A really interesting and fantastic thread on skimming and skimmate

[Uhuru]

take a look at the latest RC TOTM and tell the owner his skimmer is doing more harm than good LOL

[Paulc]

....Now the reason it does not seem to match quantity to our eye is because of the vastness of the playing field. but it is MUCH greater than the efficiency of our little toy protein skimmers in comparison.

You can't site the water volume around a given reef system as a viable example. "Why?" Oceanic and inner tidal currents.

Oceanic and inner tidal currents rapidly turn over huge volumes of water. In inner coastal areas the nightly tides helps move double the volume.

The same water is never in any one spot very long at all.

 

Absolutely no comparison what so ever with our little glass boxes.

 

 

 

I totally agree with you on this... my issue is that we always seem to be fighting to reduce DOC + phospahates in our tanks but have to supply the necessary nutients for coral growth.

 

I ran my tank skimmerless for many years but decided ~8 months ago to purchase a skimmer, based on recommendations from others on this site. I noticed an immediate improvement in water clarity and I'm sure it hepled reduce the creation of disolved organics in the water column but I eventually removed the skimmer as my corals (all softies) were obviously suffering.

 

However if I had an SPS dominated tank I would definitely use a skimmer, although I imagine I would probably need to perform supplemental feeding with Phyto etc 'Not sure about this as I have never kept SPS corals'

[Uhuru]

you don't have to supplement with phyto but you need to feed them something, even just feeding the fish well tends to feed the corals well, and with a good skimmer you can do that without polluting the tank (must have good observational and husbandry skills of course)

[Sea Slug]

Ok...........after reading this entire thread , I figured what the hell I'll join the fight , IMO Eric B is NOT the be all and end all in this hobby ( to say the least ) second I've seen ( as have most of you ) all different types of setups that are thriving , I run three tanks with skimmers and one with out , two with filter systems two with out , my point is there is more than one way to keep a successfull Reef/FO/FOWLR tank , and as far as saying your way is best ? Blah Blah Blah..........Bounce Ideas off of others if your having problems , if not.....don't fix whats not broken period . Oh and last but not least IMO Eric B and his opions hold no wieght at all , but hey , that's just me .

[Sea Slug]

Oh and this just in , go to the link on page 1 or 2 , and you will see that very nice tank loaded with SPS , does have a skimmer , just click through the pictures of the setup .

[sihaya]

Borneman is not a scientist... at least not as of this stage in his "career." Mr Anderson here has it right. The entire study is quite amateurish and will likely never be completed anyway (after all, aren't we all still waiting on the "salt study" results?).

 

If you want the perspective of a *real* scientist (one specializing in protein foam fractionation), please see here:

http://www.asira.org/proteinskimmers

[Uhuru]

you mean marko's reef? he used to run a skimmer but not anymore. he has a build thread over on the zeovit forum. look at his nano tanks.

 

IMO though he is an exception to the rule, most people cannot pull off those kinds of colors on SPS without a skimmer. I think he is just very talented and the question is how much time do you think he spends on his tank to keep it like that?

[Sea Slug]

you mean marko's reef? he used to run a skimmer but not anymore. he has a build thread over on the zeovit forum. look at his nano tanks.

That's fine....point is that at one point he did use one ! Zeovit is a whole different subject , again..... it's clear that what ever he is doing is working for him ( Congrats ) . One again proving my point that there are many ways to do this with great success . And as far as " The Propagator " I've seen his setups posted here also , I'd say he knows what he's doing , I it doesn't matter if he is 10 or 110 years old , he has it down .

[benzou]

Does Zeovit actually do anything? I gave their system a read over, and it seemed to be just the normal advice everyone follows with a bunch of added crap.

 

2 of the main parts are heavy use of protien skimmer + activated carbon.

 

Trace element dosing and other common sense things are also included.

 

When you're doing that, how do you even tell if it's the Zeolite material doing anything? It seems to me that you'd probably be just as well off with some high porosity media. Seachem denitrate comes to mind as a substitute. I've used that stuff pretty successfully to reduce nitrates.

[MrAnderson]

Does Zeovit actually do anything? I gave their system a read over, and it seemed to be just the normal advice everyone follows with a bunch of added crap.

 

2 of the main parts are heavy use of protien skimmer + activated carbon.

 

Trace element dosing and other common sense things are also included.

 

When you're doing that, how do you even tell if it's the Zeolite material doing anything? It seems to me that you'd probably be just as well off with some high porosity media. Seachem denitrate comes to mind as a substitute. I've used that stuff pretty successfully to reduce nitrates.

 

Zeovit isn't a chemical-based filtration method as you described. it's a bacterial dosing system, probably using facultative anaerobic denitrifiers like Pseudomonas stutzeri or aerobic denitrifiers like Alcaligenes faecalis. the zeolites are a form of colonization substrate.

[Uhuru]

benzou how did you extrapolate that from reading over the system? LOL you left out the most important part!

That's fine....point is that at one point he did use one ! Zeovit is a whole different subject , again..... it's clear that what ever he is doing is working for him ( Congrats ) . One again proving my point that there are many ways to do this with great success .

AGREED!

[The Propagator]

Zeovit isn't a chemical-based filtration method as you described. it's a bacterial dosing system, probably using facultative anaerobic denitrifiers like Pseudomonas stutzeri or aerobic denitrifiers like Alcaligenes faecalis. the zeolites are a form of colonization substrate.

 

 

Oh GOD don't tell me its another "Right NOW!" bacteria quick cycler / enables you to keep 50,000 fully grown tuna in a 1-- gallon tank kinda deals.

 

Remember Snake and Skylab ?

[spanko]

Don't want to miss any of the discussion so tagged.

[sihaya]

Oh GOD don't tell me its another "Right NOW!" bacteria quick cycler / enables you to keep 50,000 fully grown tuna in a 1-- gallon tank kinda deals.

 

Remember Snake and Skylab ?

 

LOL... you don't know how many times I've tried to explain to people how/why you can't just poor bacteria into your tanks to increase your bacteria populations and biological filtration. Bacteria have very short life spans. You could pour gallons of this junk in you systems, but if they don't have anywhere to live/reproduce or anything to live off of, they'll just die in a few days (assuming they're even still alive when you get them).

[Uhuru]

People have been dosing vodka and sugar to increase the bacteria population in there reef tanks for a long time, especially in europe. Zeovit is a very refined form of this method with additional factors. Concerning the life span of bacteria that's why you have to dose an alcohol based solution to your tank 2x's a day. Some people use a dosing pump so it's even more consistent. The people who developed this system are masters in reef keeping I suggest you go to their website and look at their tanks.

 

http://www.korallen-zucht.de/de/galerie/ku...cken/index.html

[sihaya]

Yes, I have read quite a bit about Zeovit and understand the theories/ideas. But I wasn't necessarily referring to any Zeovit product. I was referring to the "bacteria supplements"--the bacteria in a bottle, products. I do understand that the Zeovit method is much more involved than just dumping bottled bacteria in one's systems.

[The Propagator]

Yeah but thats why they use those nifty "Torpedo" canister filters full of "special" carbon.

its a MIRACLE ELIXIR ! Seaworld uses it !!

 

NOT !!!!

 

You know he is on Ebay now pawning that chit right?

Disgusting.

 

Remember the 5.5 gallon tank with a baby lion, baby blue hip tang, clown, and fire fish in it?

Think about what $$ how many stupid Ebayers who don't frequent forums are gonna lose in live stock

from listening to that wacko.

[sihaya]

Hey, I'm just trying to be diplomatic here...

[supernip]

fight? oh sh-

[The Propagator]

Hey, I'm just trying to be diplomatic here...

 

I'm talk'n bout' Right now! bacteria and TD..what ever carbon.

[benzou]

People have been dosing vodka and sugar to increase the bacteria population in there reef tanks for a long time, especially in europe. Zeovit is a very refined form of this method with additional factors. Concerning the life span of bacteria that's why you have to dose an alcohol based solution to your tank 2x's a day. Some people use a dosing pump so it's even more consistent. The people who developed this system are masters in reef keeping I suggest you go to their website and look at their tanks.

 

http://www.korallen-zucht.de/de/galerie/ku...cken/index.html

 

This is kind of my point. There doesn't seem to be much in the Zeovit system that can't be achieved without it.

 

If we look at each of the individual pieces, they're all widely known and discussed things. The bacteria dosing and growth can be achieved through vodka/sugar.

 

The thing that I don't like about the system is that they make it seem so proprietary (don't use anyone's zeolites but ours!) and then slap a huge price tag on it.

 

You can make an argument that they're selling their expertise, but there are a lot of experts who post pretty good information on the internet for free.

[Uhuru]

Yes, what you are paying for is the fact that someone else has figured out the dosages for you, put together the proper food and elements to fine tune coloration, and gives support for the use of the product. The results speak for themselves, not anyone can replicate those results though it's true a very skilled reefer certainly could on their own. The cost is not as bad as people seem to think, actually once the system is established I think it's insignificant. Just a few drops a day and that's it. You could go out and put together your own cocktail and you'll probably save less than $100 a year with uncertain results. As for the zeolites, not any zeolites will work.

You can make an argument that they're selling their expertise, but there are a lot of experts who post pretty good information on the internet for free.

The problem here is everyone has their "free" advice and there are a lot of self proclaimed experts on the internet. With zeovit you're talking about one cohesive philosophy on reefkeeping which encompasses EVERYTHING from food, exact water parameters, filtration and lighting. And because of this, it is able to improve upon itself rather than going in circles as is often the case with the internet experts.

[acidbaby]

Okay so you have 15 years of time to come up with your opinions on why things work and what works for you. Thats fine and you probably have a wealth of good knowledge but its still doesn't make them scientific fact.

First off most reef are not close to the shorlines, many are miles off shore, think of 90% of the reefs in australia and around the world. The vast majority of the great barrier reef is miles off shore. Think of most of the fiji island they are coral reefs that formed over millions of years out in the middle of the bumm #### no where. By you saying ALL of our reefs are close to shore you truely prove you have no idea what you are talking about.

 

Also by your logic: Reefs are in the ocean, right? Penguins live in the ocean, right? So penguins live on reefs, right? NOOOOOOO!!!

Really, how much are you asking?

 

Most reefs are fairly close to shoreline. http://reefgis.reefbase.org/

Doubt Bournemann's in a lab. While I do enjoy and gain insight from his "research" it is hardly ever conclusive. While I do appreciate his efforts, nobody is paying for his studies, so he must abandon them to get back to work.

My squeeze is working on her masters at HBOI. Now that's a great resource I get to tap from time to time. The single most agreed upon fact is that reef building stony corals thrive in the most nutrient free environments. Some evolutionists believe this is not a mistake, that the zooxanthellae algae is an evolutionary step in preserving the viability of an otherwise carnivorous animal.

 

We are all tools, especially Bourneman. We will not get any definitive answer on these questions until (if) aquaculture becomes a serious project for environmental stability. All you'll ever get to see is the prevalence of disease-causing organisms such as vibrio or mercury in consumable aquaculture products. Nobody is ever going to give a s##t about the hobbyist industry except where it has negative impact on naturally occurring reefs. Studies take billions over years of time. This money goes to looking for medicine and other valuable consumer resources. That's why HBOI Wood's Hole and other institutes get money to operate ships. The government and the pharms PAY MONEY to send graduate students and heavy machinery operators to sea. AND to top it all off, when the money comes from the pharms, guess where the data goes? TO THE PHARMS! You'll never get to see it except 50-100 years from now when the patents on the projects they will start in 20-50 years run out. It's proprietary and often goes to the highest bidder.

 

So there. It's like pouring billions into model train research and sampling beer can collections. I'd like to see "Billy Beer" run through a GC/MS

[SPS20]

My squeeze is working on her masters at HBOI. Now that's a great resource I get to tap from time to time.

 

Ok, please tell me i'm not the only perv who laughed when they read this.

[acidbaby]

I almost edited it, actually I did edit a little bit, but I had to leave that there.