The Soft Cycle thread

[Weetabix7]

4 minutes ago, Lisa166 said:

Just did another test: 

Ammonia: 1.0 mg/l 

N03: 4mg/l

N02: above 5 mg/l

 

So i guess the way to go from here is doing more waterchanges for a few days, and then scale them back. See what stays and what wont stay, I cannot keep up doing 50% waterchanges daily. Simply because of the costs of it. 

 

This sounds like it is making very good progress. 

Just do what you are able and take it one step at a time. 

Enjoy the exciting things you see and the life you see pop up from the rock, and don't stress out over what you can't control. 

[Lisa166]

Someone has been telling me that a soft cycle will create a too low amount of nitrifying bacteria in my tank. They said that it will most likely cause huge deaths in my stockings.  Can anyone here confirm or debust this? If it is true, what can I do to make it better? 

 

My tank has been running since February. I did a soft cycle, it now has some easy corals (mushrooms, GSP, some buttons and a xenia) and one turbo snail. 

I used to have two turbos, but one died and left me with a massive ammonia peak of above 5 ppm. Is this normal in an (othewise well functioning) 15 g tank? 

[brandon429]

This is a fine summary to avoid confusion in cycles: after 30-40 days, none of the approaches matter, the ends are the same.

 

We use different cycling techniques to get done under thirty days... You are well past that.

 

The number one determinant of your filtration abilities is now not related to cycling technique, it's the amount of surface area you have running, post a tank pic

 

Yes the death of a snail can have such a spike but it will be transient and not sustaining

 

If you have the most minimum use of live rock, and no sand, then you could be running low on critical surface area meaning any small loss is beyond processing ability

 

But if you have live sand, or a few pounds of live rock, then you are set.

 

Approaches matter when are trying to beat a 40 day clock

 

After that time, only the surface area amounts matter

[Lula_Mae]

On 7/15/2017 at 1:16 PM, Lisa166 said:

Someone has been telling me that a soft cycle will create a too low amount of nitrifying bacteria in my tank. They said that it will most likely cause huge deaths in my stockings.  Can anyone here confirm or debust this? If it is true, what can I do to make it better? 

 

My tank has been running since February. I did a soft cycle, it now has some easy corals (mushrooms, GSP, some buttons and a xenia) and one turbo snail. 

I used to have two turbos, but one died and left me with a massive ammonia peak of above 5 ppm. Is this normal in an (othewise well functioning) 15 g tank? 

I don't think that person understands what soft cycling is.    Over the course of time you will have plenty of bacteria on the surface area on your rocks and sand just like if you did a "hard" cycle.  No difference.

[Lisa166]

Thank you guys so much!!!! 

 

[.Boris]

It may have been mentioned but I didn't see it so what light regime should I use for a soft cycle?

[brandon429]

That will be independent to what your bac do. Most run low lights due to algae. Bac don't care either way, though they prefer dark zones. 

 

If you ran 24 7 lighting it will change nothing about the cycle they simply adapt.

[.Boris]

Yes, I understand that the bacteria don't need light but the point of a soft cycle is to keep as much of the life on the rock still alive after cycling and some of these will need light? I thought there may be some idea how to balance "life" versus algae?

[brandon429]

Didn't think of that nice call. That seems to reflect more though on using live rock, which shouldn't cycle at all unless it was treated really roughly on the way home.

 

My own 11 yr old pico reef is soon coming up in a little YouTube review where I drain it for 25 mins in one take. Corals, rocks, air n sand. I'll splice in what it looks like within 24 hours

 

The point will be why is anyone having to cycle live rocks at all, we can be nicer in transport vs a total air drain.

 

We like to position dry rock needs cycling, live rock doesn't with any decent care, and uncured live rock from the ocean needs time to stop leaking ammonia and based on what you are saying that's the kind of cycle that would benefit from light.

[.Boris]

 

19 minutes ago, brandon429 said:

The point will be why is anyone having to cycle live rocks at all, we can be nicer in transport vs a total air drain.

 

We like to position dry rock needs cycling, live rock doesn't with any decent care, and uncured live rock from the ocean needs time to stop leaking ammonia and based on what you are saying that's the kind of cycle that would benefit from light.

I agree that I would ideally like to have live rock that has been kept submerged and handled gently during swift transport but even if I could get this I’m not sure I could afford it. There will be some die off on live rock.
I have just started  my first reef tank today. I went to the (not so local) fish store and was there when they opened.
The shipment of live rock arrived yesterday and I got to cut open the boxes and take my pick of what was there. I picked 10 lbs that smelled fresh and had some life on them. Now that they are rinsed and in the tank I see small pieces of both red and green macro algae, some bristle type algae, a couple of sponges and I definitely saw a crab claw in a crevice. Ideally I would like all these to survive but I am not sure how to balance light and nutrients. Also I will be away for a few days during the cycle so I have decided to do a classic cycle and take it as a learning experience.

What I don't get is that pods and bristle worms seem to survive hard cycling. Why is that?

[brandon429]

 

 

Soon Ill link my video here of my 25 minute tank drain.

 

what is meaner than letting 11 yr old corals hang in the air, rocks, worms, bacteria, pods, sponges? all are shown in my youtube videos and they'll tolerate half hour drains everyday and not leak ammonia. Plants aren't really a large source of protein anyway, so when they decay, they aren't producing ammonia to the degree a worm/meaty morsel would provide. I have lots of pods and worms and mini stars, the drain is meant to show they simply weather tidal events and air exposure is one of those (of course within reason, I don't know what the exposure limits are but they're really forgiving and could be in orders of hours depending on corals) and the greater takeaway in my opinion is that with any form of bagging or wetness, regular live rocks with just coralline and some pods should never ever leak ammonia ever just because we moved tanks.

 

And from that, we develop the ability to strip-clean tanks, upgrade or downgrade, react to tank breakages or unexpected house moves, all while controlling ammonia and making losses zero. Cycles are so predictable and its fun to uncover that the materials we are working with are actually quite tough, they aren't as fragile as we viewed them in the 90s. Heck in the 90s people were afraid to change water more than 20% bi weekly only due to urban legend, or the fact they were dumping water back in on cruddy Berlin waste-packed sandbeds and the resulting nutrient cloud made it just seem like the water change was the bad move.

 

Its possible that in the shipping process they have just done ideal methods to preserve the meatier fares even if some of the algae starts to die off in time because its not supported in a tank. Im very curious if you have uncured ocean rock, that is the most bacterially-diverse material you could ever put in a tank its a fun challenge. a bunch of free stuff too Id take some its neat. post pics if you can!

 

 

Check out this company, they make their living selling us skip cycle rocks that are not barren, they're packed to the hilt!

You have something along those lines, if you are skip cycling and losing no pods. This simply shows its no ruse, its a business model to skip cycle fully dense live rock:

 

Tampa Bay Live rock thread

 

https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/tampa-bay-saltwater-live-rock.245819/

[.Boris]

I don't want to lead this thread off topic so you can see pics in my tank journal.

[brandon429]

Hey that's as on topic as it gets. you want to preserve all that fine life, there's no reason for those rocks to be leaking ammonia at all, they are sharp. I am very curious to get a verified accurate ammonia reading, and thats a rare thing to get in this hobby.

 

what is not rare is someone posting an API ammonia test vial reading with no other cross checks

 

but to test a sample with two different name brand ammonia test kits to seek the zero predicted reading for free ammonia? priceless

 

do you have access to a dual ammonia test option for your tank water. id take even two different api kits if nothing else, any form of reference is good. salifert would be the most ideal tester.

 

I linked your thread to this big cycling thread

https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/the-microbiology-of-reef-tank-cycling.214618/ last page

 

nice detail pics

 

your rock is the prime example as to why we group ammonia actions into three modes for reefkeeping in that thread (dry rocks get ammonia, live rock requires nothing it just sits there awaiting our begin, and uncured rock likes water changes and feeding and zero ammonia if possible) what we do with ammonia has a real impact on our systems and we needed a map of three clear options to stop killing the coolest animals in our tanks using no maps for action.  

 

    What I mean by that is, if we search out reef cycling articles they don't group live rock approaches, they all begin the approach to assume bacteria are lacking universally in the setup tank. Its bizarrely untrue; these rocks you show as well as over half the cycling all aquarists are doing at any given moment is a form of cycling where the bacteria are already in full complement, and the "cycle" is actually complete already upon arrival to our homes. What we do in those cases, and in your case, is act to preserve benthic life from loss and that has nothing to do with bacteria, some cycles need ammonia added and some do not, the type of rock used sets the requirement.

 

  I think everything you picture can run in a nano reef, begin meeting its feed demands with good feeding of blenderized frozen reef feeds and change water well in my opinion, that's lucky rock to have.

 

I would take half a chunk of that and gladly put it in my pico reef uncured 100% fact. id appreciate the new and varied bacteria. you just added something that beats any bottle bac from any source in the world, literally a massive dose of mixed bacteria and protoplasms that will pump life into a nano indefinitely. if I was given fifty bins of live rock to pick from, some of that would have come home with me and began the awesome feed/water change regimen Id do to pump that up and spread the life around my currently boring tank.

 

 Every action stated for uncured rock in that thread is what I would do for your fine rock setup. It belongs directly in a soft cycle thread because it gets the most polar opposite treatment for ammonia possible as compared to how we cycle dry systems. These threads must contain details about discerning between the two actions, yours is the begin feeding and water change and lets save all that I wish it was mine scenario.

 

 

[.Boris]

I have a Salifert test and it shows zero at this time.
As for feeding I have nothing at the moment. What food do you suggest and how much/often?
Aquaforest Phyto mix or something larger?

[brandon429]

thanks for the test info that w be updated too! well done. that feed guessing is half the fun, its whatever you can think of and have access to. you might be able to grow things that are not currently manifested- just since live rock has so many holding spaces for microbial forms and juvenile forms of various benthic creatures. if it was me personally Id be using blenderized Mysis shimp, that's stuff is protein heavy./ I would then be changing the water a little more often to make up for the good feeding, that's really primo rock it deserves good gardening, not sit back type gardening in my opinion.

 

It comes from a zone where dissolved nutrients like nitrate and phosphate are very low; but the floating meat fare in the water in the form of bugs and bacterial aggregates is massive and constant and much of the animals on the rock you show will take in bits of clean meat that float by and stick. its all a custom approach, but at least they'll be getting some sort of added protein support.

[.Boris]

Update; Test showed zero this morning. Just now it is between .25 and .5 so I will say .5 and have the salt mix ready.

I have some frozen shrimp mix for Malawi cichlids...?

[brandon429]

in that case its no feed then and the water changes using the known zero water. If a bit of guiding is needed for cure that's not a prob, even some ammonia absorbtion multimedia if any filters were already in place here would be indicated solely just to save work. Im not sure Id use prime a bunch on it, if not for just water changes it would be a flow media id use just to cut down on work. they'll get by on nonfeeding much better than if raw ammonia is present until things balance.

[.Boris]

Update;
So I put the lights on a 10h cycle. Ammonia was steady at 0.5 and Nitrate 0.
Last night I thought that the Nitrate maybe showed some colour but was uncertain and wrote 0.2 in parentheses.
Today Ammonia reads less than 0.5, I am uncertain but I wrote <0.15. This is backed up by Nitrate now showing definite colour, maybe even 0.5.

PO4 shows 0 but the salifert test is said to be unreliable. I have a Hanna checker for phosphate but I have never used it so my first attempts will have serious risk of user error. Phosphate may not be a primary concern at this time but I have pre-emptively had a bag of GFO in the filter. I have no algae yet. Should I remove the GFO so as to not completely strip the tank of nutrients or should I leave it and when ammonia reaches zero start test feeding?

[mcarroll]

Remove the GFO and any other excess filtration....

[mcarroll]

On 7/31/2017 at 5:49 AM, .Boris said:

salifert test is said to be unreliable.

(i know this is old)

 

Hard to interpret.  Not unreliable.  

 

Avoid crashing nutrients to zero during your cycle.  Doing that is at least as likely to do harm as good. Worth noting that the only suggestion @Greenstar made on macronutrients was to get nitrates "near zero".  On a test kit that's something like 5-10 ppm.

 

There's not much to worry about over ordinary macro nutrients....just prevent excessive amounts of toxic ammonia or nitrite.  The sooner green algae grows (which utilize nitrogen-cycle byproducts as @Greenstar also mentioned), the sooner that's no longer a real worry.

 

Algae, in its turn, gets handled by pulling it out by hand or getting a big enough cleanup crew to eat it – usually pulling at the beginning...then both...then eventually your crew should put you out of a job, doing at least 90% of the work for you.

 

This should help with the phosphate test interpretation:

Use a second vial filled with the same volume of tank water as the test vial.  Designate this as your "zero vial".  Holding it next to the test vial as a reference for zero will make low-level color changes easier to discern.

 

(just adding for posterity)

[iamawesome]

Good read!

[MrMatt]

I got about 15lbs of aquacultured rock and added it to my 13 gallon AIO tank yesterday after rinsing and removing as much dead stuff as possible. I am now attempting a soft cycle but have a few questions about it. I know frequent water changes are essential to reduce the NH3 but what number should I be chasing? I have done several water changes when the number hits 2ppm should I try to keep it below 1ppm or is allowing it to get a little higher okay? I want to avoid a cascade effect and am trying to preserve as much life on this rock as possible but I also don't want to be doing water changes every 4 hours unless that is what is needed.

 

Also is it unusual to have zero NO2 and NO3 when using fresh aquacultured rock? I was thinking the bacteria that is present on the rock should be doing its best to consume the NH3/NO2.

 

Thanks!

[mcarroll]

9 hours ago, MrMatt said:

I got about 15lbs of aquacultured rock and added it to my 13 gallon AIO tank yesterday after rinsing and removing as much dead stuff as possible.

Cool!

 

9 hours ago, MrMatt said:

I have done several water changes when the number hits 2ppm should I try to keep it below 1ppm or is allowing it to get a little higher okay? I want to avoid a cascade effect and am trying to preserve as much life on this rock as possible but I also don't want to be doing water changes every 4 hours unless that is what is needed.

This makes me question how live your rock is.  Can you post a picture?

 

Was it shipped wet?  Was it wrapped or bagged in any way?  What vendor, if you don't mind saying?

 

9 hours ago, MrMatt said:

Also is it unusual to have zero NO2 and NO3 when using fresh aquacultured rock?

If it's pretty clean, there could be almost or literally no noticeable cycle.  

 

No ammonia spike – no nitrate spike.  (and no nitrite spike)  

 

You have to watch/test though (as you appear to be) rather than assuming if you have any macro-life on the rock that you want to safe from an ammonia spike.  

 

A Seachem AmmoAlert badge is a really nice thing to have during this time.

 

I assume that you have the rock lit up?  Getting algae growing will also consume a crapload of ammonia.

[MrMatt]

@mcarroll Thank you for your reply. Here are some photos of the rock. Sorry the glass is a bit dirty from the water change this morning. The Ammonia levels had spiked to 4ppm :(. After some water changes I reduced it to 0.25ppm

 

I got the rock from KPAquatics and am overall happy with the rock. The rock arrived overnight (actually took about 15 hours to get to my door) in water, not submerged but covered in wet paper towels and a heat pack. It looked good on arrival smelled fresh, not at all stinky. There was a couple dead crabs and a pistol shrimp in the bottom of the bag. There were numerous (living) brittle stars and plenty of feather dusters. There is also a decent number of macro on the rock. The feather dusters are still opening, and I've seen a couple brittle stars moving, the coraline algae seems to be bleaching slightly.

 

I am running my lights (AI Prime HD) UV 11, Violet 11, Royal blue 8, Blue 8, Green 0, Red, 0, Cool white 9. I have them low to not shock everything but I definitely can increase the intensity if you think that would help.

 

 

[MrMatt]

I will look into getting the ammonia alert badge. However according to my API test kit the level have been regularly spiking over 0.5, should I bite the bullet and just try to start doing aggressive water changes multiple times a day for as long as I can sustain it? I was planning for a max of a 5 gallon water change per day but its been require more. I don't have an RO/DI system at the moment so obtaining 15gallons of RO a day to keep ammonia levels in check is a bit of a challenge but I can see what I can do.