ddk997 Posted July 10, 2008 Share Posted July 10, 2008 I recently purchased a firefish from my LFS. Its been the 3rd day in the tank, its swimming around happily and eating. Its acting normal like a firefish should, however when I take a closer look I can see some white stuff on one side of the fish like tiny white specs. At times the peppermint shrimp I have in the tank would try to what it looks like "try to clean the fish". They love to stay together whereever they are going in the tank, currently they are very social and swimming. I am not positive if it's ick, if anyone has a photo of ICK specificly on a firefish, please help. I will be doing a 50% water change within 2 days, and removing my chemi-pure elite and phosban. Adding a new Chemi-pure, and Kent Nitrate Absorber. I am also planning on sucking everything up with a vacumm in the back chamber. ( first chamber, had nothing for awhile so im assuming food that was being sucked by the pump, got stuck somewhere in teh 2nd chamber in the Phosban and chemi-pure bags.) Sorry for the huge post, Thank you for your time for reading this and helping me out. Link to comment
Urchinhead Posted July 10, 2008 Share Posted July 10, 2008 Cleaning your tank will not help the problem You are going to have to treat for ich. This will mean either chasing your firefish around the tank until you net it so you can dip it or setting up a QT tank. Better to do a QT tank. Reason being is ich meds usually contain copper which will kill any corals and inverts you have. You will have to treat the fish for about a week or so with the meds and run your tank without any fish in it for at least 6 weeks better 8. This will cause all ich in the tank to die off. You will need to treat any other fish in the tank as well. If you don't have a QT tank then you can go to PetCo and pick up a 10 gallon tank for about $40-$50. Don't put sand or live rock in. Just a few bits of PVC pipe for the fish to hide in. Put in fresh salt water and do a 10% water change every 2-3 days to keep the bad stuff down. No need to cycle Link to comment
Hoosierfan Posted July 10, 2008 Share Posted July 10, 2008 Cleaning your tank will not help the problem You are going to have to treat for ich. This will mean either chasing your firefish around the tank until you net it so you can dip it or setting up a QT tank. Better to do a QT tank. Reason being is ich meds usually contain copper which will kill any corals and inverts you have. You will have to treat the fish for about a week or so with the meds and run your tank without any fish in it for at least 6 weeks better 8. This will cause all ich in the tank to die off. You will need to treat any other fish in the tank as well. If you don't have a QT tank then you can go to PetCo and pick up a 10 gallon tank for about $40-$50. Don't put sand or live rock in. Just a few bits of PVC pipe for the fish to hide in. Put in fresh salt water and do a 10% water change every 2-3 days to keep the bad stuff down. No need to cycle +1 Link to comment
kkyyllee Posted July 10, 2008 Share Posted July 10, 2008 eh i wouldn't qt thats just gonna stress it out alot more, unless your params in your tank are bad, id just leave it in there, why are you doign a 50% water change? Link to comment
ddk997 Posted July 10, 2008 Author Share Posted July 10, 2008 Cleaning your tank will not help the problem You are going to have to treat for ich. This will mean either chasing your firefish around the tank until you net it so you can dip it or setting up a QT tank. Better to do a QT tank. Reason being is ich meds usually contain copper which will kill any corals and inverts you have. You will have to treat the fish for about a week or so with the meds and run your tank without any fish in it for at least 6 weeks better 8. This will cause all ich in the tank to die off. You will need to treat any other fish in the tank as well. If you don't have a QT tank then you can go to PetCo and pick up a 10 gallon tank for about $40-$50. Don't put sand or live rock in. Just a few bits of PVC pipe for the fish to hide in. Put in fresh salt water and do a 10% water change every 2-3 days to keep the bad stuff down. No need to cycle Does that mean I also have to buy a new heater? eh i wouldn't qt thats just gonna stress it out alot more, unless your params in your tank are bad, id just leave it in there, why are you doign a 50% water change? Tested my nitrates and they were alittle high, 20 I am also guessing because my chemical filters are also worked out(been 6 months) and had no filteration in my first chamber assuming all the food would get stuck in the 2nd chamber which is probaly causing the nitrate high levels. I will be adding filter floss to teh first chamber and changing it every week. I finally got a real nitrate test kit (API) a few days ago, Before I never really tested my tank and its been running smoothly for over five months. All inverts (pom-pom,peppermint,hermit) still alive since day 1. Link to comment
Urchinhead Posted July 10, 2008 Share Posted July 10, 2008 #1 people go back and forth on QT and how it stresses the fish. From my experience I QT all fish who get sick and anyone else in the tank who is exposed. I also QT all new fish for 10 days and do prophylactic Formalin dips when I first get the fish and every 3 days after for a week. It keeps my tanks disease free (knock on wood). It doesn't stress the fish as much as people think and its better than loosing the fish. #2 20 ppm nitrates are allot high and are adding additional stress to the fish. Doing a 50% wc is going to do more harm than good. Too much turn over in terms of water unless the water you are putting in matches the water in the tank in terms of temp, pH, alk, etc. Yes. Food and other gunk caught in the chambers will cause nitrate spikes. You may have the fish/inverts looking 'ok' but being stressed by high nitrate levels. It will not kill them necessarily but it does stress them. The tank I am referring to at Petco includes a heater, tank, light, cover, HOB biowheel carbon filter, and other misc crap for $40-$50. So you don't need a new heater. Link to comment
ddk997 Posted July 10, 2008 Author Share Posted July 10, 2008 #1 people go back and forth on QT and how it stresses the fish. From my experience I QT all fish who get sick and anyone else in the tank who is exposed. I also QT all new fish for 10 days and do prophylactic Formalin dips when I first get the fish and every 3 days after for a week. It keeps my tanks disease free (knock on wood). It doesn't stress the fish as much as people think and its better than loosing the fish. #2 20 ppm nitrates are allot high and are adding additional stress to the fish. Doing a 50% wc is going to do more harm than good. Too much turn over in terms of water unless the water you are putting in matches the water in the tank in terms of temp, pH, alk, etc. Yes. Food and other gunk caught in the chambers will cause nitrate spikes. You may have the fish/inverts looking 'ok' but being stressed by high nitrate levels. It will not kill them necessarily but it does stress them. The tank I am referring to at Petco includes a heater, tank, light, cover, HOB biowheel carbon filter, and other misc crap for $40-$50. So you don't need a new heater. Thank you for your help , I appreciated it very much. I came home today and it seems to me like the firefish has no white specs anymore, completely GONE! how is that possible!? peppermint shrimp cleaned it up?? Link to comment
Dragonfire00 Posted July 10, 2008 Share Posted July 10, 2008 Thank you for your help , I appreciated it very much. I came home today and it seems to me like the firefish has no white specs anymore, completely GONE! how is that possible!? peppermint shrimp cleaned it up?? the reason the fish gets "sick" is because of a weakened immune system due to stress. if your tank is healthy and your water in good condition, the fish's immune system will naturally "cure" itself. I have never QT a fish if it gets ich or something, i just keep pristine waters and the fishes immune system takes care of itself. on the other hand your nitrates are a little high, so your lucky that firefish are generally hardy. I would work on the nitrate problem with things like fuges (never have to worry about nitrates) and possible water changes. The only problems with doing large water changes to quickly is it will mess with the stability of the tank. STABILITY is key. Link to comment
ddk997 Posted July 10, 2008 Author Share Posted July 10, 2008 the reason the fish gets "sick" is because of a weakened immune system due to stress. if your tank is healthy and your water in good condition, the fish's immune system will naturally "cure" itself. I have never QT a fish if it gets ich or something, i just keep pristine waters and the fishes immune system takes care of itself. on the other hand your nitrates are a little high, so your lucky that firefish are generally hardy. I would work on the nitrate problem with things like fuges (never have to worry about nitrates) and possible water changes. The only problems with doing large water changes to quickly is it will mess with the stability of the tank. STABILITY is key. Do you reccomend I do a small water change tomorrow? Tomorrow, I am planning on taking out what I have in my 2nd chamber and sucking all the water up out of there all 3 chambers with a vacum. I will also be removing the 6 month old chemi-pure elite & phosban. Which I will be replacing with Kent Nitrate Absorber and Chemipure REGULAR. I will ALSO add a filter sponge to the first chamber, hoping it will help catch anything and preventing it from getting into the 2nd chamber. Link to comment
Urchinhead Posted July 10, 2008 Share Posted July 10, 2008 the reason the fish gets "sick" is because of a weakened immune system due to stress. if your tank is healthy and your water in good condition, the fish's immune system will naturally "cure" itself. I have never QT a fish if it gets ich or something, i just keep pristine waters and the fishes immune system takes care of itself. Um... No. Not completely true. Yes a weakened immune system does contribute to a fish's susceptibility to as well as ability to combat parasite/pathogen infection but it isn't the only factor in the equation and for that matter some pathogens and parasites are so virulent that once infected unless you treat ASAP you will loose the fish. Brook comes to mind as an example. And one that I haver personal experience with. Think of it this way. You have an outbreak of MRSA in your sinus. Do you eat lots of fruits and vegetables and exercise daily then rely on your immune system to battle it or do you go see your doctor who start's you on a a course of Levaquin? Answer: If you are smart you see your doctor. MRSA isn't going to get better all by your body's immune system. Especially if its in an active outbreak. My point is there is a root cause of the outbreak, most likely the high nitrates. This has weakened the fish's immune system. Restoring the tank to pristine conditions will not help the fish as much as treating the fish for the parasite. on the other hand your nitrates are a little high, so your lucky that firefish are generally hardy. I would work on the nitrate problem with things like fuges (never have to worry about nitrates) and possible water changes. The only problems with doing large water changes to quickly is it will mess with the stability of the tank. STABILITY is key. Firefish generally are not considered hardy fish. They are better than say... A jawfish but I wouldn't call them hardy. Clowns on the other hand... That's a hardy fish! As to never having to worry about nitrates... I just had a 20 ppm spike in nitrates without being able to find the cause. I have a 40 gallon tank with a 9 gallon sump that has a 3.5 gallon fuge that has allot of chaeto, live rock, and a deep sand bed as well as run a Tunze 9005 with a bag of Chemi Pure that gets changed every 2 months. Fuges, active carbon, and skimmers do not mean you never have to worry about Nitrates. They help but the key is preventing it from happening in the first place by not over feeding, not over stocking, and making sure that if something dies you get it out quickly. Fortunately I fixed the symptom by doing at 20% water change today at lunch but I have yet to find the source. My suspicion is that a large snail died somewhere I can't see it and my CUC isn't able to easily access it. Do you reccomend I do a small water change tomorrow? Tomorrow, I am planning on taking out what I have in my 2nd chamber and sucking all the water up out of there all 3 chambers with a vacum. I will also be removing the 6 month old chemi-pure elite & phosban. Which I will be replacing with Kent Nitrate Absorber and Chemipure REGULAR. I will ALSO add a filter sponge to the first chamber, hoping it will help catch anything and preventing it from getting into the 2nd chamber. I recommend you do a 20% water change and try to get the water you are adding to be as close to the temp, alk, and pH of your existing water. You can do this by heating the water you are putting in to the temp your tank is at and adding a buffer for alk. pH can be changed by adding a power head and oxygenating the water. Taking out the stuff you have in the back must be done carefully as it will release allot of gunk into the water that will cause a nitrate spike. Do the removal before you do the water change. Just wash that sponge regularly. As in at least once a week. Oh and I don't think that pepermint shrimp are fish cleaners. I may be wrong though. Sorry. Link to comment
hazmat Posted July 11, 2008 Share Posted July 11, 2008 Um... No. Not completely true. Yes a weakened immune system does contribute to a fish's susceptibility to as well as ability to combat parasite/pathogen infection but it isn't the only factor in the equation and for that matter some pathogens and parasites are so virulent that once infected unless you treat ASAP you will loose the fish. Brook comes to mind as an example. And one that I haver personal experience with. Think of it this way. You have an outbreak of MRSA in your sinus. Do you eat lots of fruits and vegetables and exercise daily then rely on your immune system to battle it or do you go see your doctor who start's you on a a course of Levaquin? Answer: If you are smart you see your doctor. MRSA isn't going to get better all by your body's immune system. Especially if its in an active outbreak. My point is there is a root cause of the outbreak, most likely the high nitrates. This has weakened the fish's immune system. Restoring the tank to pristine conditions will not help the fish as much as treating the fish for the parasite. Firefish generally are not considered hardy fish. They are better than say... A jawfish but I wouldn't call them hardy. Clowns on the other hand... That's a hardy fish! As to never having to worry about nitrates... I just had a 20 ppm spike in nitrates without being able to find the cause. I have a 40 gallon tank with a 9 gallon sump that has a 3.5 gallon fuge that has allot of chaeto, live rock, and a deep sand bed as well as run a Tunze 9005 with a bag of Chemi Pure that gets changed every 2 months. Fuges, active carbon, and skimmers do not mean you never have to worry about Nitrates. They help but the key is preventing it from happening in the first place by not over feeding, not over stocking, and making sure that if something dies you get it out quickly. Fortunately I fixed the symptom by doing at 20% water change today at lunch but I have yet to find the source. My suspicion is that a large snail died somewhere I can't see it and my CUC isn't able to easily access it. I recommend you do a 20% water change and try to get the water you are adding to be as close to the temp, alk, and pH of your existing water. You can do this by heating the water you are putting in to the temp your tank is at and adding a buffer for alk. pH can be changed by adding a power head and oxygenating the water. Taking out the stuff you have in the back must be done carefully as it will release allot of gunk into the water that will cause a nitrate spike. Do the removal before you do the water change. Just wash that sponge regularly. As in at least once a week. Oh and I don't think that pepermint shrimp are fish cleaners. I may be wrong though. Sorry. Actually, MRSA is treated with Bactrim. Sulfa drugs are 1st drug of choice for methicillin resistant staph aureus!! Thanks for your help on the other thread! Link to comment
veshman Posted July 11, 2008 Share Posted July 11, 2008 I've heard that firefish are often able to overcome ick on their own. Either way, you'll want to leave your tank empty for 2 monthes (as ppl have said) so that it dies out. Link to comment
Urchinhead Posted July 11, 2008 Share Posted July 11, 2008 Actually,MRSA is treated with Bactrim. Sulfa drugs are 1st drug of choice for methicillin resistant staph aureus!! Thanks for your help on the other thread! You are welcome. You are right. Bactrim is the first choice for sinus based infections but Doxy is used for outbreaks on the skin. Both are sulfa based but since you are getting technical about it its going to come down to the location of the infection. I just pulled lev. out of my arse because I had it on my mind in relation to something else and its the big gun in the armory. Link to comment
JerseyChick Posted July 11, 2008 Share Posted July 11, 2008 So say a fish has ich and you have a "viewing box" that clips on the tank and does not allow for water exchange... Could you hypothetically treat it in the tiny viewer then let it swim in the tank after putting the treatment on it... or is that a bad idea all together. What about a quick dip in a freshwater tank? In the case that a qt tank was un-available... Link to comment
johnmaloney Posted July 12, 2008 Share Posted July 12, 2008 I have always been told that firefish can't get ich because they have skin rather than scales, and because of this they can't be affected by the parasite. I swear mine got it before, but it went away super fast. An experienced reef said that sometimes when they sleep on the sand, little particles will attach to the mucous on their skin. What do you guys think? Link to comment
SeeDemTails Posted July 12, 2008 Share Posted July 12, 2008 Cleaning your tank will not help the problem You are going to have to treat for ich. Sorry, I love ya, but your wrong. #1 people go back and forth on QT and how it stresses the fish. From my experience I QT all fish who get sick and anyone else in the tank who is exposed. I also QT all new fish for 10 days and do prophylactic Formalin dips when I first get the fish and every 3 days after for a week. It keeps my tanks disease free (knock on wood). Wow I would hate to be a fish you buy! Talk about torture! My tanks are disease free too, and my fish haven't been through hell and back. eh i wouldn't qt thats just gonna stress it out alot more, unless your params in your tank are bad, id just leave it in there, why are you doign a 50% water change? 100% correct.... I came home today and it seems to me like the firefish has no white specs anymore, completely GONE! how is that possible!? peppermint shrimp cleaned it up?? Because it was stressed from the move, and recoved on its own because you left it alone. The fish would be dead if you put it in a QT. This is a prime example of how people kill fish because they over react from one person posting "use a QT tank", which then leads to the fish dying. Good job no over reacting. the reason the fish gets "sick" is because of a weakened immune system due to stress. if your tank is healthy and your water in good condition, the fish's immune system will naturally "cure" itself. I have never QT a fish if it gets ich or something, i just keep pristine waters and the fishes immune system takes care of itself. Also 100% correct. I would believe what I read on the internet, IF I hadnt cured dozens and dozens of fish first hand, with nothing more than good water quality, no stress and good food. Ich is always present in your system IMO, fish carry it, I dont care what any article says. So heres a good question for you.........How does the ich live in your system without infecting the fish, if it need to feed on fish to survive? And if the fish are not carrying ich on them, shouldnt the ich die off, by so called "scientific definition"? The fish always carry it, and it always lives in your tank, even if it is fallow for weeks. I have seen to many customers with mature tanks with fish that have lived in the system for years, only to get ich from a broken heater or slacking on maintenance. As long as you have fish, if you slack on maintenance or cause excessive stress, you will get ich. Also, I have put fish covered in ich, in my tank, with many other fish, only to watch, just like you have, the ich disappear in a few days, if not over night. This isnt something you can beat, you can very easily keep it at bay though, just by having a stable tank with good water and feeding good foods. Health is key. If you look hard, you will find many threads about ich, and people using QT, and those working on ther tank versus setting up another system.........9 out of 10 times the QT'ed fish dies. End of argument. Link to comment
hazmat Posted July 14, 2008 Share Posted July 14, 2008 SeeDem, what are you feeding you fish? Do you do the garlic thing? Do you feed daily? Thanks, Heidi Link to comment
justbob Posted July 14, 2008 Share Posted July 14, 2008 The Garlic thing....good suggestion. I've had great luck soaking frozen food in pure garlic juice. You can mash garlic and collect the juice, or there are some garlic extracts on the market made specifically for this. Some are skeptical, but I would try it for sure. Has worked like a charm for me. Link to comment
hazmat Posted July 14, 2008 Share Posted July 14, 2008 So basically the "non" QT method is regular water changes and good food? Is there a certain amount on the water changes? And is there specifically a food that is "healthier" than others? I do weekly WC's and feed every other day mysis, marine cuisine. Is the only other thing adding the garlic? So is all that enough? Details! I need details!!! Link to comment
SeeDemTails Posted July 15, 2008 Share Posted July 15, 2008 I usually feed flake, twice a day, in the morning I feed formula 2 and at night I feed formula 1, and sometimes I mix it up. Then, every couple days I feed some mysis too. I do not use garlic. I like flake as the main food better because I feel it puts less waste in your tank vs frozen, but I still feed frozen as a suppliment. I do weekly 10% changes, but your system may require more. Link to comment
Urchinhead Posted July 15, 2008 Share Posted July 15, 2008 Sorry, I love ya, but your wrong. Wow I would hate to be a fish you buy! Talk about torture! My tanks are disease free too, and my fish haven't been through hell and back. Cheers love. No harm no foul. YMMV. Yep. Call me Dr. Mengele of the fish world. Seriously though I am afraid that after being faced with brook and loosing a clown and having to run my tank fallow for two months, having a fish come in with ich and infecting the other fish in spite of having 0's across the board and being fanatical about my water quality and environment, then talking to a vet friend of mine who works at the Long Beach Aquarium my SOP is the QT and Formalin. I actually have backed way off the multiple dips unless the fish is showing signs of something bad like brook. They get an initial dip before they go into QT then they are left alone until its time to move to the main tank. My QT tank has several pieces of PVC in it for them to hide in, they get fed lightly twice a day, I keep only PC's on, and they stay in the garage where my 2 1/2 year old isn't able to scare the snot out of them by running around the tank. The QT tank doesn't get used all that often as I rarely add fish. The most recent add was after my tank temp spike to the high 90's courtesy of California's wonderful weather where I lost two Helfich and ultimately my six line as well as several corals. Doom on me for trusting my wife not to shut the AC off and not having a chiller. Ich is always present in your system IMO, fish carry it, I dont care what any article says. Interesting. Ich is a parasite. So this is not logical. I am going to start a thread on this based on some research I have done. Link to comment
SeeDemTails Posted July 15, 2008 Share Posted July 15, 2008 So, in theory, you are saying that a fish that doesnt show any signs of the disease can and will carry the parasite for a long period of time, only for it to become apparent later? Because if you are I agree!.....Fish always have it, and the ONLY time it kills them is when they are exposed to less than adequate settings. So, if people work on making their tanks cleaner, fish would be less stressed and ich would not be the killer it is! You can kill ich from the fish, but at what expense? I would say that the process to rid ich from fish is like chemotherapy for cancer patients, sure it kills the diesease.....if they survive it! My point is that certain fish are just as easy to keep with ich in a good enviroments vs the risk of putting that fish through qt to rid it of ich, which is IMO more likely to kill the fish than any future bout with ich IF you know how to maintain a tank. Link to comment
Urchinhead Posted July 15, 2008 Share Posted July 15, 2008 So, in theory, you are saying that a fish that doesnt show any signs of the disease can and will carry the parasite for a long period of time, only for it to become apparent later? Er... Yes... Sort of. Because if you are I agree!.....Fish always have it, and the ONLY time it kills them is when they are exposed to less than adequate settings. So, if people work on making their tanks cleaner, fish would be less stressed and ich would not be the killer it is! It isn't that ich by itself kills it is the side effects aka symptoms that ich causes that lead to fish death. And all fish do not always have it... Fish can and do develop an immunity to ich actually. You can kill ich from the fish, but at what expense? I would say that the process to rid ich from fish is like chemotherapy for cancer patients, sure it kills the diesease.....if they survive it! This is true. My point is that certain fish are just as easy to keep with ich in a good enviroments vs the risk of putting that fish through qt to rid it of ich, which is IMO more likely to kill the fish than any future bout with ich IF you know how to maintain a tank. On the first part of this sentence we agree 100%. On the middle part I respectfully disagree and on the last part I again agree 100% Link to comment
ddk997 Posted July 15, 2008 Author Share Posted July 15, 2008 All this information is very helpful!! Link to comment
SeeDemTails Posted July 15, 2008 Share Posted July 15, 2008 The issue is simple and plain. An experienced marine hobbist could keep a fish alive through a QT process, but the fact of the matter is that 90% of people whos fish get ich are beginners and the fish has ich because of their poor husbandry and/or lack of patience when adding fish. No disrespect to any beginners, this is how you learn. Telling these people who just set up their display to rush out and buy QT tanks is a certain death sentence to fish. I respect what you are trying to do, but you need to educate people WHY their fish are getting ich first, and then attempt to tell them how to attempt fix it later, without killing the fish, which is hard for anyone. Thats why IMO keeping the fish healthy is a better option. 90% of ich cases can be solved by cleaning the tank up and feeding good food. Simple as that. You are essentially telling them to treat the equivalent of a cold with the equivalent of chemotherapy. All the fish needs is a little chicken noodle soup in the form of water changes and good food. Link to comment
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