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Anemone Life Span in Aquariums


Orangutran

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Off topic but Mike's statements have me concerned about my own anemone. She just split and both are healing on track and should be ready to take food in a few more days but... I do run a reef tank with high turbulent flow so perhaps an anemone is not a good choice for me... How do I get them to detach from the rocks safely? When its glass its a snap but one is on a rock in a crevasse that would be hard to get a credit card into. Would ice applied to the foot work?

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nanoreefnate

NO!!! do not use ice. that would be WAY to stressful.

 

anyways idk why everyones fusing about nems in reef tanks.

 

i totally agree with mike but i have had my anemone for about 1.5 years now. its a Seabae and has survived thru 2 tank transfers and 3 independent in tank moves (manual moves)

 

ATM it is doing fine and is expanding to the biggest it has ever.

 

its just my experience though...

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I was reading some reef site last night and had a small article on anemone life spans. Some can live centuries. Hope you keep your tank that long...

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I'd also like to recommend that if you can always purchase captive bred anemones if you can. You can almost always find a captive bred bubble tip from a friend or local reef club if you look hard enough. I try to buy all captive bred fish and corals so we aren't removing them from the wild and by doing so encourage vendors to start propagating their own fish and corals.

+1

I'm pretty sure all my coral and fish were raised in captivity and as a result I believe they are hardier in addition to having zero impact on the ocean.

 

Also +1 to species tanks for anemones. Mine did fine and even split while in my main display with all my coral but it did cause havoc and stung a few corals nearly to death. Both nems are now in a viewable sump with nothing but macros and nuisance coral (i.e. GSP, xenia and yellow polyps) and everything looks much happier, plus it's a load off my mind.

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kamikaze_fish

I expect to be flamed for this because it sounds like such a stupid question but I have to ask anyway.

 

If they don't age, and if they can live and have been "known" to live for hundreds of years, where does that data come from?

Reefing has come a long ways in the past 10 years or heck, in the past 5 years, so to say "who has kept one for over 5 years successfully" isn't quite a fair statement since many people in the hobby, haven't been around for 5 years.

I agree too that the ones that do survive several years, people probably pass them on, sell them, etc. Who's to say there aren't some out there that have lived easily 10 years but has been in 4 different reef tanks?

 

I'm not trying to discredit the information brought here about them being difficult. These are just the thoughts and questions I had while reading this thread. It's a good thread.

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I expect to be flamed for this because it sounds like such a stupid question but I have to ask anyway.

 

If they don't age, and if they can live and have been "known" to live for hundreds of years, where does that data come from?

Reefing has come a long ways in the past 10 years or heck, in the past 5 years, so to say "who has kept one for over 5 years successfully" isn't quite a fair statement since many people in the hobby, haven't been around for 5 years.

I agree too that the ones that do survive several years, people probably pass them on, sell them, etc. Who's to say there aren't some out there that have lived easily 10 years but has been in 4 different reef tanks?

 

I'm not trying to discredit the information brought here about them being difficult. These are just the thoughts and questions I had while reading this thread. It's a good thread.

 

I think the more important way to look at the info is the other side. Even if there are say 1000 anemones out there that have lived for 5-10+ years, there are 10000 that have not. It is true that there are alot of people who have been in the hobby less than say 5 years but how many of them have had and killed an anemone in less than 1? I have! I had a Condi anemone for almost 1 year exactly that was thriving. I got him from deathco because I was new and the salesman told me it was a good choice (what a surprise). It was bleached and tiny but I nursed it back to health. It browned up and grew to the size of a small dinner plate only so I could get a koralia without a sponge around it and it got sucked in and shreaded.

My point is and I swear I have one. Until the success rate with them gets a little better, the opinion for a lot of people will remain that they are better suited for the wild or those who have had great success with them. Just my 2 cents!

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The reason I tend to make such blanket statements as "anemones do not belong in reef tanks" has to do with the fact that anemones will usually kill coral, and then at some point be sucked into some form of water movement device. This doesn't mean an anemone can't be kept in a 'reef garden' type of aquarium, but for most aquarists, it simply isn't a good idea.

 

There was a paper published a while back about ritteri anemone aging. Google's Scholar search should bring up at least a few publications regarding this topic.

 

Matty0206 makes a good point. Not all of the time, but the vast majority of the time, an anemone is usually placed in an ill-suited home, and does not survive for any significant length of time.

 

Marteen makes a good point, as well - captive bred BTA's and RBTAs can usually be found with a little looking. Although wild collecting is both good and bad, depending on how it's done, and from where.

 

I am generally opposed to the large scale importation of species that have little-to-none known fecundity and population information, and when coupled with a generally abysmal survival rate, I encourage everyone to not purchase anemones lightly.

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kamikaze_fish

I do think these points are good points, but the next question then, is how to prevent the problem? I know it's difficult and widespread but there has to be a way. Best I could come up with is maybe there should be an agency that is responsible for making sure anenomes that pet stores sell, come with paperwork to prove their origination?

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Just wanted to add my experience. I bought a bleached sebae 1.5inches in diameter from petco none the less. In 6 months it was about 10inches in diameter, to big for my tank so I gave him to someone with a bigger tank. I had to use 2 gallons of water in a huge bag inside a styrofoam box to move him. He was a a pretty golden brown when he got moved to a 90gal.

 

This was my first ever anemone by the way, when I just got into the hobby. The main problem with anemones dying is 75% of the people that buy them do no research and just want "nemo to have a home".

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I do think these points are good points, but the next question then, is how to prevent the problem? I know it's difficult and widespread but there has to be a way. Best I could come up with is maybe there should be an agency that is responsible for making sure anenomes that pet stores sell, come with paperwork to prove their origination?

 

The reality is, it won't happen - there's no incentive financially, and no outcry from hobbyists to do so.

 

Nemmy, grats on your success! I spent nearly a year nursing a bleached bta back to health, and succeeded..only to have it die during hurricane Ike, another anemone lost...

 

Rising fuel prices and increased legislation will eventually force the hobby to move towards what can be propagated 'en masse' in facilities state-side. I would venture to say the currently common practice of importing mass amounts of wild caught livestock is going to cease within five years, for better or for worse, and these animals will no longer be collected/available.

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Hummm... Sorry Mike but I have to disagree.

 

I have been looking quite a bit into the CITES treaty and the statement that there is no point of origin/collection paperwork is not true.

 

If any sea life comes into the US or other countries who are signatories without the appropriate Customs forms including CITES paperwork then it considered smuggled/contraband goods and gets confiscated and everyone up and down the line faces fines, loss of license, etc. Then the animal is donated to a local aquarium.

 

For example the coral display at the Aquarium of the Pacific in Long Beach Ca is all from colonies seized by Customs at LAX and San Diego International. The colonies in the display's have reached sizes that are only found in the wild with colors only found in our tanks.

 

My point is that each animal is tracked if it is brought here legally and the best way to stop the wild anemone trade is to have them made a protected species under CITES. The process and procedure is already in place. There is no need to invent something new.

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i agree with mike in that we have already seen Congress propose a bill to eliminate and make illegal all possessions of pets. who knows what they will do next? i also think that countries that importers are getting their coral from will eventually realize what has happened to their beautiful reefs ( just as Tonga has) and will ban all export of live corals and such. i mean even the Philippines only allows fish and dead rock to be exported.

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I got my baby RBTA from a NR member. It was about the size of a quater, and my tank is less than perfect. It's now about 5 inches long in less than 5 months.

 

+1 to buying tank raised, helps environment, and the specimens are hardy.

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i agree with mike in that we have already seen Congress propose a bill to eliminate and make illegal all possessions of pets. who knows what they will do next? i also think that countries that importers are getting their coral from will eventually realize what has happened to their beautiful reefs ( just as Tonga has) and will ban all export of live corals and such. i mean even the Philippines only allows fish and dead rock to be exported.

Not sure what you meant by "even the Philippines" but they do allow the export of fish and inverts, including anemones. Interesting too that I see many anemones on every dive I make there.

In my opinion the biggest risk to the reefs there is fish collection for food (the number of fish caught and eaten is orders of magnitude greater than the live ones shipped out) and coral reefs damaged from cucumber hunters, again for export to other asian countries for food.

Remember that the vast majority of corals on a reef are either brown, or too large for use in an aquarium.

Also, while I'm at it, I've heard many statements about since anemones "live forever" (don't ask a butterflyfish about that) so we shouldn't collect them, but no one seems to think it's wrong to collect a Porites or Favites, which huge specimens can be cored and aged at over a thousand years old, , while the confirmation of age in an anemone is pretty thin.

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Hummm... Sorry Mike but I have to disagree.

 

I have been looking quite a bit into the CITES treaty and the statement that there is no point of origin/collection paperwork is not true.

 

If any sea life comes into the US or other countries who are signatories without the appropriate Customs forms including CITES paperwork then it considered smuggled/contraband goods and gets confiscated and everyone up and down the line faces fines, loss of license, etc. Then the animal is donated to a local aquarium.

 

For example the coral display at the Aquarium of the Pacific in Long Beach Ca is all from colonies seized by Customs at LAX and San Diego International. The colonies in the display's have reached sizes that are only found in the wild with colors only found in our tanks.

 

My point is that each animal is tracked if it is brought here legally and the best way to stop the wild anemone trade is to have them made a protected species under CITES. The process and procedure is already in place. There is no need to invent something new.

 

Don't misunderstand me, I have a lot of respect for CITES and feel the organization works very well. In fact, I know all about CITES - I directly import livestock from collection locales, and have to have the applicable permits and ensure the paperwork is in proper order to bring the livestock into the states. What I meant was that this information rarely (if ever) finds its way to the hobbyist, who is real decision-maker in the supply chain in terms of what's collected and what's not! Plus, CITES lists are often 'behind the times' and tend to change slowly (bluefin & yellow tuna come to mind...).

 

Not sure what you mean by "inventing something new"?

 

I've long thought anemone species should be made illegal to import/sell commercially by CITES, but no luck yet (but they're finally considering adding Tuna!). As I said, I think it will be fuel prices that will really change this hobby in the next few years, especially combined with the increased CITES and Fish & Wildlife tariffs on imported livestock. Shipping and tariffs are already 75% of livestock prices, imagine what it will be when gas hits $5/gallon sometime in the next year or two!

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Don't misunderstand me, I have a lot of respect for CITES and feel the organization works very well. In fact, I know all about CITES - I directly import livestock from collection locales, and have to have the applicable permits and ensure the paperwork is in proper order to bring the livestock into the states. What I meant was that this information rarely (if ever) finds its way to the hobbyist, who is real decision-maker in the supply chain in terms of what's collected and what's not! Plus, CITES lists are often 'behind the times' and tend to change slowly (bluefin & yellow tuna come to mind...).

 

Ah. I see what you mean. Yes it does change slowly. But thats more a function of bureaucracy than anything else. Getting all the votes, building the coalitions, doing the studies, covering one's arse etc.

 

My point about CITES is that when a creature is placed on the list for non-export the supply dries up completely. Anyone caught importing it gets major fines and the like. There is no need to create another bureaucracy to put out warnings on what is and isn't endangered or what comes from where and how. It is a matter of better publishing that information.

 

Since you do direct import from collection stations then you know that in order to get a shipment from say Bali you have to have Customs clearance here in the US as well as CITES documentation so everything you need to give the retail customer information on the item purchased is right there at your fingertips.

 

That is what I mean by something new. Again its already in place the data just needs to be published. We don't need a Department of Publishing Sea Dwelling Creatures Collection Point Consumer Information Service to do it.

 

I've long thought anemone species should be made illegal to import/sell commercially by CITES, but no luck yet (but they're finally considering adding Tuna!). As I said, I think it will be fuel prices that will really change this hobby in the next few years, especially combined with the increased CITES and Fish & Wildlife tariffs on imported livestock. Shipping and tariffs are already 75% of livestock prices, imagine what it will be when gas hits $5/gallon sometime in the next year or two!

 

Heheh. Yeah. Thats very true. The thing is there is CITES is in a difficult position. On the one hand the UN wants to see the economies of "third world" nations improve so that all the associated health and human services factors improve (infant mortality, lack of education, disease, poverty, etc) but on the other they have a responsibility to safeguard species and habitats that are threatened with extinction. How do you look a Collection Station employee in the eye and tell him that his whole village is going without food because he can no longer collect Carpet Anemone's and charge $200 US for them? It doesn't play well locally or internationally except in the small segment of population in first world countries who are "environmentally conscious" and care enough to protest.

 

Ultimately I would like to see allot more sustainable aquaculture of fish, invertebrate, and coral species than wild collection. Along the lines of what was done with giant clams back in the 80's. Back then it was all wild caught clams (mostly used as a food source and still is) and the wild population was being decimated. Then (I don't remember the branch) of the UN put out a paper outlining how local commercial farming of the clams could be conducted coupled with grants for setting up the farms. This took substantial pressure off the wild population and provided a source of income. This, to me, seems very simple in application to do with other forms of wildlife if the time and resources were dedicated to it. The old give a man a fish vs. teach a man to fish.

 

The key is to avoid what happens now where there is a concentration of pollutants due to fish farming in one location. Looking specifically at Anemones I believe the statistics show that one can create some 2,000 anemones yearly or 5 anemones a day from a single parent via splitting and cutting. More than enough when scaled up slightly to cover the demand in the world for these animals.

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I didn't write that - Merritt did, my better half! :)

 

Good post, Urchin, and I definitely agree - it's not a black and white issue, that's for sure.

 

The CITES information is usually available to the importer, but (usually) never makes it past that stage. I don't sell to the public, in fact, I only import for my own and my clients needs, and more so that I know exactly where everything is coming from than any other reason. My point is that the info usually doesn't even make it to the wholesalers, much less to the store owners or to the hobbyist. If hobbyists were to present a demand for the information, it would start to be passed along, but such isn't the case (at least presently).

 

Oh, and collectors get a few dollars for blue/purple/red carpet anemones, the importer sells them for $25 to the wholesaler, the wholesaler charges $75-125, the retailer $200-500. Keep in mind, each group is having to recoup shipping and other fees, as well as make a profit.

 

To keep things on topic, anemones don't make up the bulk of animals collected, luckily, so I don't think prohibiting the collection would change a lot in terms of reducing a collectors' income.

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I didn't write that - Merritt did, my better half! :)

 

Good post, Urchin, and I definitely agree - it's not a black and white issue, that's for sure.

 

Thank you. And you as well.

 

The CITES information is usually available to the importer, but (usually) never makes it past that stage. I don't sell to the public, in fact, I only import for my own and my clients needs, and more so that I know exactly where everything is coming from than any other reason. My point is that the info usually doesn't even make it to the wholesalers, much less to the store owners or to the hobbyist. If hobbyists were to present a demand for the information, it would start to be passed along, but such isn't the case (at least presently).

 

Humm... I believe that the folks on 104th street all have to have corresponding CITES paperwork on file for the shipments they get. Those folks being the wholesalers. Have to in case they either get something in shipment that wasn't on the forms and/or are inspected.

 

Oh, and collectors get a few dollars for blue/purple/red carpet anemones, the importer sells them for $25 to the wholesaler, the wholesaler charges $75-125, the retailer $200-500. Keep in mind, each group is having to recoup shipping and other fees, as well as make a profit.

 

I *WISH* it were that cheap. I got to sneak a peek at a Collection Station's price list and a red carpet was going for $200 on top of the shipping, box, Customs, CITES, etc fees. Perhaps that was because it was a supply constrained item and they were marking up accordingly or they were aware of trends and it was unusual but I don't know since I have no way to baseline it against more samples.

 

And I have found that the typical LFS markup is about 100-200% on an item so if local LFS's were asking $600+ for a good sized one it tracks that if the CA was $200 at the collection station. The actual collector working for the station of course is paid substantially less but at the same time the fee paid for it would be better than dirt farming.

 

To keep things on topic, anemones don't make up the bulk of animals collected, luckily, so I don't think prohibiting the collection would change a lot in terms of reducing a collectors' income.

 

I agree. But ultimately the damage done by collecting a wild one isn't just limited in scope to the anemone itself. Odds are there is a clownfish pair that is now without a home, the filtration feeding done by that anemone will unbalance the rest of the food web, etc.

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