mcarroll Posted December 4, 2020 Share Posted December 4, 2020 2 hours ago, Jakesaw said: I'm trying to keep entry into salt as cheap as possible to learn if I"m up to the task of salt vs freshwater. Originally was going to follow a budget 10 gal build on youtube. If you were good at freshwater, reefing won't be that big a step up. But don't start on YouTube....a lot of dubious material there and it's hard to tell the good stuff from the bad stuff. Some of the bad stuff is REALLY popular. Internet guides in general are often like that. Instead, start with a book. Or a few books. You'll have a much better base of knowledge to start with. And you'll have MUCH better questions as a result. Better questions always get you better answers....so you're on a good track. You'll also have a much better chance to recognize BS when you see it. For starters I like to recommend Martin Moe's Marine Aquarium Handbook Beginner to Breeder. New or Used in paper, or in digital. There are a TON of great reefing books though. Check out this thread for more suggestions: Your Reef Aquarium-Oriented Reading List! 2 hours ago, Jakesaw said: If you have a better recommendation for affordable light on 29, I'd be open. I was even pricing DIY LED builds on the web today, Look up @TinyGiant's "...Cheap Chinese LED..." thread and see what you think about doing something like that. It's the cheapest way to light a tank that I'm familiar with. I've built and used three units loosely based on his design. Depending on how fancy you get and what other materials you already have on hand, you could build one for your tank for as little as... 29 Gallon is 30x12x18"H right? (30/2)-1 is the number of bulbs you'd need for his formula....so 14 bulbs. Each bulb needs a socket. You can get a bulb and a socket for a total of about $3-$4...maybe less if you're good at eBay. So (14 • 3 = ) about $42...again, depending on some other factors as mentioned. If you can give me a budget number I can maybe suggest some other options that would fit. 👍 2 hours ago, Jakesaw said: dry rock If at all possible, I would delay starting the tank and use the time to save up for some live rock. One's first tank shouldn't ideally be a dead rock tank. 2 hours ago, Jakesaw said: onger term like to have a mixed reef / fish The more fish, the harder the tank is to get stable and keep that way. No fish is possible and makes a tank VERY VERY easy to keep. I started with coral only for some years and with a few minor exceptions that's how my set has been for most of the 10+ years it's been up. When I upgraded from 3' tanks to my current 6' tank a year or two ago (time is flying...already can't remember....3 years?) is when I really added my first fish. Now in the 125 Gallon I have one Yellow Tang and one Black Damselfish (still in juvenile color). That's it. Quote Link to comment
Jakesaw Posted December 4, 2020 Share Posted December 4, 2020 8 hours ago, mcarroll said: If you were good at freshwater, reefing won't be that big a step up. But don't start on YouTube....a lot of dubious material there and it's hard to tell the good stuff from the bad stuff. Some of the bad stuff is REALLY popular. Internet guides in general are often like that. Instead, start with a book. Or a few books. You'll have a much better base of knowledge to start with. And you'll have MUCH better questions as a result. Better questions always get you better answers....so you're on a good track. You'll also have a much better chance to recognize BS when you see it. For starters I like to recommend Martin Moe's Marine Aquarium Handbook Beginner to Breeder. New or Used in paper, or in digital. There are a TON of great reefing books though. Check out this thread for more suggestions: Your Reef Aquarium-Oriented Reading List! Look up @TinyGiant's "...Cheap Chinese LED..." thread and see what you think about doing ksomething like that. It's the cheapest way to light a tank that I'm familiar with. I've built and used three units loosely based on his design. Depending on how fancy you get and what other materials you already have on hand, you could build one for your tank for as little as... 29 Gallon is 30x12x18"H right? (30/2)-1 is the number of bulbs you'd need for his formula....so 14 bulbs. Each bulb needs a socket. You can get a bulb and a socket for a total of about $3-$4...maybe less if you're good at eBay. So (14 • 3 = ) about $42...again, depending on some other factors as mentioned. If you can give me a budget number I can maybe suggest some other options that would fit. 👍 If at all possible, I would delay starting the tank and use the time to save up for some live rock. One's first tank shouldn't ideally be a dead rock tank. The more fish, the harder the tank is to get stable and keep that way. No fish is possible and makes a tank VERY VERY easy to keep. Freshwater no problem. Got into dirted planted tanks and enjoyed it, but I'd rather pursue Salts / Coral vs continuing that direction. Following Youtube : This is the tank I was looking at. He's got an interesting channel with alot of Reef experience on his channel. Light in video was 60 bucks https://www.amazon.com/HIPARGERO-LED-Aquarium-Light-Saltwater/dp/B0727V8C5Q/ref=sr_1_5?crid=2IBVDO1HWAX05&dchild=1&keywords=aqua+knight+led+aquarium+light&qid=1607097991&sprefix=aqua+knight+led%2Caps%2C189&sr=8-5 ------ Re: Fish numbers : I figured the fish thing is what throws off parameters, but need one active fish to keep me interested in tank. That's why I'm probably going to get a Clown to start out even if it's 1 fish for a year. Rest on list were future aspirations. I love wrasses and the way they swim. the others are colorful contrasts with interesting personalities. Dry vs Live Rock to start - I'm pretty committed to Dry rock as a learning experience. May grab a small piece or rubble from saltwater LFS to seed. I could buy it all LR today, I just prefer to learn small on low spend, and as my knowledge and confidence grows, I'll expand from there. Budget - none specific. My big spends will be on substrate / dry rock / Light and RO/DI unit. Keeping all as low as possible, but the above budget build light is 60 bucks, and that's not a problem. I have no interest in lugging water back and forth from LFS. Lighting : Those strange LEDS are interesting. I'll check out that thread later. Saw the bulbs listed, but I'll have to search for the socket / power source which weren't so readily seen in quick search. Basic entry goal = I know I'll make some mistakes, I'd like to minimize the cost of those mistakes on the front end, Crashing a tank on expensive fish and losing a ton of expensive corals as I learn would likely steer me out of hobby vs dumping money into hobby to keep afloat while i learn. Do you think a 10 gal reef tank ( corals ) with 1 clown and CUC would be easy to keep stable for newbie? Thanks Quote Link to comment
mcarroll Posted December 5, 2020 Share Posted December 5, 2020 On 12/4/2020 at 11:08 AM, Jakesaw said: I'm pretty committed to Dry rock as a learning experience. To me a tank with dead rock functions just like a fish tank with a glorified undergravel filter. So it may be a retrograde experience even for you coming from freshwater. I definitely see it as retrograde compared to reefing with live rock. Fundamentally, a tank with dead rock is not a reef because there are no reef organisms present. Adding a reef oriented fish doesn't count...still a fish tank with a glorified undergravel filter. The first touch of "reefiness" will be when you add the first coral. But that limits your reefy inhabitants to to what comes in with/on/in the coral – a very narrow range of species and a very small population for you to very hopefully cultivate. And if you subscribe to the dip-every-coral theory, this will even further narrow and shrink your founding "reef" population....almost down to meaningless proportions. IMO the learning experience that you really want is the one that comes from having live rock for the first time. It can take months just to get to know your rock that way!! 👍 Vs. day one you dump in a bottle of bacteria and think you and your tank are ready for something. That's the #1 most common newbie mistake of the current reefing era....and it's rooted to the dry rock "experiment". 🤷♂️ IMO, save up your money until you can afford an order of live rock from one of the aquaculture outfits that are around today. On 12/4/2020 at 11:08 AM, Jakesaw said: power source which weren't so readily seen in quick search. Transformers are built into each bulb, so the system will run straight AC power from your point of view. All you're really doing is wiring up the + and - wires from the sockets to the + and - wires from an AC power cord. You'll find sockets if you search "gu10 socket". Try to get a big multipack, and presume some defects....I order at least +10% more than I think I'll need for bulbs and sockets since it's usually a long wait from China to get the best prices. On 12/4/2020 at 11:08 AM, Jakesaw said: Do you think a 10 gal reef tank ( corals ) with 1 clown and CUC would be easy to keep stable for newbie? I think larger would be easier. I think live rock would be better and easier. But 10 is doable if that's all you can consider. Make sure "doable" is what you want tho...as a beginner I would shoot for "easier" rather than just doable. More space means more room to change your mind about things and more room for error...among other things. I would make a clownfish the largest fish that you'd consider in the 10 Gallon. There are some smaller candidates that would be worthy of consideration in such a small tank. 10 is considered the minimum for clownfish....I don't really recommend using the minimum standards when housing fish. I think for a newbie it may be treading a little bit (sometimes a lot) into the territory of asking for trouble. Since you said you aren't in a rush and you ARE trying to be on a serious budget, I would strongly consider NOT buying anything brand new (or as little as possible, eg DIY materials) for your very first system. I would figure out your budget (take your time) and try to pick up the largest used system you can find that fits that budget. Shoot for something like 30 gallons (or more) IMO. An old BioCube or similar would be great, but anything in that size range....30 Breeder, 40 Breeder. Even a 20 gallon (either type) would be a decent step up from 10 gallons as far as your prospective Clownfish would be concerned. Checking out my local used listings, it seems like once you're spending around $150-$250 or so, you can get into a used 50-60 gallon setup, complete. For what it's worth, I started with a 37 Gallon (36" long) that I found at a pet store clearance sale for $30 a few years before I set up my reef. Only my live rock was new – the real core of the system. I still felt that 37 gallons was too small for any but the absolute smallest reef fish (still feel that way today). I ended up never having fish in that tank for that reason. Not until I added a 50 Breeder (a freebie) onto the system a few years later did I have a group of 4-5 Barnacle Blennies. Tiny, but AWESOME, fish....sorta like a tiny, camouflaged Midas Blenny. Other than them the system was all corals and some inverts. I would also check out some/all of those books I suggested. Sound like you have plenty of time to read between now and Tank Day! 👍😁 Quote Link to comment
Jakesaw Posted December 5, 2020 Share Posted December 5, 2020 2 hours ago, mcarroll said: To me a tank with dead rock functions just like a fish tank with a glorified undergravel filter. So it may be a retrograde experience even for you coming from freshwater. I definitely see it as retrograde compared to reefing with live rock. Fundamentally, a tank with dead rock is not a reef because there are no reef organisms present. Adding a reef oriented fish doesn't count...still a fish tank with a glorified undergravel filter. The first touch of "reefiness" will be when you add the first coral. But that limits your reefy inhabitants to to what comes in with/on/in the coral – a very narrow range of species and a very small population for you to very hopefully cultivate. And if you subscribe to the dip-every-coral theory, this will even further narrow and shrink your founding "reef" population....almost down to meaningless proportions. IMO the learning experience that you really want is the one that comes from having live rock for the first time. It can take months just to get to know your rock that way!! 👍 Vs. day one you dump in a bottle of bacteria and think you and your tank are ready for something. That's the #1 most common newbie mistake of the current reefing era....and it's rooted to the dry rock "experiment". 🤷♂️ IMO, save up your money until you can afford an order of live rock from one of the aquaculture outfits that are around today. It's not about saving the $ to buy live rock. It's willingness to part with it for first tank in new hobby. Personality wise, I don't want the spend on first dip in the hobby. I can always go the live rock later if my interest grows. My LFS sells it for 9 bucks a pound. I was considering on possibly seeding with small 1 pound Live rock or reef rubble to start some coraline algae growth. Also, more of a question on the topic to you thank declaration of correctness on my part as I have zero experience to draw from. But I've seen online quite a bit that with Live Rock you can get unwanted pests like Aptasia, Mantis shrimps, bristle worms, other unwanted things that could be a nuisance hitchhiker. Part of my Intention was to avoid those headaches. Re: Size, I'll evenually decide between 10 - 20, or 29. It's a bedroom aquarium and I don't want a 60 gallon taking up the space. also don't want noise of pump for first tank. Right now I'm doing alot of reading online, and I have a few Marine books I've read and can reference as needed. I do Appreciate the feedback though. Much respect! 1 Quote Link to comment
mcarroll Posted December 6, 2020 Share Posted December 6, 2020 3 hours ago, Jakesaw said: My LFS sells it for 9 bucks a pound. That's a decent price...about what I paid in the mid-2000's for mine. I plunked down for 2 pounds per gallon though! These days folks stock only half that. Looking at dead rock as "beginner rock" is a mistake. It is the opposite...should be more exclusive to experts, folks who've had a tank before. It's harder to succeed with. Don't do that to yourself straight out of the starting gate. IMO. 3 hours ago, Jakesaw said: But I've seen online quite a bit that with Live Rock you can get unwanted pests like Aptasia, Mantis shrimps, bristle worms, other unwanted things that could be a nuisance hitchhiker. Part of my Intention was to avoid those headaches. I would weight those sources down a bit in your rankings IMO. Sounds like advice from a recent newbie. Consider what is it that you're really trying to learn from/with this tank an from the hobby. How to be cheap? How to take shortcuts? How to worry about something that hasn't happened yet? Nope!! None of those hitchhikers are likely anyway...some of them aren't even actual pests, just things that a few newbs get freaked out about. And all of the actual pests are nothing but worries unless you actually have them. Which, again, is unlikely. So basing the design of your tank on any of that (ie selecting dead rock) is unwise. Seems like cutting off your nose to spite your face, so to speak. Unwanted hitchhikers, even when they do show up, aren't then end of anything....so there's no REAL reason to worry even if you get one or more. All are solvable. Just more complexity to your reefing adventure. Like I said, it could take your months just to get to know your live rock. That's a deep experience vs starting up a glorified under gravel filter with a bottle of magic ingredient. Last, with dead rock, other pests are FAR MORE LIKELY and far worse to deal with. Hair algae and dino's both seem to be VERY common in dead rock tanks....pest algae in general. (This is expected by anyone with experience....just not well advertised by anyone selling dead rock. Caveat emptor is the rule for newbs.) 4 hours ago, Jakesaw said: Re: Size, I'll evenually decide between 10 - 20, or 29. It's a bedroom aquarium and I don't want a 60 gallon taking up the space. also don't want noise of pump for first tank. That's a common size for folks to upgrade FROM so if you're patient I'm sure you'll find a used setup of the right size for you. Quote Link to comment
Jakesaw Posted December 9, 2020 Share Posted December 9, 2020 Kicking around the lighting options, I'm leaning toward I'd like a Kessel or AI Prime, but would rather not spend that dollar at the front end setting up new tank. Since I have a T5 HO light, it's a free option to start and should cover any tank I'm considering. Holding 2 uknown brand new Acnic and 2 White lights. Bulk Reef Supply video I watched from 2020 suggested you can go a year with most bulbs maybe more ( albeit some opinions vary from that I know ) If I start this route, and If the light is working well and I want to replace bulbs, looking around the internet, it seems there are slim pickings these days in terms of brands to choose from. I see available -- * a few ATI bulbs ( which I gather are quality ) are 28 bucks a pop for 24" HO * Amazon has an inexpensive bulb ( Wave Point ) selling 4 packs for about 50 bucks. Blue ? https://www.amazon.com/Point-4-Pack-24-Watt-Universal-Aquarium/dp/B00B5TOH54/ref=sr_1_7?dchild=1&keywords=wave+point+super+blue+24"&qid=1607478749&sr=8-7 White? https://www.amazon.com/Point-4-Pack-24-Watt-Universal-Aquarium/dp/B00B5TOEY8/ref=sr_1_4?dchild=1&keywords=wave+point+t5+Ho+24"+sun+wave&qid=1607478838&sr=8-4 Any thoughts on replacement bulbs before they are all gone? Quote Link to comment
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