AZDesertRat Posted February 27, 2009 Share Posted February 27, 2009 So was the turning the DI vertical, it makes a world of difference! Maybe not as efficient as a true 10" canister type vertical DI with a cartridge designed to hold DI resin but much better than the original orientation. Good points. Link to comment
TriggerHappyDude Posted February 27, 2009 Author Share Posted February 27, 2009 Ok so the DI are the two tubes on top of the 3 canisters, that are laying horizontal right now in my pictures? I kind of like how they are right now and the unit is all nice and neat and installed. Are they that bad in the horizontal position? Link to comment
AZDesertRat Posted February 27, 2009 Share Posted February 27, 2009 Horizontal DI's are very inefficient, you do not see them on any of the true Reef Quality RO/DI systems. Some, mostly what I call e-bay type vendors like them because they are very inexpensive plus they like to use the magic word "STAGES" like its a miracle word or something. Two little hollow tubes become two additional "stages" along with the little horizontal granular carbon taste and odor filter which only gets used for drinking water tastes and odors and should be pitched if you are making RO/DI water since it adds TDS back into the treated water. What in reality can be accomplished with 4 stages, and is in fact all that are supplied in many high end reef systems they call 5, 6 or 7 stages and promote it as being superior when in fact it is less than optimal. One single 10" vertical canister with a refillable 10" DI cartridge is far superior to two of the small horizontals since it not only hold more resin in most cases, it also provides better contact time, performs better and lasts longer. DI resin shrinks slightly with use which is why I say pack the resin as tightly as you can. In a horizontal it starts to bob around as it loosens up so not all water comes into contact with the resin and short circuits or bypasses the treatment process. With a properly packed vertical you get much better flow characteristics and contact providing better treatment and better utilization of the resin. Turning the small tubes vertical gets you closer to this efficiency although it is still not the same. What I normally recommend to people who buy units with horizontal DI(s) and has two carbon canisters is to eliminate one carbon cartridge and replumb that extra 10" vertical canister so it now contains a refillable DI cartridge. All it costs is a few bucks for a refillable cartridge and a few John Guest 1/4" speed fittings but you maye even have enough fittings with what you have. Now you end up with a true DI filter. Two carbons are again a hold over from the days when carbon technology was not what it is today and it took two GAC carbons or two high micron blocks to treat more than a few hundred gallons of water. Todays 0.5 or 0.6 micron Chlorine Guzzler Matrikx+1 from KD can treat up to 20,000 gallons of normally chlorinated or chloraminated water with a single block versus as little as 300 total gallons from some ebay quality carbons. Yes that includes chloramines, no special filters are needed and with the improved DI the ammonia portion of the chloramines is treated much better to. The DI is actually more critical than the carbon since most any carbon will break down and remove the chlorine portion of chloramines but some poor efficiency DI systems will not treat all the ammonia that is left over. Very important to know if your utility uses chloramines, about 30% of ther utilities do today. Link to comment
TriggerHappyDude Posted February 27, 2009 Author Share Posted February 27, 2009 Now you tell me this after I purchased the horizontal one from ebay! Oh and thanks for going WAY over my head with all that technical talk...jeez. Link to comment
Scott Riemer Posted February 27, 2009 Share Posted February 27, 2009 Now you tell me this after I purchased the horizontal one from ebay! Oh and thanks for going WAY over my head with all that technical talk...jeez. lol, AZ is very knowledgeable. Him and I disagree when it comes to his strong bias against the ebay unit. It's not all doom and gloom. I ran my unit over a year with the DI cartridges horizontal and still got 0TDS water. I simply suggested turning them vertical because it will increase the efficiency. Link to comment
Phixion Posted February 27, 2009 Share Posted February 27, 2009 DI channeling is teh devil!! I still have yet to turn mine, but I need to change out my resin anyways, so it's as good of excuse as any to do this. have you done it yet Scott, and if so PICS?!? Also Trigger, definitely shut off at the ball valve on the RO/DI unit. As far as sutting off the supply source valve, that's totally upto you. I always shut mine off anyways out of habit as the auto-shut-off valve with the RO/DI unit should automaticall stop water production once the ball-valve dispenser that came with it is shut off. Link to comment
Scott Riemer Posted February 27, 2009 Share Posted February 27, 2009 DI channeling is teh devil!! I still have yet to turn mine, but I need to change out my resin anyways, so it's as good of excuse as any to do this. have you done it yet Scott, and if so PICS?!? I just got some new resin in the GB from BRS. I'm hoping to find some time this weekend to make some adjustments. The main issue I think would be adding a piece of tubing, otherwise one of the DI chambers will be upside down. Link to comment
AZDesertRat Posted February 27, 2009 Share Posted February 27, 2009 The bias against ebay quality units is based on bench testing done not only by myself but others much smarter than myself. They may appear similar in some cases but when you set a quality unit and an ebay unit side by side the differences start to become obvious. Things like non NSF or UPC approved canisters and housings, low quality compression fittings vs John Guest speed fittings, no name non rated prefilters and carbons with no micron or chlorine capacity ratings, plastic brackets vs metal brackets, non liquid filled pressure gauges if they have a gauge at all, orfice type non adjustable flow restrictors, no TDS meters, opened and exposed to air DI resin vs vacuum sealed in foil DI cartridges or resin, the list goes on and on. You really do get what you pay for with RO/DI systems. What may "work" for someone in an area with a TDS of 50 would never pass muster in Phoenix with a TDS over 800. I would go broke buying DI resin! Yes I spent more on my system initially but my DI lasts about 5 times longer per refill so I save from the very first drop of water I made. I have found from personal experience, it costs much more to improve and upgrade a ebay quality system to reef quality that what I would have spent on the beter system to begin with. The first time I went that route in about 1990 we didn't have all the choices we have today so it wasn't an option. The second time was my fault and is chalked up to stubborness or stupidity but it cost me in the end. I now look at a RO/DI system as a fine tool or long term investment so I choose to but high quality. I have been in this hobby since the late 1980s and still have a few pieces of equipment around from those days! Maybe I'm a packrat but they still work. lol, AZ is very knowledgeable. Him and I disagree when it comes to his strong bias against the ebay unit. It's not all doom and gloom. I ran my unit over a year with the DI cartridges horizontal and still got 0TDS water. I simply suggested turning them vertical because it will increase the efficiency. Link to comment
Scott Riemer Posted February 27, 2009 Share Posted February 27, 2009 Ya, I'm just a little tired of hearing how crappy my RO/DI unit is when it's doing just fine for me. Link to comment
TriggerHappyDude Posted February 27, 2009 Author Share Posted February 27, 2009 DI channeling is teh devil!! I still have yet to turn mine, but I need to change out my resin anyways, so it's as good of excuse as any to do this. have you done it yet Scott, and if so PICS?!? Also Trigger, definitely shut off at the ball valve on the RO/DI unit. As far as sutting off the supply source valve, that's totally upto you. I always shut mine off anyways out of habit as the auto-shut-off valve with the RO/DI unit should automaticall stop water production once the ball-valve dispenser that came with it is shut off. Ok, so shut off at the part where the water comes out of the blue tube, with that ball valve? The good water out part? Thanks AZ, Scott and Phixion, all good banter here. I'm happy with the RO/DI unit from ebay, for now, it was easy to hook up, easy to install, and I'm getting 0 TDS from the get go, so I'm happy... Link to comment
TriggerHappyDude Posted February 27, 2009 Author Share Posted February 27, 2009 No one has yet to answer me, maybe I have it on another thread, but what are these things that came with the RO/DI system? Link to comment
Phixion Posted February 27, 2009 Share Posted February 27, 2009 Ok, so shut off at the part where the water comes out of the blue tube, with that ball valve? The good water out part? Thanks AZ, Scott and Phixion, all good banter here. I'm happy with the RO/DI unit from ebay, for now, it was easy to hook up, easy to install, and I'm getting 0 TDS from the get go, so I'm happy... That's exactly the part. After about a minute, the hissing sound of the water flowing through the unit, should stop. Link to comment
TriggerHappyDude Posted February 27, 2009 Author Share Posted February 27, 2009 That's exactly the part. After about a minute, the hissing sound of the water flowing through the unit, should stop. Does it hurt to shut off the water source to it too, or just less hassle to have the source on? I guess thats what the ASOV is for right? Link to comment
AZDesertRat Posted February 28, 2009 Share Posted February 28, 2009 The autoshutoff valve (ASOV), senses backpressure, either from a closed ball valve on the good water line or something like a raised float valve or solenoid shut off by a raised float switch. Once it senses the backpressure it shuts off the waste floow too, it make take a few minutes but it should shut off. 0 TDS is the goal but the cost to get there and maintain it at 0 is often more with less expensive systems since they do not usually use the same quality filters, membranes and DI as better systems. To see the true value of a RO/DI system monitor all three TDS levels over time, tap water, RO only and final RO/DI or product water. A good systems DI will last and last at 0 TDS due to being more efficient. The membrane will also last longer and perform better due to better prefilters and carbons which do not allow contaminants to reach the membrane to begin with. Randy Holmes Farley recently reported his very first Spectrapure membrane was just replaced after 10 years of heavy usage, thats not very common, in fact I have never heard of that with less expensive systems, they normaly go 18 to 36 months maximum at peak efficiency. Factor in the cost of 2, 3 or even 4 membranes when comparing the true cost of a good system vs a lower quality system over its lifetime. I found the MaxCap gives me 830+ gallons per DI cartridge vs my Typhoon III at 150 gallons per DI cartridge. The cost adds up quickly and the Typhoon III is a very good system too. In my case its 75 GPD membrane was giving me a RO only TDS of 13-15 down from the tap TDS of 800+ which is very good but not in the same league as the MaxCap which has consistently given me a RO only TDS of 4-6. Big savings in DI between the two and I would not even consider a low quality system with my TDS, not even if it were 300 instead of 830 TDS. Calculate your RO membrane efficiency as well as the final TDS of 0, any RO/DI , cheap or expensive should give you 0 TDS, the difference is for how long. Does it hurt to shut off the water source to it too, or just less hassle to have the source on?I guess thats what the ASOV is for right? Link to comment
TriggerHappyDude Posted February 28, 2009 Author Share Posted February 28, 2009 Is he serious? Link to comment
05XRunner Posted February 28, 2009 Share Posted February 28, 2009 can keep those over priced units..all they are is just a name on the same 10" canisters as every other unit and same tubing..you can replace all the filters and membranes with quality ones when needed and get just as good and not have to pay for the name. Link to comment
AZDesertRat Posted February 28, 2009 Share Posted February 28, 2009 You could not be further from the truth. Housings are not housings and fittings are not fittings any more than all filters are equal. The price is normally an indication of the quality. Give Russ at Buckeye Field Supply a call or email and ask him how many housings he has seen fail on ebay units, and have him explain the differences in what he and they sell. I work with these things daily and can tell you there most certainly is a difference. Add up the cost of the good replacement filters, membranes, reswin and housings and you could have had the good ones the first time around rather than have to upgrade, whats so hard about understanding that? Do even one of you understand the difference between a nominal rated filter and an absolute rated filter? Do you know better systems come with absolute rated filters whic hextend the life of every component downstream of those filters. Do any of you know what a hand tested and guaranteed 98+% efficient RO membrane will save you in DI replacement costs over a two or three year period? Spectrapure does,I do. Its definitely worth the increase in initial cost and then some. Do any of you realize the value of resin blends which have been researched and developed after years of lab testing. What if you are guaranteed at least 3.5x longer DI life and an 18.2 megaohm resistivity (true 0 TDS) finished water. Its worth it, and its usually much better than 3.5x the resin life, more like 5x for me. There is a difference. can keep those over priced units..all they are is just a name on the same 10" canisters as every other unit and same tubing..you can replace all the filters and membranes with quality ones when needed and get just as good and not have to pay for the name. Link to comment
05XRunner Posted February 28, 2009 Share Posted February 28, 2009 LOL..some people take this stuff to far..I think ReefCentral might work out better for you..there are more people over there that take this stuff to serious as well. Link to comment
Phixion Posted February 28, 2009 Share Posted February 28, 2009 Ok, let's not turn THIS thread into another "Buckeye" sales thread. The OP has what he has and that's that. Give info on what he HAS, not what he DOESN'T have... I still have yet to see a unit FAIL exception of components being left out in sub freezing temps. Just about all units that are common to us reefers do use the same components, it's only the filters and YES the brand name that tweaks the price, and I can tell you the filters won't tweak it even a fraction of what a brand name badge will. Anyways, Trigger, the source on or off is totally upto you. I figure it's less strain on the ASOV and also you don't risk anything to start leaking from having a constant pressure load on it, namely hose connections and the faucet adapter connection. Link to comment
TriggerHappyDude Posted February 28, 2009 Author Share Posted February 28, 2009 Ok, let's not turn THIS thread into another "Buckeye" sales thread. The OP has what he has and that's that. Give info on what he HAS, not what he DOESN'T have... I still have yet to see a unit FAIL exception of components being left out in sub freezing temps. Just about all units that are common to us reefers do use the same components, it's only the filters and YES the brand name that tweaks the price, and I can tell you the filters won't tweak it even a fraction of what a brand name badge will. Anyways, Trigger, the source on or off is totally upto you. I figure it's less strain on the ASOV and also you don't risk anything to start leaking from having a constant pressure load on it, namely hose connections and the faucet adapter connection. Thanks Phixion, thats the info I was asking for, sorry for the interruption from the other psycho babble. Link to comment
Phixion Posted February 28, 2009 Share Posted February 28, 2009 Thanks Phixion, thats the info I was asking for, sorry for the interruption from the other psycho babble. No worries, glad I could give you info you actually ASKED about, and not some long winded technobabble that is pretty much irrelivant to this thread with products you don't even have! Link to comment
TriggerHappyDude Posted February 28, 2009 Author Share Posted February 28, 2009 I'm sure he means well, or maybe not, but its just too much information and not what I was looking for, I don't need to doubt something I just spend $175 on...I'm happy with the unit, glad you and Scott told me about it, and will make some wonderful TDS free water soon. Link to comment
Phixion Posted February 28, 2009 Share Posted February 28, 2009 I'm sure he means well, or maybe not, but its just too much information and not what I was looking for, I don't need to doubt something I just spend $175 on...I'm happy with the unit, glad you and Scott told me about it, and will make some wonderful TDS free water soon. I'm glad we could help and offer you something good for a reasonable price. AZ means well, but both Scott and myself have gotten into with him in the past. We thought it was all in the past, but apparently not... =/ Link to comment
Scott Riemer Posted February 28, 2009 Share Posted February 28, 2009 I'm glad we could help and offer you something good for a reasonable price. AZ means well, but both Scott and myself have gotten into with him in the past. We thought it was all in the past, but apparently not... =/ Link to comment
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.