I think I murdered my Live rock :(

[clifford513]

Are you making fun of me and my koi pond? I bet your eating fries too

[holdorf333]

turducken?

[MrAnderson]

Are you making fun of me and my koi pond? I bet your eating fries too

 

you have a koi pond? i didn't know that, i have one too. you shut it down for the winter?

 

edit: mmm turducken parmigiana!!

[clifford513]

No, I just make sure to keep the pump cleaned. It freezes over except around the small waterfall.

[supreme_spork]

Your sarcasm is pointless. Noone asked him to keep science out of it. What a waste of bandwidth.

 

whoa there little fella -- i was looping back to the earlier reeftard conversation, not referencing anyone in this thread *at all*, and there wasn't anyone i was trying to smack down. apparently my attempts at camaraderie failed miserably.

 

as for wasting bandwidth -- erm, isn't that what the internet is all about?

[holdorf333]

[clifford513]

whoa there little fella -- i was looping back to the earlier reeftard conversation, not referencing anyone in this thread *at all*, and for there wasn't anyone i was trying to smack down. apparently my attempts at camaraderie failed miserably. as for wasting bandwidth -- erm, isn't that what the internet is all about?

Ahh, I see. Disregard and carry on

So that is the way they do it!Everyone is eating fries tonight

[Chutsk10]

How does one thread get so . . . off topic.

 

Oh well, I am done reading my own thread.

[MrAnderson]

you don't like turducken?

[holdorf333]

...with Thanksgiving around the corner...

[ab420]

FWIW:

 

I used Instant Ocean for about a year - only mixed it up for about 10 minutes every water change, NEVER had a single problem as a result.

 

I now use Red Sea salt, same thing.

[clifford513]

^Thanks for saving this thread

[Mr. Fosi]

Back on off topic.

 

lgreen: I am not making this conclusion with only my O2 evidence, I am making this conclusion based on what I learned in my chemical oceanography class last semester and my undergraduate experience in limnology. Last semester, we spent three weeks (and half an exam) on ocean gas exchange with a focus on CO2 because the prof is a big global warming evangelical. Of course, this is only one graduate-level class, but you can tack on my undergrad limnology and FW ecology courses if you like. I supplied the O2 graph so people could conceptualize what gas equilibration looks like when you add salt to RO water.

 

Plus, you don't have to believe me. I'm providing this info (instead of studying for tomorrow's physical oceanography exam) because I want people to know what real science has to say about this topic. If people want to argue that it takes 24h for artificial seawater to equilibrate pH, they must pony up more than anecdotal evidence and company recommendations.

 

Did you try the experiment on the leftover "salt"?

 

holdorf: You are correct, CO2 concentrations will have a direct, positive relationship with O2 concentrations under normal temperature and pressure. The reason CO2 takes longer to equilibrate is twofold: 1) it is a higher molecular weight by almost 50% and 2) CO2 reacts with water, unlike O2. Some of the CO2 will become H2CO3, some HCO3- and the rest will be CO32-. However, at the pH of seawater (~8.0-8.2), most of the dissolved inorganic carbon (DIC) is in the for HCO3- with H2CO3 and CO32- coming in a distant second and third.

 

Here is the first slide from our first CO2 lecture. This is a phase diagram of dissolved inorganic carbon (CO2) in water for a range of pHs.

 

[lgreen]

Ok, so now it has become "I know because I took a few undergrad and grad classes in marine/freshwater and oceanographic science".

 

One liter of each of the synthetic sea salts was made by dissolving an appropriate amount of the sea salt in deionized water (DI) and adjusting the salinity to 33 ppt that matched that of Catalina Seawater. The pH was not adjusted for any solution but was measured after each solution was made up and again after 24 h, just prior to the commencement of the test.

-http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2005/3/aafeature/ (Timothy A. Hovanec, Ph.D, et al.) (Hey look he has a Ph.d, probably has more experience than you.)

 

Furthermore, the DI water should be aerated for 24 hours prior to adding the salt mix and that mixture should be blended for an additional 24 hours before any testing is done.

http://www.wetwebmedia.com/ca/volume_4/V4I3/Salt/salt.htm (Steven Pro) (Not to mention pretty much every expert on wetwebmedia.com is recommending 24 hour mixing and several of them have masters degrees and way more experience than you or I in this hobby.)

 

Again, the problem is you are assuming we live in this magical world in which everything happens the same in our home aquariums as it does in the ocean, your textbook theories, and as observed in your lab studies. How do you explain things such as numerous people noticing major spikes in pH upon initial mixing of their saltwater and not having the pH equilibrate for several hours after mixing the salt? I don't think you have the experience, and you surely have not provided me sufficient evidence to override what advice is being consistently given out by experts and hobbiests all over the world. Yet you expect the average reefer just to take your word for it because you've provided some graphs that fail to paint the overall big picture and because you've taken some classes.

 

Instant Ocean has been researching synthetic salt for over 50 years. The company started as a scientist trying to figure out how to make a consistent synthetic sea salt. If they say it needs to be mixed for 24 hours then I'd imagine they have a pretty good reason behind it. They don't gain anything financially or sell more salt just because they give that advise. More likely they have taken the time to study how their salt mixes under a variety of conditions and have found that recommending 24 hours is going to give everyone who uses their salt the most consistent results from on tank to the next.

 

Really that's what it comes to. It is about giving consistent advise. Telling people to mix their salt for 24 hours should give everyone the same results. If we tell everyone it is ok to toss your saltwater in right away after mixing it, yeah it might work fine for some, but what about that person who's salwater mixes up to a pH of 9.0? What if they do a 50% water change and shock the hell out of everything?

 

And this is what ticks me off about marine biologists giving advise in this hobby.

 

Anyway...I've got to go marine ecology lecture I'll finish my thought after class.

[Mr. Fosi]

It hasn't "become" anything. You asked if I was using only my real-world data to back up my reasoning and the answer is 'no'. Your snarky tone is a little out of place and, again, you are digging up quotes of PhD's but I don't see any reasoning. Statements without reason is conjecture.

 

Please don't try to refute what I say based on the power of my reputation or the letters after my name. I brought up my class experience because it supports my laboratory and hobby experience not to prove that I am the smartest guy in the room. Evaluate what I say based on the strength of the data and reasoning.

 

I am not assuming anything about a "magical world" and what I have presented are a little more than "text book theories". It is a little disappointing that you are trying to belittle what I have presented instead of presenting counter reasoning.

 

How do you explain things such as numerous people noticing major spikes in pH upon initial mixing of their saltwater and not having the pH equilibrate for several hours after mixing the salt?

 

You have such data? I'd like to see it. If it is just anecdotal stories then it really doesn't mean anything.

 

Telling people to mix their salt for 24 hours should give everyone the same results. If we tell everyone it is ok to toss your saltwater in right away after mixing it, yeah it might work fine for some, but what about that person who's salwater mixes up to a pH of 9.0?

 

No one said that your advice was bad, I just said you have no backup other than what "experts" have told you. You can go on that advice if you wish and I am sure that your tanks will do fine. What I have done is provide data and supporting reasoning showing why my point is valid.

 

I have also not advocated "tossing" water in "right away" after mixing it. What I have said is that it is not necessary to have your water mix for 24h before using it. I have shown you data that indicates that oxygen, which behaves similarly to other gasses, equilibrates very quickly after salt addition/dissolution. I have also stated that my water sits in the mix bucket (with a running powerhead) for at least 20 min. I am sorry if what I irritates you but I believe that it is important to let science inform how people in our hobby do things.

 

If you want to refute my assertions, you really need to do it with data and reasoning not with "I believe it because a PhD told me so."

 

Additionally, I don't understand why arguments get emotional when people present data and reasoning to support their arguments. Does it really need to be such a problem for data to refute conventional wisdom? I would think that, in this segment of the hobby, a person shouldn't be pilloried for presenting real data and backup reasoning.

 

Next we'll have an argument about why denitrification doesn't happen in nanos.

 

EDIT: I haven't slammed you not knowing that it was CaCO3 and not salt in the bottom of your bucket.

[clifford513]

How many koi in your pond, Mr. A? I have 2 and one comet. All 3 have been inhabitants for 14 years. I had 2 more huge koi that were stressed to death by a 14" blue catfish my renters unwittingly tossed into the pond thinking it would be cool

[Izzue]

Read the Instructions...

 

Izzue

[MrAnderson]

sorry lgreen, but i think you're operating on some strange premises here.

 

first of all, you're evaluating the differing views based on who gives them, not the data itself. this is why science exists, so that data can be evaluated objectively without bias. by saying "so-and-so says to do this so it must be right" isn't objective; by definition it's a subjective evaluation. it's really better to believe your own eyes than trust what someone else is telling you you're seeing.

 

second of all, "one or two" undergrad or grad school classes is how people get their PhDs in the first place. just because they're not there yet doesn't make the knowledge being imparted void.

 

personally, i've meassured the pH of my own saltwater during mixing and found that it comes to correct pH in a few minutes (after dissolving), and i've added it soon after with no spike in overall pH of my tank or detrimental effect. polyp extension and other general indicators generally remain unchanged, occasionally i see an improvement depending on how bad the tank needed the wc to begin with. THAT is my opinion and experience. Mr. Fosi provided hard data to support that. In all, it's all consistent.

[bumoco]

Look another promising topic that has been taken off course by a couple of the same people who cant resist making sure everyone agrees with them.....Newsflash people, this is a HOBBY!!!!!! This is supposed to be FUN!!!!!

 

SO take another does of Ritilin, or whatever hyperactivity medication your doctor proscribes for you and stop making this hobby seem like a life choice or something that requires a doctorate to do. Here is the best tip a newbie could get.......Stop listening to everyone and just take it slow. There are more opinions than any person can handle, and we all know what they saw about opinions.....

 

People will always obsess and want the best, but obsessive compulsive behavior like this is not only counterproductive to the Forum process, but also just plain childish!!!!

 

Grow Up Kids, and stop trying to bully everyone into your mindset.

 

 

Rant over

[MrAnderson]

^that's the nastiest post in this thread. telling people to get their psych meds during a normal, moderately toned reef discussion is unwarranted. take your rant elsewhere.

 

bumoco's posting privileges suspended for 24 hrs.

[clifford513]

Uh! I was popping corn!

[Izzue]

bumoco's posting privileges suspended for 24 hrs.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Thats reefing for ya...

 

Reef On

Izzue

[MrAnderson]

note to all:

 

DISAGREEMENTS ARE COMMON AND HEARING DIFFERENCES OF OPINION AND RATIONALES CAN BE USEFUL TO ALL. PLEASE KEEP OUR BEGINNER'S SECTION CIVIL.

[lgreen]

Ok, so I can't provide any evidence that suggests there is anything wrong with adding your saltwater after immediately after it appears to be dissolved.

 

I still question it though, even if only based on anecdotal evidence.

 

I just don't understand why a majority of people would be recommending mixing saltwater for 24 hours with no science standing behind it. I'm not convinced some type of scientific evidence doesn't exist, I just haven't found it (or really tried that hard to find it, for that matter). But that is not to say that evidence couldn't be wrong.

 

Until I find evidence that is worth talking about, I'll keep my yapper shut. Apologies to Mr. Fosi, as I meant no disrespect w/ my comments and hope I didn't cross the boundary of making things personal.

 

Edit: I actually really did forget to take my "psych" meds this morning, so um, thanks for the reminder bumoco And ps...all the cool kids are taking adderal, not ritalin.

[MrAnderson]

I just don't understand why a majority of people would be recommending mixing saltwater for 24 hours with no science standing behind it. I'm not convinced some type of scientific evidence doesn't exist, I just haven't found it (or really tried that hard to find it, for that matter).

 

that's what i'm wondering as well. perhaps there very well may be a reason, but as far as i know, pH and gas equilibration are the only issues (assuming the salt is fully dissolved). if there's something i'm missing, i'd like to be enlightened as well.