TJ_Burton Returns - last pics...

[TJ_Burton]

Ok, here is the tale of my pink digi:

 

I got it at a store (not online). It was under 250W 20k lights, in a deep tank all the way at the bottom in the store. I think it was a 90 gallon tank, i'm not sure.

 

At the time, my system only had one 150w 20k Coralife bulb for lighting, set dead center over my tank. So, I put the pink digi in the tank, low and to the left, and it was fine. A month or so later, I added a second MH pendant, identical to the first, and changed both bulbs to 10k bulbs. Each pendant was centered over a point 1/3 of the tank length from either end, if you know what I mean. Needless to say, this was a dramatic increase in PAR for the whole tank, and that was my intention. I wanted monster SPS growth. Now, these lights are pendants, and thus adjustable in height, so I had raised them as high as I could over the tank to help acclimate things. All my corals took well to the change except my digi. Within two days, it had bleached bone white and all the branch tips had died. When I noticed this (yes, I should have been more cautious and observant, but I haven't ever kept a tank this shallow before) I immediately crammed the coral all the way into a corner, in the dimmest spot in the tank. There the coral remained for a couple of months, pretty much ignored. A couple of times I even contemplated foisting it upon the LFS for their frag tank. I thought it was a lost cause.

 

In these pictures, taken maybe a month or two after burning the coral, (one was intended to be a pic of the crab, not the coral) you can see the branches of the coral are pretty close to bone white. By this point the coral had only just begun to regain the slightest hint of a tan color. You can also see the dead tips in one of them.

 

 

Over the subsequent weeks, it slowly went from white to light tan to dirt brown to pinkish brown to bright pink to pink with purplish highlights. Here is a fairly recent photo that shows what it looks like now:

 

 

So basically, this coral has been through some serious lighting changes, analogous to what yours has been through. It never ceases to amaze me that some corals can come back to full health from the brink of death like that.

 

I really feel that keeping bright colors in most SPS is simply a matter of gently introducing the coral to as much light as you can throw at it, but not all at once. I once saw a colony of millepora growing less than 2 feet directly under a 1000w 6500k bulb. Ever since that day, I have been convinced that you just can't even come close to reprocing in captivity the amount of light that a shallow reef gets in the wild. For some species of corals (shallow water SPS) you just can't overilluminate them, IMO, provided you acclimate them carefully.

 

It should be noted that my pink digi is now about a foot directly under a halide, smack in the hot spot, and it looks happy as can be.

 

- Josh

 

Very nice!

That is a perfect example of what I am talking about, corals want to live. That is now a great looking piece, and I am very glad that you decided not to give up on it.

 

After look at that "pink" digitata, I think that the purple my friend gave me is actually that same pink you have. I do remember seeing the mother colony in his tank, and his was very similar color to yours (provided the photos are accurate). My old purple digitata was a very dark purple, I guess you could say 'grape' colored. Can't wait to see this cute little frag recover. I think I am going to mount it to a plug.

 

P.s. hopefully that inspiring story will motivate others to hang on to their dying corals and try to fight it out!

[Apache]

from my question before..

 

The 40 will be a standard size breeder . i hope to go with no canopy and no hood. I will get a normal stand with a 20-30 gallon refugium.

 

i just want the sundail to start out with (almost 7 wats a gallon with the 314 watt) sorry i dont have many details , it is not set in stone.

 

for flow, i like stony corals , but will focus on zoos, shrooms, and clams

 

thanks for any help.

[TJ_Burton]

from my question before..

 

The 40 will be a standard size breeder . i hope to go with no canopy and no hood. I will get a normal stand with a 20-30 gallon refugium.

 

i just want the sundail to start out with (almost 7 wats a gallon with the 314 watt) sorry i dont have many details , it is not set in stone.

 

for flow, i like stony corals , but will focus on zoos, shrooms, and clams

 

thanks for any help.

 

For the record, never, and I mean never refer to the "watts per gallon" rating. It is wholly unreliable and in a lot of cases inaccurate. For a good idea of how lighting works read THIS article. It is a little long but will help you understand the concept of lighting in a reef aquarium.

 

Your lighting will be pretty good to start off. You would be able to keep sps and clams directly under the light, and lower light demanding corals like zoas, palys, euphyllias, etc. closely around perimeter of the halide. (you will understand more after reading that article, as one halide will leave both corners of the tank very dull).

 

For flow I certainly recommend a return pump around 1000gph. The Quiet One 4000HH is a good pump for this. You may also/most likely will require extra flow, at least for the sps. Koralia or Tunze powerheads are great for this. Maxijet 1200's have a mod to make them more efficient and run similarly to the Koralia/Tunze.

Spend the extra cash on a GOOD skimmer (if you don't choose to go skimmerless which I don't recommend). Euroreef RS100 is a great skimmer from what I hear. I personally went with the Octopus model which is quite a bit larger, but I won't recommend it until I have tried it out myself.

 

Dedicate a good chunk of your sump to act as a refugium. I personally like DSB of 4" or so, and a lot of rock rubble in my fuge. I also use a variety of macro algae and caulerpa for nutrient export. Whatever algae grows down there, hair or otherwise gets left to alone.

 

When you have a sketch or outline of a design, feel free to create your own thread and PM me so I can give you some feed back!

 

Hope this helps!

[Apache]

sorry for asking so many questions on your thread

 

I am 14 so i am looking for "cheap quality".

 

do u have any suggestions where i can find good lights.

 

maybe i can have a quality T-5 pendant and 2 hqi pendants on either side. I could keep the stony coral and clams on the 2 sides and the soft coral in the middle??.

 

btw Thanks for the link.

[bdare]

Check Hellolights.com for Halide and Reefgeek for T5.

[stoney waters]

Hey TJ.

 

Here I go busting up your thread again. I just had some concerns about the drain to the sump and thought I would address them before you started drilling.

 

I think it is great that you are going to put a valve on the drain line most people overlook the importance of this. It is the drilled return in the sump that has me concerned. It is good to have the drain submerged in the sump a little to reduce noise and splashing but if it is submerged too much it will create back pressure and cause the return to "Burp" and the level in the overflow to fluctuate or "Flush". Both should be avoided.

You would not be able to adjust a drilled return,and it would be hard to figure the right balance before you drilled.

I would recommend dropping the return into the sump from the top. Use threaded fittings for disassembly and don't worry about the weight even with the valve.

 

Just some suggestions.

Stone.

[TJ_Burton]

Hey TJ.

 

Here I go busting up your thread again. I just had some concerns about the drain to the sump and thought I would address them before you started drilling.

 

I think it is great that you are going to put a valve on the drain line most people overlook the importance of this. It is the drilled return in the sump that has me concerned. It is good to have the drain submerged in the sump a little to reduce noise and splashing but if it is submerged too much it will create back pressure and cause the return to "Burp" and the level in the overflow to fluctuate or "Flush". Both should be avoided.

You would not be able to adjust a drilled return,and it would be hard to figure the right balance before you drilled.

I would recommend dropping the return into the sump from the top. Use threaded fittings for disassembly and don't worry about the weight even with the valve.

 

Just some suggestions.

Stone.

 

Always appreciated!

How far under the water is appropriate to avoid these issues? Is it possible to make sure the hole is drilled at the right hight, or is this something that will need adjusting regularly? I don't want the valve in the water if I can avoid it. and the weight does concern me a tad as gate valves are bulky. The only chamber in my sump that will lose water through evaporation is the final chamber. That means that the hight of the water in the skimmer chamber will always be at one hight, which (I figure) will aid in me being able to drill the sump at a specific hight to avoid the burp/back pressure.

 

If this is just really impractical I understand and will go with your suggestion. I could technically always cap off the hole if I needed to.

[stoney waters]

It is hard to tell the right level until every thing is up and running. I just bet you would not be satisfied. Why would the valve be in the water? You could attach the valve directly to the bottom of the bulkhead on the main tank and run PVC to the sump.

I have recently replaced my ball valve with a gate valve, I will see if I can get some pics up.

[TJ_Burton]

It is hard to tell the right level until every thing is up and running. I just bet you would not be satisfied. Why would the valve be in the water? You could attach the valve directly to the bottom of the bulkhead on the main tank and run PVC to the sump.

I have recently replaced my ball valve with a gate valve, I will see if I can get some pics up.

 

I would love to see some pics!

I will give your idea a shot first while I am running the system fresh, testing for leaks etc. If I don't like it I can always try my idea, if I don't like that, I can revert back. You certainly seem to know your stuff so I will try your suggestion out first.

 

Again, thanks a ton for the input!

[stoney waters]

Just personal experience, thats all

[SPS20]

The reason I suggested placing the valve low is to have a silent sump. It isn't neccessary to place the valve low for functionality, only to reduce noise and bubbles.

 

The reason you would want the end of the lower drain line submerged is to avoid splashdown noise. Since there is no air entering the pipe at the top due to the fact that the valve is restricting the flow and making the overflow box fill most of the way, no bubbles are enetering the plumbing at the bottom of the overflow box. Thus, no gurgling, and no need to provide a way for air to noiselessly escape. When you first start it up, there will be some gurgling, but only until the air has been purged from the pipes.

 

If you place the valve high on the drain line, air may get trapped in the section of plumbing after the valve, and get released into the tank slowly in the form of microbubbles, as the water rushing down that section of pipe will act like a downdraft skimmer of sorts. (at slower flow rates, this might not happen) Of course, eventually the air would be purged from that section of plumbing, but it would be annoying to have that happen every time you start it up. Placing the valve low avoids these issues, since the plumbing above the valve will fill with water from the bottom-up, and bubbles will push their way up and out into the overflow rather easily. Since the top of the drain line and the bottom are both always submerged, air can never get into the line, thus, it is totally silent. No bubbles, no gurgles, once it is up and running. That is why I suggested submerging the bottom end of the drain line. Yes, it would be bubbly and gurgly for a minute or so when you start it up, but once the air works its way out of the lines, silence.

 

EDIT: I want to just remind you that the design I proposed is not one I have personally tested, but I have thought it out, and I really think it would work to create a tank with no water noise in the overflow, the plumbing or the sump. The only sound you would hear is that of your pumps and fans. I have seen similar plumbing schemes in action, (which inspired this one) and am not sure if they worked exactly this way, but utilized the same basic principle.

[c est ma]

I find it fascinating how corals regulate their colors/pigments/zooanthellae depending on their light source. I think its amazing that a coral can bleach out, and come back as some variant of its original color to cope with a new source of light. I didn't worry too much when I noticed the Montipora palawanensis because I knew it would just pop back as a different varient of it's previous color. When I first started out, I would have been quite worried when this started, but by now I have realized corals are a little bit hardier then we give them credit for. Corals want to live! We sometimes act like corals are trying to commit suicide in our systems, and that we have to force them to stay alive with supreme conditions. I now understand that corals are struggling to live, and if we do our research, and set up a system that tailors to their needs, our corals will be just fine, even through the little bumps and bruises along the way.

 

Anyways, back to work for me

 

Going back a little...because your thread moves so fast!...just wanted to thank you for that nice bit of philosophy. These things are important to reflect on now and then.

 

Plus, thought it was time for this lurker to check in. Been following all along but mostly just hoping some of the high-level engineering will sink in...

 

--Diane

[bdare]

I've had great personal experience having the drain enter the sump at a 90 degee elbow halfway submurged at the water level. This serves 2 purposes. First, because of the 90 degree turn the water is "slowed down" if you will as it enters the water. Thus, less water is pushed down and the bubbles can more easily reach the surface. Second, with the drain pipe half submurged, there is no splashing sound as the water enters the sump and any air trapped in the pipe is able to freely escape through the top half of the elbow.

 

Marc from Melev's reef recently posted a picture of this in a forum somewhere, but I haven't been able to find it. This is also how my current sump is set up and I'm very happy with it.

[TJ_Burton]

The reason I suggested placing the valve low is to have a silent sump. It isn't neccessary to place the valve low for functionality, only to reduce noise and bubbles.

 

The reason you would want the end of the lower drain line submerged is to avoid splashdown noise. Since there is no air entering the pipe at the top due to the fact that the valve is restricting the flow and making the overflow box fill most of the way, no bubbles are enetering the plumbing at the bottom of the overflow box. Thus, no gurgling, and no need to provide a way for air to noiselessly escape. When you first start it up, there will be some gurgling, but only until the air has been purged from the pipes.

 

If you place the valve high on the drain line, air may get trapped in the section of plumbing after the valve, and get released into the tank slowly in the form of microbubbles, as the water rushing down that section of pipe will act like a downdraft skimmer of sorts. (at slower flow rates, this might not happen) Of course, eventually the air would be purged from that section of plumbing, but it would be annoying to have that happen every time you start it up. Placing the valve low avoids these issues, since the plumbing above the valve will fill with water from the bottom-up, and bubbles will push their way up and out into the overflow rather easily. Since the top of the drain line and the bottom are both always submerged, air can never get into the line, thus, it is totally silent. No bubbles, no gurgles, once it is up and running. That is why I suggested submerging the bottom end of the drain line. Yes, it would be bubbly and gurgly for a minute or so when you start it up, but once the air works its way out of the lines, silence.

 

EDIT: I want to just remind you that the design I proposed is not one I have personally tested, but I have thought it out, and I really think it would work to create a tank with no water noise in the overflow, the plumbing or the sump. The only sound you would hear is that of your pumps and fans. I have seen similar plumbing schemes in action, (which inspired this one) and am not sure if they worked exactly this way, but utilized the same basic principle.

 

Ok, from what I am hearing I basically am going to have to give this idea a shot to see if it works in practice. I don't at all doubt your theory and would love to give it a try, as I said, if it isn't working out for me I can alway cap the hole and try Stoney's way of doing it. The question I have is how far under the water should I drill the hole?

 

Going back a little...because your thread moves so fast!...just wanted to thank you for that nice bit of philosophy. These things are important to reflect on now and then.

 

Plus, thought it was time for this lurker to check in. Been following all along but mostly just hoping some of the high-level engineering will sink in...

 

--Diane

 

Any time

I sometimes like to spew out little bits of food for thought. If you ever have any questions on anything regarding my setup or yours feel free to post here or PM me! Like I was saying before, I am really glad that people are finding this thread useful. It is great to know that it can be used for more then just a build log and history for the tank, but also as a reference for people to use for their own setups.

 

 

I've had great personal experience having the drain enter the sump at a 90 degee elbow halfway submurged at the water level. This serves 2 purposes. First, because of the 90 degree turn the water is "slowed down" if you will as it enters the water. Thus, less water is pushed down and the bubbles can more easily reach the surface. Second, with the drain pipe half submurged, there is no splashing sound as the water enters the sump and any air trapped in the pipe is able to freely escape through the top half of the elbow.

 

Marc from Melev's reef recently posted a picture of this in a forum somewhere, but I haven't been able to find it. This is also how my current sump is set up and I'm very happy with it.

 

Thanks for the input! What sort of GPH are you pushing through what sized 90?

This whole silent drain is becomming more complicated as theories contest one another. I am guessing the only way for me to figure out what works best is to try them all out. Luckily for me I like threaded fittings, tubing, and clamps, so I won't get stuck with any wasted money in hard plumbed fittings I can no longer use.

[bdare]

I'm using an Eheim 1262 for my return. It is throttled back a lil bit. The drain is 1".

 

By the way... I agree that submurging the drain too deep will create "burps". I had the same problem only submurging the drain 4".

[TJ_Burton]

Ok, so let me get this straight.

 

Josh & Stoney,

 

The first uploaded diagram, how do you feel about this? I don't think I am too worried about the weight anymore, so let’s skip all the 90s I had on there before and run it straight down. How does this setup look to you?

 

Bdare,

 

The second uploaded pic is what I interpreted from your description, is this accurate?

[bdare]

You got it!

 

Keep in mind as well... the less vertical drop the better. If you can angle it this would also help.

[TJ_Burton]

You got it!

 

Man, your responding quite quickly today!

Question, do you not find the water rushing across the surface to make much noise? I personally have not tried this method before so I have no idea what to expect. By looking at it I assume the water falling straight down to a 90, then running accross the surface, would cause somewhat of a river effect. Also, if the drain hit a 45, then another 45 6" after, would that not ease the water into the sump a little bit better? this way the water would be following the pipe (like a waterslide) instead of just crashing at the bottom.

[bdare]

I think that would definitely help. Like I said... anything you can do to reduce the vertical drop is a big help. Really there is no rushing sound with this setup. I did however turn the drain into a corner. This just helped reduce the turbulence because the water from my drain and the skimmer exit were hitting in the same spot.

 

In my last tank, my drain was coming from an external overflow box and it was all soft tubing. The line had a drop at the beginning but then entered the sump at an angle creating the water slide effect you mentioned above. It also worked VERY well. If you can incorporate that effect it would be very useful..

 

Here's a picture of my old sump. It was a wet/dry I converted... I think you can see the angle I'm talking about. It was also very quiet.

http://www.nano-reef.com/gallery/showphoto...mp;ppuser=19152

 

 

Ben

[SPS20]

IMO, there is no reason to make the bottom end of the pipe be out of the water, halfway or at all. The reason bdare's system gurgled when he had the end submerged, is that the way his system is plumbed allows air to get into the top of the drain line in the first place. That won't be happening with yours, since you will be creating backpressure to keep the water level in the overflow box fairly high. Why would you need to provide a way for air to escape when no air is entering the pipe in the first place?

 

Once again, the way I proposed would work, i believe, and be silent, but it does require certain thing to remain silent. Among those things is keeping the lower end of the pipe submerged.

 

I think I need to do a drawing or something, maybe i'm not really making myself clear. Its kind of a pain to verbally describe stuff like this when a simple picture would make it all so clear. (Also, it would neatly expose any flaws in the plan)

 

I have a scanner here at my desk. I am going to make a drawing on my lunch break and scan it and post it. I could make a mock-up like you did, but frankly, it would take forever since I am no whiz with drawing software. I'll stick to pen and paper for now.

- Josh

[bdare]

How air gets into your drain pipe depends on the kind of drain pipe you have. I run a durso standpipe. If you run a durso or a stockman the way to keep the overflow silent is to drill a hole to let air in. It's a controlled amount... but there is air none the less. I'm not sure how you can keep the overflow quiet without utilizing one of these methods.

[SPS20]

Ok, once you are done laughing at my artistic skills, take a look at this diagram. A napkin died so that I might explain myself better.

 

 

Now, look at the water level in the overflow box. It is kept just below the auxilliary drain, near the top of the tank, by adjusting the valve. There is no standpipe or anything, just some kind of screen or mesh or something to keep suicidal snails from clogging the valve.

 

Because the top of the drain isn't in contact with air (nor is the closed loop, which is one reason for using this system) and the bottom of the drain tube is submerged, there is just no need to give the air a way to escape, except when you first start up the system, and that will pretty much take care of itself after a minute or two of gurgly running.

 

Since the bottom of the drain line is submerged, no splashdown, no bubbles. No air in, no air out. Simple.

 

I think I just managed to say in one little napkin drawing what I spent almost a page describing above, LOL.

 

I hope this helps.

 

- Josh

[bdare]

Hey Josh,

 

The only problem I see with that is you are setting the speed at which water enters the sump with a valve rather than your return pump. I'd think you could run into problems if you either have the valve too far open or too far closed. To far closed and your tank will overflow. To far open and eventually the overflow box will drain and you'll hear the gurgle.

 

With the auxilary drain... you will still have air getting to the sump to create noise and bubbles. Also, why wouldn't you want debris from your tank getting to your sump? I'd think you'd want it down there so you could export it from the system...

 

Ben

[SPS20]

Hey Josh,

 

The only problem I see with that is you are setting the speed at which water enters the sump with a valve rather than your return pump. I'd think you could run into problems if you either have the valve too far open or too far closed. To far closed and your tank will overflow. To far open and eventually the overflow box will drain and you'll hear the gurgle.

 

With the auxilary drain... you will still have air getting to the sump to create noise and bubbles. Also, why wouldn't you want debris from your tank getting to your sump? I'd think you'd want it down there so you could export it from the system...

 

Ben

 

I have seen setups sort of like this in action before. What happens in practice is that the overflow box reaches an equilibrium such that you can maintain a constant water level in the overflow box. Yes, you do have to adjust the valve at first, such that water almost (but not quite) runs down the aux drain. The aux drain is only there in case there is a clog in the primary drain, it isn't meant to actually carry water most of the time, just to prevent a disaster. Yes, if the aux drain kicked in, everything would become noisy again, but at least his floors are safe. The aux drain runs its own, completely separate path to the sump.

 

The screen/mesh should just be there to prevent big things like fish and snails and stuff from getting down there, it isn't meant to stop any of the smaller stuff like detritus and algae and stuff.. The only reason I mentioned it is because I can imagine a big fat trochus snaill riding over the overflow and getting jammed in the plumbing, which would be a PITA to get out.

 

- Josh

[TJ_Burton]

Josh, I understand the concept pretty well now that you have drawn it on a napkin! Finding the sweet spot with a ball valve would be hell, so I udnerstand the need for a gate valve. Regardless this setup would take some tinkering to calibrate. The Aux line is mandatory for this type of setup, and I actually would recommend that line for normal overflows if there ever is a chance of clogging.

 

I don't know if I want to try that out, but at the same time I am curious as to how difficult it would be to find the harmony between the pump and the drain. If I decide to add that Aux line, I will give this method a try during the fresh run. If not, I am going to go with Bdare/Stoney's method.

 

I will let you know when I get to that stage.