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This LED lamp vs PC lamp


Plancton

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HecticDialectics

I'm gonna go with no. That light only has 250 lumens. The PC should have a -lot- more than that...

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strangelove

I vote for the LED from NanoCustoms, except I would use two LED fixtures to light your 6g Pico. LED light is extremly efficient and going by specs and compairing wattage doesn't work. IMO PC and MH on a Pico is overkill and your just looking for problems with heat gain. I've never seen a NanoCustoms LED fixture so I don't know what the light looks like, but seeing how Solaris LED fixtures work, I have to say that LED is the best way to go with smaller tanks. There is a thread on the DIY section were a guy built a 13 bulb LED mod for his 12g nano and he's reporting that there is plenty of light for his tank. I'm thinking that 6 LED's would be perfect for a 6g tank.

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eklikewhoa

So strangelove, you have seen the solaris work in person? I hear lots of complaints and people regretting their purchase.

 

Also 2x of those Led fixtures from NCustoms would put you almost at $200 which I would think you could pull of a MetalHalide fixture and a nice fan for that much.

 

Viewable light to the human eye is one thing and usable light to corals/plants is another.

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strangelove
So strangelove, you have seen the solaris work in person? I hear lots of complaints and people regretting their purchase.

 

Also 2x of those Led fixtures from NCustoms would put you almost at $200 which I would think you could pull of a MetalHalide fixture and a nice fan for that much.

 

Viewable light to the human eye is one thing and usable light to corals/plants is another.

 

Yep, wouldn't trade my Solaris for any MH fixture, even if new MH technology made them cheaper, faster and able to leap a tall building in a single bound. Until you live with LED light you have no clue as to what your missing. By the way this is what my tank looks like and my SPS corals are digging it too.

 

TANK.jpg

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HecticDialectics
I vote for the LED from NanoCustoms, except I would use two LED fixtures to light your 6g Pico. LED light is extremly efficient and going by specs and compairing wattage doesn't work. IMO PC and MH on a Pico is overkill and your just looking for problems with heat gain. I've never seen a NanoCustoms LED fixture so I don't know what the light looks like, but seeing how Solaris LED fixtures work, I have to say that LED is the best way to go with smaller tanks. There is a thread on the DIY section were a guy built a 13 bulb LED mod for his 12g nano and he's reporting that there is plenty of light for his tank. I'm thinking that 6 LED's would be perfect for a 6g tank.

 

 

You might want to read the specs on that linked fixture. They're only 1W leds and only 250lumens total. A 13W screw in CF has like 2-3x the light output...

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strangelove

Well like I said I've never used the NanoC's LED light fixture, but I was interested in it a while back. I'm just voting for it because I really like LED technology. My thinking on it is that a 1 watt LED light is more efficient at putting out light by not loosing light output by creating heat like PC and MH do, that it uses most of it's energy usage producing light. Remember PC's although somewhat efficient waste wattage by producing heat, also the light is more diffused so you loose light through the sides of a tank. MH lights burn a filament which also wastes wattage through producing heat, the light is also transmitted through the sides of the tank. LED light is very directional, meaning a majority of light is focused where you want it, inside your tank, so basically you need less wattage to do the same thing a PC or MH light does. The old watts per gallon rule does not apply when you deal with LED lights. So again, I think the fact that it only uses 1 watt is fine. And by the way the NanoC has five lights, 3 white and 2 blue leds, so in total you have 5 led lights, that IMO is enough light for a Pico. Someone will just have to try it out and see what type of growth they get from their corals to see if the NanoC LED fixture works. IMHO I just think that a 6 gallon tank is so small that the amount of light required to grow corals would be minimal. The tank can't be more that 1" foot deep and by the way LED light is able to penetrate through water there should be no light loss from top to bottom.

 

If plancton is unsure about it, he should get one light fixture for $90 bucks and run that in conjunction with his PC light he already has, if things look good than take the PC away. If you need more light than get another NanoC fixture. Then use the PC light to grow macros in a mini fuge. Corallife also has a mini LED light, and if you wanted to add a cool lunar cycle Neptune Systems makes a dimmable 5 blue led retrofit kit NS9117_1.jpg That would be awesome two NanoC LED fixtures with a Neptune kit fitted in between for a programable lunar cycle. Sure your looking at a $300 light set up, but if I had a Pico tank, that's what I would do.

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HecticDialectics

Leds shmeds. All I know is that 250 lumens is -very- low. 20lumens per watt on a 4W Luxeon would mean 400lumens with 5 leds. Those on the linked website are a little more efficient, but efficiency doesn't mean anything if there simply isn't enough light/wattage. A led could make 200lumens per watt, but if it's only 4 250mA leds, then you're still getting -very- low light intensity as far as reefing is concerned.

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Ha I love seeing people putting down LEDs that dont even understand the technology or

how they are measured and what their output is. First off, I agree 100% with Strangelove,

except I wouldnt spend the $89 on the nanotuners LED light. I would make my own.

Although I have to say the Solaris is Awesome. What makes it awesome is not just the LEDs,

but the micro processer which allows you 1000% control over your lighting and gives you

24hr varied lighting. Ive seen it first hand I would bet that 5 years from now...this will be

the standard in Reef lights. Corals thrive under these lights. Everyone I know that owns

one of these loves them. I would also bet the price will drop on them within the next 2

years. Imagine never changing bulbs for over 5 years...no heat issues, low electric bills.

 

All these manufactures and people are saying "this LED is 1 watt and that LED is 5 watt",

they are guessing. Cause LEDs cant be measured in watts. LEDs are measured in mcds

"Millicandelas" = Candlepower. The LED is measured at the source of how bright it is in

candlepower or measured at its impact point. This being called Footcandle. Which is better

for us saltwater people..cause we can see exactly how much light is hitting the surface.

LEDs take such a low amount of energy...to run them that they cant be measured in watts

of power. They also give very little heat.

 

Power Compacts and Metal Halide are measured in watts it takes to power them. Because

they use so much power to run and as we all know they give off HEAT because of this! The LEDS

I got take 20ma (milliamps) of current draw to Power each single bulb. But their actual light output is

extremely high. I bought a bulk of super bright white LEDs from one of the leading companies in LED

technology.

 

This is what I got:

100 - 10mm 140,000 mcd super bright white

100 - 10mm 60,000 mcd actinic blue 420nm

100 - 8mm wideangle 45,000 mcd actinic blue 420nm

100 - 5mm wideangle 19,000 mcd blue (Im using these for moonlighting)

 

Im converting one of my 12 gallon Nano cubes to all LED. Im planning the arrays now

and I will post more when I get more into it.

 

Im an Architecture photographer and I use 1000 watt Metal Halide lights with softboxes

at my interior photoshoots. They work great! They got hotter then hell...but they work awesome.

Ive nevered used them for my saltwater aquariums and I never will. Currently I use a mix

of Power Compacts and LED lighting. Soon I will also be ditching the PCs as well.

Everyone in my tanks are thriving...

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strangelove

Hey Nynex welcome to the forum, glad to see someone else who appreciates LEDs, wish I had the know how to build a DIY light fixture. I think building it right in a stock Nano hood is the way to go, you've got a reflector and fan already built in, and all you would need is the parts for the lights and power source, heat sinks too. Keep us updated on your progress.

 

Im an Architecture photographer and I use 1000 watt Metal Halide lights with softboxes

at my interior photoshoots. They work great! They got hotter then hell...but they work awesome.

Ive nevered used them for my saltwater aquariums and I never will. Currently I use a mix

of Power Compacts and LED lighting. Soon I will also be ditching the PCs as well.

Everyone in my tanks are thriving...

 

Another photographer, right on! I do industrial photography, guess it takes the practical application of understanding light to understand LED light. For those that don't know, we use flash strobes that produce light that is extremely close to the light spectrum of day light and these filament bulbs get so hot and sometimes explode. Can you imagine if the Nano community modified 1000 watt MH flash strobes to be used for aquarium lights, that would be crazy bright B)

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Yes, LEDs are awsome, i don't know much about them though. I think however they are not logical yet for a reef tank. The solaris is very expensive, and you could easily get a very nice metal halide fixture for the amount they ask for it.

In time they will be a lot more affordable and more common on our aquariums.

IMO

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strangelove
Strangelove, do you have a thread on your light?

 

No, but I'll start a thread if your interested.

 

that Nanocustoms Pico Light is a rip off...

 

not as good either...

 

Could you modify the bulbs in the NanoCustoms fixture with something better, like adding aditional lights and a fan to draw heat out the top. I like the size and build of the fixture also how it's enclosed with a clear cover. It would be an interesting mod to add some souel leds to the NanoC. $90 bucks plus some extra dough for parts, it could still be a sweet light for a pico tank.

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Strangelove...Cool good to see another Photographer with an Understanding of Light.

 

Actually my Metal Halides for my photoshoots are not Strobes. They are set lighting

with 48" softboxes. For architecture..you dont need strobes too much. Although I use them

when I do Restaurant shoots. The set lighting is easier to incorporate into the natural lighting.

 

Im getting into doing Underwater photography of the Reefs around the world. I will hopefully be

putting out a few books at some point.

 

So anyway with my Nano. Actually I put new fans in the hood and you dont need a reflector

with LEDs because they are directional. Unless you pointed them into the reflector...hey idea..lol.

 

Heat sinks are also not needed...There is very little heat. What heat there is, is countered by the fan.

 

121a you need to do more research. LEDs are 100% practical for Reefs. Ask Strangelove. I bet his

corals are thriving.

 

I see these metal halide nuts that think there is never enough light...I laugh...Ohhh gee I will put a

150 watt MH on a 6 gallon nano. Ummm obviously these people dont realize that too much light will

not only bleach your corals but put your livestock in photoshock.

 

People would be surprised if they scuba dived to the actual reefs and seen what the lighting was like.

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neanderthalman
Ha I love seeing people putting down LEDs that dont even understand the technology or

how they are measured and what their output is. First off, I agree 100% with Strangelove,

except I wouldnt spend the $89 on the nanotuners LED light. I would make my own.

Although I have to say the Solaris is Awesome. What makes it awesome is not just the LEDs,

but the micro processer which allows you 1000% control over your lighting and gives you

24hr varied lighting. Ive seen it first hand I would bet that 5 years from now...this will be

the standard in Reef lights. Corals thrive under these lights. Everyone I know that owns

one of these loves them. I would also bet the price will drop on them within the next 2

years. Imagine never changing bulbs for over 5 years...no heat issues, low electric bills.

 

All these manufactures and people are saying "this LED is 1 watt and that LED is 5 watt",

they are guessing. Cause LEDs cant be measured in watts. LEDs are measured in mcds

"Millicandelas" = Candlepower. The LED is measured at the source of how bright it is in

candlepower or measured at its impact point. This being called Footcandle. Which is better

for us saltwater people..cause we can see exactly how much light is hitting the surface.

LEDs take such a low amount of energy...to run them that they cant be measured in watts

of power. They also give very little heat.

 

Power Compacts and Metal Halide are measured in watts it takes to power them. Because

they use so much power to run and as we all know they give off HEAT because of this! The LEDS

I got take 20ma (milliamps) of current draw to Power each single bulb. But their actual light output is

extremely high. I bought a bulk of super bright white LEDs from one of the leading companies in LED

technology.

 

This is what I got:

100 - 10mm 140,000 mcd super bright white

100 - 10mm 60,000 mcd actinic blue 420nm

100 - 8mm wideangle 45,000 mcd actinic blue 420nm

100 - 5mm wideangle 19,000 mcd blue (Im using these for moonlighting)

 

Im converting one of my 12 gallon Nano cubes to all LED. Im planning the arrays now

and I will post more when I get more into it.

 

Im an Architecture photographer and I use 1000 watt Metal Halide lights with softboxes

at my interior photoshoots. They work great! They got hotter then hell...but they work awesome.

Ive nevered used them for my saltwater aquariums and I never will. Currently I use a mix

of Power Compacts and LED lighting. Soon I will also be ditching the PCs as well.

Everyone in my tanks are thriving...

 

You have completely oversimplified LED lighting, and I fear it may well be yourself that does not understand how LED lighting works.

 

For starters, mcd is quite possibly the worst way to measure light output. In fact, it's not a light output at all, but a brightness - completely different. It drives me insane that LEDs are sold by mcd, as it is not a useful value for illumination of an area. LEDs were originally designed for indication, and this is why datasheets list a brightness and a viewing angle, not an output. We are adapting the technology to illumination, and we need to understand how the specifications translate from the intended application to our own.

 

I'll pose a question - which LED has a higher output, and which is brighter?

 

A 10,000mcd LED with a 20 degree beam angle

A 20,000mcd LED with a 10 degree beam angle

 

Clearly, the second LED, with a brightness of 20,000 mcd, is brighter.

 

The first has a solid angle of 0.38 steradians, and the second has a solid angle of 0.095 steradians. Now, since a candela is defined as the output (lumens) divided by the solid angle, we can solve for the output in lumens of each LED. The first has an output of 0.38sr X 10cd = 3.8lm. The second LED has an output of 0.095sr X 20cd = 1.9lm.

 

So, if you look at the two LEDs, the second one will be brighter - twice as bright in fact. However, brightness is not what is important for general illumination from an overlapping array of LEDs. What we need to know is the output of the LED. The output of the first LED, the dimmer LED, is HIGHER than the output of the brighter LED.

 

Then, things get further complicated by the fact that, if built properly, you are overlapping the output from several different LEDs.

 

Now, solid angle is also why LEDs are so awesome.

 

Lets compare an imaginary tank lit by a single LED (for simplicity) to one lit by a conventional light source. We'll use the data for the first LED. Under the single LED, the coral will "see" a brightness of 10,000mcd, with an output of only 3.8lm. Now, in order for the coral to "see" the same brightness from a conventional light source, with a solid angle of a complete sphere (4 pi), we will require a much greater output. So, to get 10cd over a solid angle of 4 pi, the output of the conventional light source will have to be nearly 126 lm. That's 33 times the output of the LED, in order to get the same illumination in the tank. This is why we can get the same "brightness" from an LED array with less power than MH, despite the fact that MH is a more efficient light source (measured in lm/W).

 

So, to counter your statement, the output from LEDs is actually very low. The low output is simply focused into a tight cone, so the brightness is high. This is good for lighting very small areas, but this quickly makes LEDs very inefficient on larger tanks with correspondingly larger arrays. Anything with a larger footprint than a 5.5g AGA (for 5mm leds) and you'll use less power with MH and a good reflector. Calculations for that can be found in my "LED array for a pico" thread. Less power also results in less heat, especially since MH is three to five times more efficient than 5/10mm LED

 

LEDs CAN be measured in watts, so long as the efficiency (lumens/watt) is also known. It's also extremely important to know the power in watts, to know the power consumption and heat production of the array. As I said before, at larger tank sizes MH becomes a better choice, since it has an extremely wide beam angle and the highest efficiency of all current lighting technologies, save for High Pressure Sodium. Sure, a single LED might only use 0.06W, but your array of 400 LEDs will still use 24W. Most of that will still be heat, as LEDs do not have a particularly high output efficiency (~20lm/W for 5mm). For comparison, MH has an efficiency between 60 and 100lm/W, depending on power, color temperature, and ballast type.

 

Now, nynex, I'd recommend that before shooting your mouth off, make sure you know what you're talking about first. You're not the first to experiment with LED lighting, nor can you be considered an "expert" from merely asking a friend a few questions.

 

Welcome to NR. :)

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Well thank you Mr Science for that lesson...Its LED 101....

 

But how am I shooting my mouth off by sharing what ive learned.

Ive been researching this for awile and maybe there is little more I need

to learn. As you obviously didnt read in my second post is Im a pro photographer,

I use five 1000 watt metal halide set lighting for my photoshoots. I understand metal

halide and I understand lighting. Ive been shooting over 27 years.

 

As I said Im only making an LED array for a 12 gallon Nano Cube...(NOT a 125 gallon 6 foot long tank!)

 

So Mr Wizard Neanderthalman....Although you have a good argument and I fully understand what you

are saying..I think you are the one being cocky and need to relax. This isnt a contest of who's right

and who's wrong.. we are all here to share ideas and to learn..geeezzzzz

 

 

By the way Ive been to London several times...with a few different bands.. seen alot of cool

shows there.

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HecticDialectics
Well thank you Mr Science for that lesson...Its LED 101....

 

But how am I shooting my mouth off by sharing what ive learned.

Ive been researching this for awile and maybe there is little more I need

to learn. As you obviously didnt read in my second post is Im a pro photographer,

I use five 1000 watt metal halide set lighting for my photoshoots. I understand metal

halide and I understand lighting. Ive been shooting over 27 years.

 

As I said Im only making an LED array for a 12 gallon Nano Cube...(NOT a 125 gallon 6 foot long tank!)

 

So Mr Wizard Neanderthalman....Although you have a good argument and I fully understand what you

are saying..I think you are the one being cocky and need to relax. This isnt a contest of who's right

and who's wrong.. we are all here to share ideas and to learn..geeezzzzz

By the way Ive been to London several times...with a few different bands.. seen alot of cool

shows there.

 

 

You made several incorrect statements. Neanderthalman corrected you. Grow up a little and learn from it

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neanderthalman
Ha I love seeing people putting down LEDs that dont even understand the technology or

how they are measured and what their output is.

 

By "shooting your mouth off", this is what I was directly referring to. You blame others for not understanding the technology, then you yourself make incorrect statenements about the technology, how they are measured, and what their output is. You may have been sharing what you have learned, and I won't blame you for that, but what you learned and were then sharing with us was incorrect.

 

This isn't about me being right, nor is it a lame contest of "who is smarter on an internet forum". It's about correcting misinformation so that people reading this thread are not misinformed by you about LED lighting.

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First off HECTIC how am I incorrect??? As you shown from your other post

you know nothing about LEDs. So How would you know?

 

Second...Im not incorrect. LEDs are measured by millicandellas = Candlepower.

Yes they are measured at the source and or at their destination point..which

is called a foot candle.Its interesting that several engineers I spoke to including

my girlfriends cousin who a elecrtrical engineering professor told me LEDs cant be

truly measured in watts. Also if you look any LED website...like this one:

 

http://led.linear1.org/

 

PCs and Metal Halide are measured in watts of power it takes to run them. LEDs take

such low power (20ma foward voltage) that you cant measure them in watts of power.

 

Now neanderthalman said a few things that are right. Im not disputing that. Infact im glad

that he pointed those things out and now im doing further research. Im still learning here too.

Although I think he was being quite cocky about it..

 

and I thought the "know it alls" were only at reef central....geeezzzz

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neanderthalman

yeah, he posted here as well a while back. Did a nice job, though I never did like the wire wrap connection. While it works, it leaves it too open for corrosion between the contact points. Looks like there were similar responses over at RC.

 

And yes, you can measure LEDs in watts of power. A standard 5mm LED uses about 0.06W of power, nominally. I think what you are trying to get at is that 10W of LED is not necessarily twice as bright as 5W of LED, and you're right about that. It's also made complicated by the cone-shaped emission from LEDs, rather than an omnidirectional light source.

 

You cannot compare watts of leds to watts of metal halide, but at the end of it all, you CAN MEASURE LEDS IN WATTS. You just cant make a direct comparison to other lighting technologies.

 

You say you've spoken to an engineer about this, and while that's good, electrical engineers don't study light. They study electricity. Not exactly a subtle difference. If you're looking to start throwing credentials around, here you go. I'm also an engineer, and unlike electrical engineers, I did study light. You can look it up if you like, it's called Engineering Physics at McMaster University - Interdisciplinary stream. More specifically, I studied nuclear physics, optics and lasers, and solid state fabrication.

 

Hectic was not lying when he said that some of what you said was incorrect.

 

For one, you claim that the measurement of footcandles (candela) is more appropriate for reefers than lumens. Not true. Candela is a very good measurement when determining brightness of an indicator, but tells you jack about the output of an LED for general illumination. It is the output of the LEDs, not the brightness, that is additive throughout the array and determines how "bright" it will be as a finished product.

 

Secondly, you claim that leds cannot be rated in watts. They can. A single LED consumes nominally 0.06W. 400 LEDs consumes nominally 24W.

 

Thirdly, you claim that LEDs give off very little heat. Quite the opposite, particularly with luxeons or crees - hence the heatsinks. While they do run cool, 100W of LED will produce more heat than 100W of metal halide. This is due to a higher efficacy of MH over LED. It's simply that ALL of the light from LED is directed at the tank and not lost, so you can light the tank with lower power, and thus have the same brightness in the tank with less heat produced.

 

Lastly, you claimed that the output of an LED is high, when it is not, and I showed why it is not. The brightness is high, but the output is actually quite low. This is related to why mcd is a poor measure of illumination.

 

This isn't about "knowing it all" nynex. Hell, I get told all the time on this site, and I can readily admit it. If there were any controversy here, I'd give you the benefit of the doubt and leave you with your opinion - just as I do with strangelove's love for the solaris light fixture. However, you have stated facts that are not true, and so I corrected them. That's it. No egos, no e-wang, just the truth.

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