survive for prolonged periods without light.

 

I grow mine under a 20W halogen (xenon) puck and it grows like gangbusters. It tends to fade translucent right under the light where it is hottest and the light is most intense, but recovers when I turn the mass over.

Well that makes a ton of sense due to the fact that on both sides of the Chaeto I have a 100W hydor! Looks like i have some redesigning to do! Top Notch FOSI! and thanks again

[scubasteve2580]

ScubaSteve, what are you using to feed your refugium? It seems counter-productive to me to add nutrients to the tank if the sole purpose of a refugium is to remove nutrients from the water column??

 

I could see dropping pellets or some mysis in there if there were shrimp or other large inverts living in there...

i feed marine cuisine at lights out. the purpose is to feed my bugs.. if you have a good healthy refugium there will be tons of bugs in it. they get sucked into the return and fed to my coral. or other bugs in the tank.. since i dont have any fish i have to keep some kind of nutrients going in order to keep my macro's going as well. refugiums serve many purposes. helps to keep the tank params stable at night, helps to feed the tank, adds more water volume in my case, gives me a place to do top off and water changes without disturbing the main tank... and last but not least, it feeds the disease. something else i get to play with

[bitts]

+1 for the 5k bulbs and from my experience, may need changed out every 9-10 months for really good growth.

 

fosi am i right in thinkin that fuges do best with high flow to keep things from settling, but low turnover to improve dwell time and thus nutrient uptake by the macro. so really its both types of flow.

[cptbjorn]

When my chaeto fills up my HOB filter fuge and I pull it out for pruning there is a round indentation in the back from my heater, it grows all around it and no dead spots except for where it has grown out of the water. I think it is due to the high flow in that area that keeps any local warm/hot spots from forming.

 

I can't see how it would benefit from lower flow though, I think if anything it will get more nutrient contact with higher flow not lower.

[CassiusClay]

i feed marine cuisine at lights out. the purpose is to feed my bugs.. if you have a good healthy refugium there will be tons of bugs in it. they get sucked into the return and fed to my coral. or other bugs in the tank.. since i dont have any fish i have to keep some kind of nutrients going in order to keep my macro's going as well. refugiums serve many purposes. helps to keep the tank params stable at night, helps to feed the tank, adds more water volume in my case, gives me a place to do top off and water changes without disturbing the main tank... and last but not least, it feeds the disease. something else i get to play with

i know how you feel i stare at my 'fuge ALOT once the light go out on my display but my point here is, i feed my fuge as well... however i stick to powdered HIGH QUALITY(key phrase) flake food once a week and once a week i also drip some live phyto my LSF owner is so generous to give me small bags of when i make my stop

[Mr. Fosi]

fosi am i right in thinkin that fuges do best with high flow to keep things from settling, but low turnover to improve dwell time and thus nutrient uptake by the macro.

 

I've heard this before here and on other forums, but I've never been able to come up with a good line of reasoning to support it.

 

Your display is a nutrient source and (in this discussion at least) the sump/refugium is supposed to be the nutrient sink. It therefore seems to me that to maximize nutrient removal, you want the water to move efficiently from source to sink.

 

You don't want your sink to become depleted relative to the source, because that would indicate an inefficient transfer of nutrients and a lower than maximum uptake rate. But these are the very things that the low-turnover folks seem to advocate.

 

I personally have a low-flow sump (100-150 gph through a 10g), designed to both grow macroalgae and facilitate settling of particles. I like the idea of my sump being the a gathering place of detritus because it is the perfect place for sponges, worms and pods to flourish. The chaeto provides a matrix of habitat space and way to really diffuse the flow and cause particles to drop out.

 

My middle chamber fills up with chaeto in ~3-4 weeks, which is enough to keep my N and P undetectable. It has also accumulated 0.5-1 cm of detrital substrate since I started it.

[Mudfish]

It has also accumulated 0.5-1 cm of detrital substrate since I started it.

 

 

And you're not bothering to remove this detritus? Are you seeing it as habitat?

[scubasteve2580]

And you're not bothering to remove this detritus? Are you seeing it as habitat?

im not so sure that having detritis in the sump is such a bad thing. there are more than enough factors plaing a role. detrivours and macros will keep it in check. im glad someone has said something abotu this because ive seriously been wandering if settling debri wouldnt actually become a "mud" over time....

 

I've heard this before here and on other forums, but I've never been able to come up with a good line of reasoning to support it.

 

Your display is a nutrient source and (in this discussion at least) the sump/refugium is supposed to be the nutrient sink. It therefore seems to me that to maximize nutrient removal, you want the water to move efficiently from source to sink.

 

You don't want your sink to become depleted relative to the source, because that would indicate an inefficient transfer of nutrients and a lower than maximum uptake rate. But these are the very things that the low-turnover folks seem to advocate.

 

I personally have a low-flow sump (100-150 gph through a 10g), designed to both grow macroalgae and facilitate settling of particles. I like the idea of my sump being the a gathering place of detritus because it is the perfect place for sponges, worms and pods to flourish. The chaeto provides a matrix of habitat space and way to really diffuse the flow and cause particles to drop out.

 

My middle chamber fills up with chaeto in ~3-4 weeks, which is enough to keep my N and P undetectable. It has also accumulated 0.5-1 cm of detrital substrate since I started it.

i have 10X's turnover with both of my refugiums and have added a power head to the one under my main tank. this works out good because there is a constant water motion in the sump to ensure macr-nutrient uptake. i agree with the low flow tank refugium transfer. at the same time i have seen an increase in growth from the chaeto with the added tank circulation.

 

i know how you feel i stare at my 'fuge ALOT once the light go out on my display but my point here is, i feed my fuge as well... however i stick to powdered HIGH QUALITY(key phrase) flake food once a week and once a week i also drip some live phyto my LSF owner is so generous to give me small bags of when i make my stop

i have some sps food in powder form. man that stuff cause the worst algae bloom in my little tank. of course that was before refugium. i like to add the solid meaty foods so that my refugium inhabitants are sure to get something to eat.. by the way the other day i witnessed a 1/2" amphipod and a bristleworm having a serious tu-o-war match over a piece of marine cuisine.

[Mr. Fosi]

And you're not bothering to remove this detritus? Are you seeing it as habitat?

 

I don't see a reason for removing it. I see it as part habitat, part food.

 

Habitat for anerobic bacteria and it certainly does do that. 1 mm or so below the surface is black with metal sulfides. It also serves as food for them since a lot of the detrital matter is organic carbon.

 

I am sure that it provides habitat for other macro inverts as well, which is also a good thing IMO.

 

this works out good because there is a constant water motion in the sump to ensure macr-nutrient uptake... i have seen an increase in growth from the chaeto with the added tank circulation.

 

You'll have uptake as long as there is sufficient light and any water motion at all. That you have seen increased growth is interesting... I'm happy with mine.

[scubasteve2580]

You'll have uptake as long as there is sufficient light and any water motion at all. That you have seen increased growth is interesting... I'm happy with mine.

naturally youll have uptake but if you get a higher turnover (not wave action or anything like that) especially with chaeto, it only make sense that the further into the ball of chaeto the water can penetrate, the better nutrient uptake and faster growth. of course i could be way off. ive been known to be wrong a time or two

[Mr. Fosi]

I get the idea of distributing nutrients into the chaeto mass, but I've found it unnecessary for fast growth. Glad it's working for you.

[scubasteve2580]

I get the idea of distributing nutrients into the chaeto mass, but I've found it unnecessary for fast growth. Glad it's working for you.

the main reason for aiming a power head through it was because the wad of chaeto is to big to spin. which aso means i have to turn it over every week

[amnesiak]

I have very slow flow through my fuge. I also have a 10g sump, about 5g of that is fuge. My tank is a month old. My chaeto has quadrupled in size (starting about baseball-sized) in 3 weeks. My system, of course, isn't rock solid in age yet, but what I've done with my chaeto seems to have worked extremely well.

 

My first thought on your lighting was WHOA. Mine is very happy under 2 13W 5500k compact fluorescent bulbs on 24/7. I think you might be wasting energy with your fuge lighting, at the very least!

[frahny]

I have very slow flow through my fuge. I also have a 10g sump, about 5g of that is fuge. My tank is a month old. My chaeto has quadrupled in size (starting about baseball-sized) in 3 weeks. My system, of course, isn't rock solid in age yet, but what I've done with my chaeto seems to have worked extremely well.

 

My first thought on your lighting was WHOA. Mine is very happy under 2 13W 5500k compact fluorescent bulbs on 24/7. I think you might be wasting energy with your fuge lighting, at the very least!

Thank you for the input I just went through your thread very nice! As for the chaeto I am almost certain that the die off had to do with a multitude of things. first off the nitrates before I add put chaeto in were at 5ppm and thats with giving a ppm or two, the flow rate was nothing close to 60-80 GPH, and it sat in between 2 100W Hydor heaters.

 

I will still keep the flow rate the same from the fuge to the display, However I have created a sort of closed loop in the refugium with an old 402 powerhead. So hopefully this will help give me best of both worlds. I will be looking into some different bulbs and have moved the heaters to the first comparment ( my 10g is devided into 3 compartments as well. So hopefully I will beable to get so decent growth

[amnesiak]

Let me know how that powerhead-in-the-fuge for circulation works for you. I might try it myself if it seems to do well!

[scubasteve2580]

ive had my sump set up now for justa couple of weeks max. probably a week and a half. my chaeto has tripled (literally) in size. since ive started the refugium, really cool stuff has started happening. about 3 days ago i started noticing particulate matter in suspension in the display.. the funny part is that i pulled the filter sock off last night.. there is a little more after pulling the filter sock off but not much.. anyway, since this crap started floating around in the tank ive noticed really sick polyp extension. i recall one of these blooms happening a few weeks back and my prange digitata grew 1/4" in 8 days. that's a 1/4" on each branch. thats not mentioning all the new nubs it put out. i dont believe these blooms to be harmful in fact, i honestly believe it is a mix of bacteria colonized detritis and pod larvae.. naturally occuring plankton... i can look in this massive ball of chaeto and it is plum filled with amphipods.. i love my refugium

[frahny]

Let me know how that powerhead-in-the-fuge for circulation works for you. I might try it myself if it seems to do well!

well after 3 weeks my chaeto is double in size from when I even originally purchased it.. Two things i know for sure the lighting works fine and the flow was the issue! the little 402 ph creates enough flow to keep it moving!

 

Thanks all