Intense salt creep in sump.

[jeepdude]

I have had this thirty five gallon tank up for quite sometime now. I get a lot of salt creep inside the cabinet and around the sump. It get on my power wires for my skimmer and my return pump. It gets on my refugium light. Its f***in everywhere. I haven't done much research into the issue but I have found that salt creep is caused by splashing/bubbles in the saltwater. My problem lies in the fact that I have like three and a half to four feet of drop in my overflow to my sump/refugium. There is no solid way to delete bubbles from my system due to the inconsistency of the water pressure flowing out of the overflow. The water just goes into the pipe and drops directly into the sump. The pipe is submerged about a quarter inch. There still is however a lot of bubbles from this. I have seen some suggestions for a sponge to be placed under the outflow of the overflow pipe. This would reduce some of the salt creep I suppose. I'm just wondering if there are any better ideas as to reducing the bubbles and splashing and in effect reducing this ridiculous amount of creep!

 

Any suggestions would be great.

[euphoricgear]

Make an acrylic cover for the sump or get those foam with big holes. They're colored black and usually found on overflow/fish stores. It should help reduce the bubbles.

[pmoradi2002]

Do you have a filter sock?

[jeepdude]

Do you have a filter sock?

 

No I'm not using a filter sock. I would like to get a filter sock rigged to the bottom of the pvc for catching excess food etc...Is there a good method of attaching the filter sock to the pvc that is easily removable?

 

Make an acrylic cover for the sump or get those foam with big holes. They're colored black and usually found on overflow/fish stores. It should help reduce the bubbles.

 

Just place the foam with the big holes directly under the pvc outflow? I understand this would probably work and is probably my best option. Just wondering if there were any other options I suppose.

[bensanders]

I'm having similar issues so, following.

[Rabidgerbil38]

No I'm not using a filter sock. I would like to get a filter sock rigged to the bottom of the pvc for catching excess food etc...Is there a good method of attaching the filter sock to the pvc that is easily removable?

 

I just use a zip tie to hold my filter sock on, I have a gate valve in line to tie the sock over though.

[bensanders]

No I'm not using a filter sock. I would like to get a filter sock rigged to the bottom of the pvc for catching excess food etc...Is there a good method of attaching the filter sock to the pvc that is easily removable?

 

Yep, here's what you do. Take a zip tie and tie it around the bare PVC as tight as possible, so that it cannot slip. Place your filter sock over your drain pipe and pull it up enough so that some of the filter sock fabric extends up and past the zip tie you tied to the PVC. Now take another zip tie and zip it around both the filter sock and the drain ABOVE the 1st zip tie. Cinch it down so that it cannot slip down the drain pipe past the 1st zip tie.

 

Sigh. make sense? lol

[jeepdude]

Yep, here's what you do. Take a zip tie and tie it around the bare PVC as tight as possible, so that it cannot slip. Place your filter sock over your drain pipe and pull it up enough so that some of the filter sock fabric extends up and past the zip tie you tied to the PVC. Now take another zip tie and zip it around both the filter sock and the drain ABOVE the 1st zip tie. Cinch it down so that it cannot slip down the drain pipe past the 1st zip tie.

 

Sigh. make sense? lol

 

Makes perfect sense lol.

 

Kind of rough but the refugium doesn't have to be pretty lol just has to work. I will try this.

[bensanders]

Let us know how it works. The problem I'm having is this: the water rushing down the drain pipe (5' head) carries bubbles into the filter sock and forces them through the 200 micron sock. This creates microbubbles that my sump baffles won't remove...

[jeremai]

Let us know how it works. The problem I'm having is this: the water rushing down the drain pipe (5' head) carries bubbles into the filter sock and forces them through the 200 micron sock. This creates microbubbles that my sump baffles won't remove...

put a valve on your return pump, or get a smaller pump.

[jeepdude]

I'm going to try two things. I'm going to put a sponge after the pvc outflow. to hopefully slow the bubbles and in effect stop my salt creep. After the sponge I am going to put a square of egg crate to place "pillow stuffing" on and catch excess detritus/food/waste/etc...I will post the outcome soon. Hopefully I will see some good results. Thanks everyone for the fast replies.

[bensanders]

put a valve on your return pump, or get a smaller pump.

 

I have both a GV teed off from my return line and an appropriately sized pump.

[jeepdude]

put a valve on your return pump, or get a smaller pump.

 

I have a valve on my return pump. However, I don't want to sacrifice flow for less salt creep. Even if I pump less water via smaller pump or half pinched valve, the water is still going to gain quite a bit of speed in the drop from the display tank to the sump which will leave me with quite a few bubbles still. I may have a little less salt creep but I'm hoping this is not my only true option. If all else fails. I may have to resort to this though. Thanks for the suggestion.

 

I have a valve on my return pump. However, I don't want to sacrifice flow for less salt creep. Even if I pump less water via smaller pump or half pinched valve, the water is still going to gain quite a bit of speed in the drop from the display tank to the sump which will leave me with quite a few bubbles still. I may have a little less salt creep but I'm hoping this is not my only true option. If all else fails. I may have to resort to this though. Thanks for the suggestion.

 

EDIT: Just saw this post was meant to answer someone else's post. Sorry!

[bensanders]

I have a valve on my return pump. However, I don't want to sacrifice flow for less salt creep. Even if I pump less water via smaller pump or half pinched valve, the water is still going to gain quite a bit of speed in the drop from the display tank to the sump which will leave me with quite a few bubbles still. I may have a little less salt creep but I'm hoping this is not my only true option. If all else fails. I may have to resort to this though. Thanks for the suggestion.

 

 

Exactly, our water is exiting the tank at gravity's will. A return valve/appropriately sized pump has nothing to do with it.

[jeremai]

jeepdude, imo your best bet is a filter sock. the big ones come with a drawstring that will probably hold well enough to the downpipe.

 

I have both a GV teed off from my return line and an appropriately sized pump.

if the water is flowing through your sump too quickly for your bubble trap to work efficiently, either your bubble trap's design is flawed, or your return pump is obviously not 'appropriately sized'. if you hear hoofbeats, think horses and not zebras - the water flowing in isn't the issue. the issue is how fast the water flows out.

[bensanders]

if the water is flowing through your sump too quickly for your bubble trap to work efficiently, either your bubble trap's design is flawed, or your return pump is obviously not 'appropriately sized'. if you hear hoofbeats, think horses and not zebras - the water flowing in isn't the issue. the issue is how fast the water flows out.

 

This is a more correct, it is likely my true problem. If you'll click my sig you'll see my bubble trap. Typical "water flowing over-under-over" setup with 2" between baffles and about 1.5" space under the raised baffle (which is guess is my limiting factor). What do you think jerm?

 

 

I'm starting to think maybe "under-over-under" is better?

[jeremai]

honestly, it looks like the design of your bubble trap is fine. the return pump should be sized at about 5x the display volume, which means if you're still using the 1262, it's about three times too powerful, even after head loss. the water flows too fast through the bubble trap, dropping its efficiency.

[bensanders]

I'll open the return's tee-off all the way (at least until I'm only pushing a minimal amount like 300 gph back up into the tank) and see if that helps. I guess I should clearly see water move slower through the bubble trap and no more micro-bubbles in the tank

[thadscottmoore]

check out how I did my tank to sump line. I dont use a filter sock on mine. and get no bubbles.

I installed a T facing backwards- top of T is where air escapes. oversized pipe enters 5 inches below the water surface.

 

The line at top of T going to sump is my air outlet- and it gets some water from time to time- so, I vent back to sump to eleminate any escape of water during continous burp type process. and its quiet!

 

[jeepdude]

jeepdude, imo your best bet is a filter sock. the big ones come with a drawstring that will probably hold well enough to the downpipe.

 

 

if the water is flowing through your sump too quickly for your bubble trap to work efficiently, either your bubble trap's design is flawed, or your return pump is obviously not 'appropriately sized'. if you hear hoofbeats, think horses and not zebras - the water flowing in isn't the issue. the issue is how fast the water flows out.

 

I'm going to order a filter sock similar to the one you just explained and try that out. I appreciate your advice!

[brun129]

Yep, here's what you do. Take a zip tie and tie it around the bare PVC as tight as possible, so that it cannot slip. Place your filter sock over your drain pipe and pull it up enough so that some of the filter sock fabric extends up and past the zip tie you tied to the PVC. Now take another zip tie and zip it around both the filter sock and the drain ABOVE the 1st zip tie. Cinch it down so that it cannot slip down the drain pipe past the 1st zip tie.

 

Sigh. make sense? lol

 

 

Bad, BAD, BAD idea. Crap builds up on the inside of the filter sock, water cannot make it through the sock as fast as your pump is sending it up. Because your sock is sealed around the pipe water backs up and the only place it can go is over the edge of your display tank and onto your floor until your sump runs dry.

[bensanders]

?

 

Ok. Clean the filter sock once a week. Geez

[bensanders]

the return pump should be sized at about 5x the display volume, which means if you're still using the 1262, it's about three times too powerful, even after head loss.

 

Hey Jeremai, what exactly do you guess the 1262 is pushing after 4.5' of head loss? I'm using nylon tubing with two 3/4" returns however, the returns aren't drilled into the tank, they hang over the rim. Kind of like so...

 

 

___

I $ I___<

I

 

 

The "<" is representing a fanned outlet typical of most returns and the "$" is the tank rim.

 

Wouldn't you consider this to add 3 elbows per return, so 6 elbows plus the tee (to branch them off from the single pump outlet) and the tee-off gate valve to throttle the pump back. Seems like 4.5' of head and all of these fittings would add quite a lot of head loss. What do you think?

[brun129]

?

 

Ok. Clean the filter sock once a week. Geez

 

 

I would rather not leaving anything to chance. Say a powerhead falls off the glass, starts blowing sand around, and you have a bunch of fine particles that get into your filter sock. what then ?

 

The problem with that setup is there is ZERO redundancy. One failure and you have a potential flood. Every part of my tank has double and triple redundancies. No single failure, or in most cases, no combination of multiple failures can do any significant damage.

 

The return section of my sump is small enough that a total failure of both drains cannot oferflow the main tank. My top-off reservoir is small enough that a failure of both float switches - draining the top-off reservoir - would not make a significant change to salinity; but it's still big enough to last a week. My sump is big enough that a float switch failure -draining the top-off reservoir into the sump, followed by the failure of the return pump, which would back syphoon water into sump would still not overflow the sump.

 

Even in the almost impossible situation of a top-off failure followed by a double drain failure, by my calculations, I have enough room in the DT that I wouldn't have a flood.

 

I have my heaters on seperate powerbars on my reefkeer to prevent any issues with sticky relays, and the powerbars are on different circuits in the house in case of a breaker tripping. My overtemperature programming starts by turning on a fan; in case that doesn't work it shuts off the halides; if it still keeps going up even after the halides are off it will dump the entire top-off reservoir into the tank - I keep my reservoir in the cantina where the RO water stays at around 60 - 65.

 

My undertemperature programming will turn on the halides if they are off, turn on the sump halide and turn on all powerheads to any heat; but that's after turning on a third heater that is programmed to only come on in case of undertemperature alarms.

 

In case of a power outage, one of my PC4 goes through a UPS; the reefkeeper will detect a power outage and keeps operating my skimmer, MP40, a seperate MAG3 return that I have plumbed over the back and a string of 12 LEDs (I run 12 white and 12 blue on dimmable meanwells for sunrise/set simulation)

 

 

I know this is WAY off topic and I know that I went overboard with redundancy on my system. But I learned the hard way that a single point of failure is a very dangerous thing.

 

There are easy ways to make a sock holder with a backup - I you have hard PVC drains, you can get a 1" -> 3" adapter that you can attach the sock to and you have enough room to to make holes for an escape path for water in case the sock clogs.

 

 

The fitting looks like this - your drain line goes in the middle, the sock goes around the outside, and in those four quadrants in between, you would drill vent holes.

[cptbjorn]

you can decrease the amount of microbubbles produced by either decreasing the drop (prob not an option) or by decreasing the velocity of the flow through the drain. this is possible by either decreasing the flow volume (ie using a smaller return pump or restricting the one you have), or by installing a larger drain.

 

you can also reduce the effect of the bubbles with baffles/filters, but it sounds like you just have too much flow through too small of a drain.