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Jakesaw

Besides microalgae / LR / Light / what can go into a Refugium tank

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Jakesaw

I've cleared out a spot for my tank to be 29 gallon - and building a stand pretty soon here - but thinking about putting a 5 or 10 gallon tank next to the display tank as a Refugium with U - tube and small pump - instead of HOB refugium.

 

But besides Chaeto and LR rubble - and light - I don't know what other life forms I should / could put in a refugium to serve the refugium purpose of quiet place to absorb nutrients - and whether of not it would be something I would want to look at next to my tank?

 

In a Refugium : Can I put things like

* crabs?

* shrimp?

* Seahorse ( for a 5 or 10 gallon tank )?

* non predatory fish species?

* anything else I'm not thinking of?

 

Basically I'm more interested in live creatures I can watch move rather than a still rock and still chaeto or other algae.

 

Any advice appreciated. If anybody has a picture of their's I'd love to see it.

 

Thanks

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dsoz

Simple answer is yes. Anything you want. You make up the "rules for stocking" your own aquarium/refugium.

 

For the most part, it is for things that help out your tank, but if you have a low flow refugium, there is no law that says that you cannot have a seahorse. The only problem with a seahorse is don't they eat pods? The secondary purpose of a fuge is to produce pods for the tank.

 

Most people have some sort of CUC in the refugium as well. Snails for microalgae, hermits for hair algae, maybe an emerald or two for bubble algae.

 

The whole point of a fuge is for nutrient export, but there is no reason that it can't be exciting too.

 

dsoz

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Jakesaw
The only problem with a seahorse is don't they eat pods? The secondary purpose of a fuge is to produce pods for the tank.

 

Most people have some sort of CUC in the refugium as well. Snails for microalgae, hermits for hair algae, maybe an emerald or two for bubble algae.

 

The whole point of a fuge is for nutrient export, but there is no reason that it can't be exciting too.

 

dsoz

 

Not sure - but if the seahorses eat pods - I'd take them off the list. My main interest is nutrient control - and producing pods - but the idea of stocking with interesting looking species will be what moves me from a HOB Aqua Clear fuge - vs Display fuge next to Display tank.

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Basile
Not sure - but if the seahorses eat pods - I'd take them off the list. My main interest is nutrient control - and producing pods - but the idea of stocking with interesting looking species will be what moves me from a HOB Aqua Clear fuge - vs Display fuge next to Display tank.

 

 

Hey hi, keep only snails in there, shrimp, crabs and hermit will eat your pods. Snails will clean the microalgae and keep your tank from becoming a sour. The macroalgae are nice and you should put different species, like

Botryocladia (Red Grape)

Christmas Tree

Codium (Short

Fire Fern

Flame Algae

Halimeda (Monile

Halymenia

Kelp on Rock, Smooth Leaf

Laurencia

Red Gracilaria

Red Titan Algae

Shaving Brush

Ulva Lettuce Algae

 

together they make a good show. Later; much later, a year old you can add some sea horse. The sea horse need a mature tank to survive.After a year your tank will have a big copepod and amphiopods population to support the horses, i 'm making the same project you are lol, great minds think alike, lol. Good luck will share pics.

Edited by Basile

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bmac16

you can put a mangroves in there too ....it will help w/ nitrates and phosphates ...not significant though it will help

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Burks

Mangroves are also really fun to watch how they grow. I got 5 of them from Reef Cleaners and they have already sprouted roots.

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Basile
Mangroves are also really fun to watch how they grow. I got 5 of them from Reef Cleaners and they have already sprouted roots.

 

 

Yes but they do very little for nitrates and phosphates, better to go with Cheato and other better suited for it, that's the reason you make a fuge to breakdown those components. And its better actually to put no more than 2 kinds, otherwise the algae will fight for space and release chemical components into the water for that purpouse and that could be bad for your fish tank or reef tank. You want to remove components not to add any, so keep it simple, LR,sand, Cheato, good lighting 6700K slow flow thats it you have it.

Edited by Basile

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johnmaloney

What is the deal with the alleopathy argument? :) It just seems to keep popping up. Okay so it does exist to some extent, but multiple types of algae are easily grown together, and alleopathy has no noticeable effects in an aquarium. My holding tanks are covered from head to toe with over 35 species of macro, and they have no problems. there are also a ton of tanks out there now with many different species of algae living together. The ocean is like this too. Sure they will compete for food and space, but you want them to compete for food and you control the space so why worry about it?

 

Additionally the chemicals in algae that are fish deterrents only make them taste bad to fish. They do not harm fish or corals. They are not toxins, they will not harm livestock.

 

Certainly corals are worse at this than macro algae. I am sure you can find one example of a tank with different kinds of coral in it on this website. No rule saying your refugium has to be boring. You can spice it up, and it will still filter.

 

Here is my philosophy on macro algae for refugiums:

 

You want both consistent nutrient uptake and pulse nutrient uptake:

 

Here is what I mean by those terms: (They use similar terminology in phycology by the idea is exactly the same)

 

Consistent Macros- Macro that need nutrient at a high level, all the time. They filter out nutrients quickly and are effective at dealing with established nutrient problems.

 

Pulse Macros - Can handle periods of low nutrient levels well, and are long lived plants

 

Pulse, grows quickly with consistent - somewhere in the middle, a spectrum below would have worked better but I am lazy.

 

Red Mangroves - pulse, grows quickly with consistent

Black Mangrove - pulse, grows quickly with consistent

Botryocladia (Red Grape) - pulse, grows quickly with consistent

Cactus Caulerpa - consistent

Caulerpa Mexicana - consistent

Caulerpa Prolifera - consistent

Chaeto - consistent

Christmas Tree - pulse, grows quickly with consistent

Codium - pulse

Dictyota ciliolata - consistent

Fauchea - pulse

Fern Caulerpa - consistent

Fire Fern - pulse

Flame Algae - pulse

Grape Caulerpa - consistent

Green Gracilaria - pulse, grows quickly with consistent

Halimeda (Monile) - pulse, grows quickly with consistent

Halimeda scabra (Money Plant) - pulse, grows quickly with consistent

Halymenia - pulse, grows quickly with consistent

Halymenia duchassaignii - pulse, grows quickly with consistent

Laurencia - pulse

Liagora - pulse

Manatee Grass - consistent

Mermaid's Wine Glass - pulse, grows quickly with consistent

Mermaid's Fan - pulse

Mermaid's Shot Glass - pulse, grows quickly with consistent

Oar Grass - pulse, grows quickly with consistent

Pencil Cap - pulse, grows quickly with consistent

Pink Galaxy - pulse

Red Gracilaria - pulse, grows quickly with consistent

Red Titan Algae - pulse

Sargassum - pulse

Saw Blade Caulerpa - consistent

Scroll Algae - pulse, grows quickly with consistent

Shaving Brush - pulse, grows quickly with consistent

Spatula Algae - pulse

Spider Algae - consistent

Suction Cup Caulerpa - consistent

Ulva - pulse, grows quickly with consistent

 

The most ideal refugiums offer a combination of all 3. The slower filtering algae is there for when your tank stops producing such high nutrient levels. Because they all compete for space, proper trimming of the consistent macros keeps them in check while the slower growers hedge your bet so to speak in case the faster growers die b/c of lack of nutrients. There is a long article about this at chuck's addiction that explains the idea better. It is here:

 

http://www.chucksaddiction.com/algae.html

 

On a side note: what is the deal with "Red Kelp" - Kelp is a cold water brown macro algae that grows to 80 feet or so. Fauchea, the family of algae usually sold under this name, top out at around 12 inches usually and are red. Anyway, thought I would add that .02 as well. Hopefully it will stick. My LFS sells all algae as "kelp", Caulerpa, chaeto etc... they are all kelp to her. :)

Edited by johnmaloney

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Basile
What is the deal with the alleopathy argument? :) It just seems to keep popping up. Okay so it does exist to some extent, but multiple types of algae are easily grown together, and alleopathy has no noticeable effects in an aquarium. My holding tanks are covered from head to toe with over 35 species of macro, and they have no problems. there are also a ton of tanks out there now with many different species of algae living together. The ocean is like this too. Sure they will compete for food and space, but you want them to compete for food and you control the space so why worry about it?

 

Additionally the chemicals in algae that are fish deterrents only make them taste bad to fish. They do not harm fish or corals. They are not toxins, they will not harm livestock.

 

Certainly corals are worse at this than macro algae. I am sure you can find one example of a tank with different kinds of coral in it on this website. No rule saying your refugium has to be boring. You can spice it up, and it will still filter.

 

Here is my philosophy on macro algae for refugiums:

 

You want both consistent nutrient uptake and pulse nutrient uptake:

 

Here is what I mean by those terms: (They use similar terminology in phycology by the idea is exactly the same)

 

Consistent Macros- Macro that need nutrient at a high level, all the time. They filter out nutrients quickly and are effective at dealing with established nutrient problems.

 

Pulse Macros - Can handle periods of low nutrient levels well, and are long lived plants

 

Pulse, grows quickly with consistent - somewhere in the middle, a spectrum below would have worked better but I am lazy.

 

Red Mangroves - pulse, grows quickly with consistent

Black Mangrove - pulse, grows quickly with consistent

Botryocladia (Red Grape) - pulse, grows quickly with consistent

Cactus Caulerpa - consistent

Caulerpa Mexicana - consistent

Caulerpa Prolifera - consistent

Chaeto - consistent

Christmas Tree - pulse, grows quickly with consistent

Codium - pulse

Dictyota ciliolata - consistent

Fauchea - pulse

Fern Caulerpa - consistent

Fire Fern - pulse

Flame Algae - pulse

Grape Caulerpa - consistent

Green Gracilaria - pulse, grows quickly with consistent

Halimeda (Monile) - pulse, grows quickly with consistent

Halimeda scabra (Money Plant) - pulse, grows quickly with consistent

Halymenia - pulse, grows quickly with consistent

Halymenia duchassaignii - pulse, grows quickly with consistent

Laurencia - pulse

Liagora - pulse

Manatee Grass - consistent

Mermaid's Wine Glass - pulse, grows quickly with consistent

Mermaid's Fan - pulse

Mermaid's Shot Glass - pulse, grows quickly with consistent

Oar Grass - pulse, grows quickly with consistent

Pencil Cap - pulse, grows quickly with consistent

Pink Galaxy - pulse

Red Gracilaria - pulse, grows quickly with consistent

Red Titan Algae - pulse

Sargassum - pulse

Saw Blade Caulerpa - consistent

Scroll Algae - pulse, grows quickly with consistent

Shaving Brush - pulse, grows quickly with consistent

Spatula Algae - pulse

Spider Algae - consistent

Suction Cup Caulerpa - consistent

Ulva - pulse, grows quickly with consistent

 

The most ideal refugiums offer a combination of all 3. The slower filtering algae is there for when your tank stops producing such high nutrient levels. Because they all compete for space, proper trimming of the consistent macros keeps them in check while the slower growers hedge your bet so to speak in case the faster growers die b/c of lack of nutrients. There is a long article about this at chuck's addiction that explains the idea better. It is here:

 

http://www.chucksaddiction.com/algae.html

 

On a side note: what is the deal with "Red Kelp" - Kelp is a cold water brown macro algae that grows to 80 feet or so. Fauchea, the family of algae usually sold under this name, top out at around 12 inches usually and are red. Anyway, thought I would add that .02 as well. Hopefully it will stick. My LFS sells all algae as "kelp", Caulerpa, chaeto etc... they are all kelp to her. :)

 

 

I have no argument ;) i'm conducting a biochemical experiment with different algae and their responce to competitors, and just pointing out whats going on between species. I never say it was not duable, for those who know what they are doing , but for a newcomer its best to keep it simple, thats all. But if they want to experiment themselfves why not. It was just a suggestion i was making to Jakesaw. But keep your argument coming i find them good and informative, and i never take any info the wrong way :) And nor should you ;)

Edited by Basile

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johnmaloney

oh no. no offense taken at all . the alleopathy thing has been going on all around the net, (this is the first time I have seen it on nano-reef). I just don't buy into it, or rather I think it is usually grossly exaggerated, so I try to strike it down wherever it pops up. :ninja:

 

:) finally found a good use for the ninja smiley.

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Basile
oh no. no offense taken at all . the alleopathy thing has been going on all around the net, (this is the first time I have seen it on nano-reef). I just don't buy into it, or rather I think it is usually grossly exaggerated, so I try to strike it down wherever it pops up. :ninja:

 

:) finally found a good use for the ninja smiley.

 

 

LOL :lol: i though it looked more like a Talliband :o LOL thanks. But sometimes small details make huge difference in small system, and people don't know why. In the ocean its not prevalent but in a close circuit, it does prevale in some cases. Thats my aim , to see if at all it effect other things.

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lakshwadeep

Read "Myth 13" about why refugiums should be refuges, where "To restate yet again, a refugium is a place provided to allow certain organisms to grow while freed of predation or herbivory.":

http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2003-12/eb/index.php

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Basile
Read "Myth 13" about why refugiums should be refuges, where "To restate yet again, a refugium is a place provided to allow certain organisms to grow while freed of predation or herbivory.":

http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2003-12/eb/index.php

 

 

Yes thank you, but my experiment won't be connected to a display tank, its on its own. So yes i'll see most inhabitant without any predator in. And want to see when is the crash in copepods population etc.

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lakshwadeep
Yes thank you, but my experiment won't be connected to a display tank, its on its own. So yes i'll see most inhabitant without any predator in. And want to see when is the crash in copepods population etc.

 

In that case, I would consider your tank an macroalgae "biotope".

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coolwaters

lol i i was scanning and i happen to see the word "Manatee" and i thought to myself good luck getting that in there. >.>

 

a CUC isnt needed just macroaglae and stuff like that. but i personally dont like my refuge covered in thick slimy stuff that will clog everything. so a few CUC wouldnt hurt that much.

 

i have a mangrove tree in my refuge. becareful they grow faster then weeds...superslow in freashwater...

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Basile
In that case, I would consider your tank an macroalgae "biotope".

 

 

I would agree. Its desing to be a controled enviroment, with followed parameters and help me predic or try, to predic crashes in the other fuges ; and to be a resource for my fuges who are connected to my tanks. A reseeding tank if you will. This experiement has been done before i'm just copying it for my own interest. I haven't looked at the results data from that experiment book i got.

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johnmaloney

Funny people are having very different results with freshwater mangroves and saltwater. They actually grow faster in freshwater, according to the growers/scientists, it is funny how an aquarium setting will throw things off.

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Colione

What about Mud in a refugium?

 

Is that significantly better than live sand?

 

I keep seeing Refugium Mud for sale, can anyone share their experience? Or explain the benefits?

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Basile
What about Mud in a refugium?

 

Is that significantly better than live sand?

 

I keep seeing Refugium Mud for sale, can anyone share their experience? Or explain the benefits?

 

I just bought Mud, or what they call "Miracle Mud". Its properties are different than aragonite, sand and the likes; in the fact that it contains different bacteria than sand or other medium. They also work slower and in a different way. Mostly they are anaerobic ( they don't need oxygen) , so they work slower but are more efficient to dispose of organic matter. So in refugium you have a lot of algae, some will die and waste,causing, some chemical imbalance and other effects,the mud is better equiped to deal with that phenomenan. It also has a lot of nitrate disolving bacterias, not found in sand, so it absorbe more compounds that way. It also has different critters, not found in sand that helps keep the balance in that tank and feed the the critters from the sand and aragonite, so they have a greater source of food. One problem with copepods and amphiopods, is that they have population crashes. Which mean they eat and multiply like crazy for a while and then when theirs nothing else to eat they all die of starvation. A refugium is like a spawning ground for those guys so they can in turn feed your fish in your display tank. What the mud will do is prolong the cycle and assure a longer and more regular cycle . Since it doesn't provide nutrience all at once, the crash is more gradual and your source of food , more regular, the population doesn't disapear totally that way. Ouff that was long . But its the bulk of the explanation for its use.

 

How to use it, simple; put your mud in the bottom, cover it with about 2 " of aragonite and add your LR or LR rubble , and your plant after cycle. This time i'm conducting an experiment to see if the algae will survive the cycling process, by the way add your water ver slowly and it wont take 2 or3 day to clear up , just one day.If you plant an algae( like mangrove) put it all the way down, if other kind try to keep them in the sand, because if you have to remove it , it will stir the mud and well a mess for 2 to 3 day.

post-34008-1221687667_thumb.jpg

post-34008-1221687688_thumb.jpg

post-34008-1221687713_thumb.jpg

Edited by Basile

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reefdan

what about sexy shrimp?

 

i have four in my fuge and i see pods running around all the time. i don't know if the sexies eat them but i have 4 in an approx 7 gallon fuge so they can't eat too many...

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Basile
what about sexy shrimp?

 

i have four in my fuge and i see pods running around all the time. i don't know if the sexies eat them but i have 4 in an approx 7 gallon fuge so they can't eat too many...

 

 

Well you just made your fuge irrelevent that way. The purpouse of the fuge is to give the pods a place to spawn where there'r no predators, so they can supplement your fish with live food, your shrimp must be happy, but not your fish lol, So get rid of the shrimp.read this about fuge, go to MYTH 13 in that link. http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2003-12/eb/index.php

 

Good luck.

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Eole00

my fuge is filled with mushrooms, xenia and gsp as well as a boatload of algae and astraea stars and a dsb. works great for me. but then again my fuge is bigger than my display tank.

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Basile
my fuge is filled with mushrooms, xenia and gsp as well as a boatload of algae and astraea stars and a dsb. works great for me. but then again my fuge is bigger than my display tank.

 

 

Well it not a fuge then read myth 13 on this link http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2003-12/eb/index.php

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dtfleming

Stop ref. that, Eric is a douche bag. He should be in jail for what he did to all those corals.

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Basile
Stop ref. that, Eric is a douche bag. He should be in jail for what he did to all those corals.

 

 

:huh: I'm sorry you lost me :huh: What r u talking about. Who's Eric????????

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