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SantaMonica

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It actually does not make the water yellow. At all. It clears the water, because of the higher oxygen levels.

 

Uh, high O2 levels don't clear the water; they tend to do the reverse. This is why tropical seas tend to be clear -- high temp = low O2 -- while temperate waters tend to be rather greener.

 

Not saying that turf filters aren't effective, but your science is off. :)

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Uh, high O2 levels don't clear the water; they tend to do the reverse. This is why tropical seas tend to be clear -- high temp = low O2 -- while temperate waters tend to be rather greener.

 

Not saying that turf filters aren't effective, but your science is off. :)

 

Eh, it's a bit more complicated than that. :) Water clarity has more to do with nutrient upwelling than temperature. The clearest recorded ocean in the world is also the coldest:

 

http://water.usgs.gov/osw/techniques/TSS/holdren.pdf

 

Granted his quote is silly to begin with, so just about any rebuttal will be more correct than his. :D

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SantaMonica
high O2 levels don't clear the water; they tend to do the reverse. This is why tropical seas tend to be clear -- high temp = low O2 -- while temperate waters tend to be rather greener.

 

I did not think this was correct, so I asked Eric Borneman and he replied:

 

No. Period. temperate waters can be very clear (like the Sargasso Sea) or very green from the nutrient rich deepwater upwellings at continental shelves. All of this occurs above and below the photic zone and above and below the oxygen minimal zone so the rational is totally wrong there. Also, surface ocean waters, temperate or tropical can be supersaturated with oxygen and very different clarities. The temperature and O2 only involves the saturation state of oxygen and shallow reef waters tend to be surpersaturated with oxygen and may have much higher oxygen than lower temp waters in other areas. And oxygen has largely to do with primary productivity (photosynthesis) and nutrient availability. Green water is generally due to high chlorophyll content, and is usually related to water nutrients and phytoplankton.

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I did not think this was correct, so I asked Eric Borneman and he replied:

 

... That your original statement was incorrect as hinted on the first page of this thread. There is nothing in Eric's reply that supports your argument that "O2 clears the water".

 

It's interesting that you choose to ignore most of what it said by others in this thread and continue your book-long copy/paste posts. As HD said, you have mischaracterized the contents of virtually all of those posts in your little 1-2 sentence summaries.

 

I guess that is a good way to apparently support your arguments without actually doing it.

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HecticDialectics
It actually does not make the water yellow. At all. It clears the water, because of the higher oxygen levels.

 

 

I did not think this was correct, so I asked Eric Borneman and he replied:

 

No. Period. temperate waters can be very clear (like the Sargasso Sea) or very green from the nutrient rich deepwater upwellings at continental shelves. All of this occurs above and below the photic zone and above and below the oxygen minimal zone so the rational is totally wrong there. Also, surface ocean waters, temperate or tropical can be supersaturated with oxygen and very different clarities. The temperature and O2 only involves the saturation state of oxygen and shallow reef waters tend to be surpersaturated with oxygen and may have much higher oxygen than lower temp waters in other areas. And oxygen has largely to do with primary productivity (photosynthesis) and nutrient availability. Green water is generally due to high chlorophyll content, and is usually related to water nutrients and phytoplankton.

 

 

... That your original statement was incorrect as hinted on the first page of this thread. There is nothing in Eric's reply that supports your argument that "O2 clears the water".

 

In fact, I find Santa Monica's two statements to be in direct contradiction with each other.

 

Santa Monica, could you please resolve this discrepancy? If high oxygen content clears the water, how can water with high oxygen content vary widely in clarity?

 

And, if green water is generally due to "high chlorophyll content" (water has a chlorophyll content? is this chlorophyll free-floating? lol), and related to high nutrient levels, how does a higher level of o2 cause it to be clearer?

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SantaMonica
If high oxygen content clears the water, how can water with high oxygen content vary widely in clarity?

 

I did not want to post all of Eric's reply, but the gist of it, and of my previous reply of O2 clearing the water, is trying to say that it's ozone that directly clears the water, but certain forms of 02 can clear water too, and, all clarity reports from scrubber users say their water is clearer. In other words, I'm using reports of users, and Eric is using science. That's about as far as much as I can say.

 

And, if green water is generally due to "high chlorophyll content" (water has a chlorophyll content? is this chlorophyll free-floating? lol), and related to high nutrient levels, how does a higher level of o2 cause it to be clearer?

 

Oh yes water has huge chlorophyll content. Phytoplakton is one of the biggest biomasses in the ocean, and is also a primary producer. That's why it grows on your glass so quick. And there are technical reasons for certain forms of 02 to clear the water (such as caused by UV), which I'm not qualified to explain.

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er1c_the_reefer
I did not want to post all of Eric's reply, but the gist of it, and of my previous reply of O2 clearing the water, is trying to say that it's ozone that directly clears the water, but certain forms of 02 can clear water too, and, all clarity reports from scrubber users say their water is clearer. In other words, I'm using reports of users, and Eric is using science. That's about as far as much as I can say.

 

Oh yes water has huge chlorophyll content. Phytoplakton is one of the biggest biomasses in the ocean, and is also a primary producer. That's why it grows on your glass so quick. And there are technical reasons for certain forms of 02 to clear the water (such as caused by UV), which I'm not qualified to explain.

 

 

omg... wow. where to start. ok.

 

dissolved oxygen gas in seawater (O2, or diatomic oxygen) and ozone (O3, triatomic oxygen) are 2 totally different compounds. diatomic oxygen can become radicalized into O3 via UV rays and lightning, but most of this occurs in the earth's atmosphere and very limitedly in the oceans due to the diminished amounts of UV radiation that actually reaches the ocean surface relative to that which is absorbed in the atmosphere. O3 is highly reactive; it is created in home reefs very limitedly in UV sterilizers, but more common using corona discharges in ozone generators.

 

in reef application, the ozone created is reacted in a chamber and is used to oxidize organic compounds and break carbon bonds; basically it clumps small particles together not normally picked up by protein skimmers so that it can be skimmed out and it breaks down larger complex, molecules so that it can be utilized by bacteria. ozone is generally reacted in protein skimmers because of the large contact area between gas and water and reacted water is ran over carbon to deactivate excess O3. overdosing ozone in a home aquarium is often hazardous to aquarium occupants, and if ran over an algae scrubber, would quickly kill the algae on it.

 

the gist: the ability of O2 to clarify water is moot at best, but once O2 is radicalized into ozone, the ability of ozone is clarify water is well known. the ability of both algae scrubbers (assuming constant photosynthesis) and protein skimmers to oxygenate water has not been compared (but if someone wants to mail me a redox probe i can do it), however, the ability of an algae scrubber to clarify water, if any, does not arise from oxygenation.

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HecticDialectics
I did not want to post all of Eric's reply, but the gist of it, and of my previous reply of O2 clearing the water, is trying to say that it's ozone that directly clears the water, but certain forms of 02 can clear water too, and, all clarity reports from scrubber users say their water is clearer. In other words, I'm using reports of users, and Eric is using science. That's about as far as much as I can say.

 

 

 

Oh yes water has huge chlorophyll content. Phytoplakton is one of the biggest biomasses in the ocean, and is also a primary producer. That's why it grows on your glass so quick. And there are technical reasons for certain forms of 02 to clear the water (such as caused by UV), which I'm not qualified to explain.

 

 

oh my god. you literally have zero clue what you are talking about.

 

I just can't believe your only response was that when you said high oxygen (o2) content clears the water, you actually meant ozone... especially considering the context of every single post was quite clearly NOT in reference to ozone. :rolleyes:

 

 

 

So Santa Monica, answer this then, if you actually meant ozone instead of oxygen, are you seriously contending that your algae scrubber does not cause yellow water because... it creates higher ozone levels?

 

 

 

lol

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SantaMonica
the ability of an algae scrubber to clarify water, if any, does not arise from oxygenation.

 

This may be correct, as Eric has pointed out that it may actually be the lowered N and P which limit chlorophyll (phyto) in the water.

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... it may actually be the lowered N and P which limit chlorophyll (phyto) in the water.

 

It may be nutrient limitation that limits phyto growth? :lol: There is no "may" about it, it has been demonstrated again and again in marine systems that phytoplankton are nutrient limited.

 

Which nutrient depends on which phyto and where in the world you are talking about but most marine systems are N limited. Some may be P, Si or Fe limited or there may be one or more co-limitations. Many littoral benthic microalgae are carbon limited (DIC, not DOC).

 

Also from page two of this thread:

 

Reports from user have said that it works in a related fashion to ozone: Higher O2 helps clear the water by oxidizing the carbon.

 

I will say this though: microalgae don't produce much, if any, ozone. If they did and they didn't immediately mitigate it, the ozone would oxidize their cell contents and they would die. O2 will not clear the water in the same way that O3 will, which is why you have no link to support your claim.
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SantaMonica

Update: Pancaked screens

 

Since nobody is currently manufacturing a proper screen for a scrubber, we have to make the best of the materials we can get. Whatever material you use, it has been found that stacking two screens together works better than one. This is when you "pancake" two sheet of screen material together; they can be glued, sewn, or clamped together. This gives the algae much more to grab onto.

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theplatypus
wtf? you should win best troll on nano-reef.com

 

 

This guy has posted this exact thread on every forum that I can think of.

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SantaMonica

Update: Empty Spots On Screen

 

Some people have small spots on the screen, about 1" (25mm) wide, that have no algae; these spots are scattered across the screen (not just near the bulb). These spots are where algae actually WAS growing, but the algae could not hold on, so it let go and went into the water. The reasons the algae could not hold on are:

 

1. The screen is too smooth (most common problem). No matter what material you use, you should use rough sandpaper to really mess up the surface. If the material is clear (like acrylic; not recommended), you should not be able to see through it at all. If the material is not clear, you should not be able to see a reflection, at all. If the material is a solid sheet, holes should be drilled every 1/4" (6mm)... instead of every inch like many people have tried. With solid sheets, instead of drilling holes, it's better to lay a layer of rug canvas, plasic canvas, shade cloth, or perforated drawer liner, across the surface. You would sand this also.

 

2. The screen is too thin. Screens should be about 1/4" (6mm) thick. This is thicker than most materials, so you should use two or three pancaked layers of material. This gives the "roots" of the algae more to grab onto.

 

3. The lights are not being turned off each night (18 hours ON, 6 hours OFF). So the algae grows, but then gets weak because it cannot rest. So it lets go.

 

4. The flow is too low (the opposite of what you would think). Higher flow delivers more nutrients to the algae (so it can grow strong), and also gives the algae more protection from the light (since the thickness of the water on the screen is more.)

 

5. The bulbs are actually TOO near, or TOO strong (this is very rare, however). It seems that bulbs that are 60 watt CFL (actual, not equivalent), AND which are 2 inches (5cm) from the screen or less, start to do this. If your flow is strong, then try decreasing the light by either (1) reducing the ON hours, (2) moving the light out to 4", or (3) getting smaller bulbs. But only try one technique at a time.

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SantaMonica

Update: Screen Sequence

 

Here is the typical sequence of algae on a new screen: First is a light brown coating, like a slime. After a week of that, you clean it lightly, and the next week you get a darker brown. After you clean that, you'll either get very dark brown/black stuff which stays very hard and thin, or you'll start getting some green hair. If it's the dark stuff, clean it right way (don't wait a week). After a few cleanings of this dark stuff, it too will start turning green. After a month or two, most of the growth will be green hair. If you start getting purple cyano on the screen, it means your light is too weak or too far away. If you start getting a hard yellowish plastic-like coating that covers the algae, it means your flow is too low in that area. If you start getting bald spots near your bulb, it means you are leaving your bulb on 24 hours, when you should be turning it off 6 hours a day. If you start getting round holes in your algae, it means pods are eating through it, because you are not using freshwater in your 7-day cleanings.

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I just went with the Aqua Equalizer and called it a day. They are made in Germany, and you know the Germans make great stuff.

 

Later

JimC

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SantaMonica

Screen Recomendations

 

I've been doing research on the ultimate screen material. I want it to have all the best characteristics, so if you have some ideas as to what the material should do, or what it should have, let's hear it.

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As a science major with a "little bit" of university level chemistry/biology background (60+ credits worth) I must let you know how incredibly fortunate you are that ignorance is not physically painful. I sense an elaborate trolling so that will be all.

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SantaMonica

Taken from "It's In The Water", by Ron Shimek

http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2002-02/rs/feature/index.php

 

[Aquarists have] the feeling that organisms somehow "use up," "change," or "consume" many of these [trace] chemicals, and in doing so, forever remove the chemicals from the reef aquarium system. This assumption is not completely false, some chemicals are "used up" and removed from the system, but most are not. Organisms are dynamic entities, and while some chemicals are temporarily sequestered away, such chemicals generally remain available in the system due to metabolic turnover. The only real exceptions to this as far as organisms are concerned are those chemicals, such as calcium, which get incorporated into an insoluble matrix.

 

Several trace elements are found in elevated concentrations in aquarium water [Table 2; Figure 2]. Some of these metals have extremely high concentrations relative to NSW; tin has already been mentioned as having concentrations over 200,000 times above normal, but Thallium, Titanium, Aluminum, Zinc, Cobalt, Antimony, and Copper all have concentrations of over 95 times normal.

 

Several of the trace metals varied in concert, particularly Cobalt, Tin, Zinc, Titanium, Copper and Vanadium, and lower but still positive correlations with Nickel and Aluminum are found. All of these metals are found at concentrations far above those of natural sea water. Some of these concentrations are almost unbelievably high. Tin has an average concentration in our systems of over 200,000 times greater than in natural sea water.

 

Increases in many of these same metals are correlated with the age of the tank. One explanation for that pattern would be that they may build up with the passage of time.

 

The older tanks also have more ammonia, nitrate/nitrite, phosphorus, iodine and copper than younger tanks.

 

Many of the trace element concentrations are lower than they are in freshly made up artificial sea water. Whether this indicates organism use, or abiotic chemical reactions, is unclear. Even though these levels are lower than in "fresh" artificial sea water, they are still very much higher than in natural sea water, and may still indicate a cause for concern.

 

[scrubbers remove metals; skimmers do not]

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HecticDialectics

facepalm.jpg

 

 

In the quote you provide, Shimek does not say scrubbers remove metals, nor does he say that skimmers do not remove metals.

 

 

Srsly, can we just ban this guy? He's obviously not here for any reason other than egregious disregard for truth...

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facepalm.jpg

 

 

 

This ^ and...

 

In the quote you provide, Shimek does not say scrubbers remove metals, nor does he say that skimmers do not remove metals.

 

This ^ as well.

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