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Mr. Fosi's 5.5AGA fish/coral mix


Mr. Fosi

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ZaderMatermorts: You will be interested to read my update below, since I did some water tests for Ca and alk. I don't have the GSP yet, but I do have some plain star polyps. I'll have the GSP by the end of the week (can't wait!).

 

The AC70 (formerly called the 300) isn't a bad fuge and I origionally had some chaeto in it. My first batch of chaeto just turned brown and fell apart in the tank. I haven't been able to figure oiut why. Check out the thread on it.

 

This second batch has been doing quite well and I have been thinking of putting it in the fuge with a light over it. I just don't want to jinx it, you know? If you do an HOB 'fuge, definatly go with the 110, it is worth the extra $$ for the room.

 

fishwannabe: I'm not down there yet! My wife and I are moving in July and we can't wait. I have been in contact with a person here on NR from the Greenville area, so I am sure that I'll make it up there at least once.

 

Update:

 

I took two water samples to the LFS: one from the rock tank (IO only + 250ml/8g saturated kalkwasser) and one from the 5.5g (50/50 IO/Oceanic).

 

The calc and alk results were as follows:

 

IO + kalk

-----------

Ca = 320

alk = 190

 

50/50

-------

Ca = 420

alk = 160

 

Remember that I only changed 2g of the ~4g in the 5.5 and I did it 4 days ago, so this is running at half-strength after the coralline and corals have had a chance to pull some Ca out.

 

The baseline for the IO before the kalk was 300/160. IO + kalk was tested 24hrs after I dosed and it only added 20 to the Ca and upped the alk (which was already pretty high) by another 30.

 

Conclusion: I don't know if I will run a 50/50 mix, since I still have to play around with it a little bit, but I will certainly be using some mix of IO and Oceanic from now on. It may not be as cost-effective as doing kalk, but it has none of the overdose or chemical hazards that kalk does.

 

I really need to pick up a Ca/alk testkit so I can start measuring the level of Ca attenuation. If I can start getting some solid data on Ca depleation rate, I may be able to drastically reduce the waterchanges that I must do.

 

In other news, the seaclown skimmer puts out a metric ton of microbubbles. I am going to swap in a slower pump and try supplimenting the venturi with an airpump and a cheapie ceramic aristone.

 

The cool little snails that I found in the rock tank appear to have croaked. They looked pretty dead before I did the kalk experiment. Oh well.

 

The three weeks of LR cooking didn't eliminate the cyano either. It has already begun to reappear upon the same rock that it had colonized in my display. I find that a real testament to the ability of this millions-year-old organism to survive in adverse conditions (salinity swings, temperatures in excess of 85 degrees, and three weeks of near total darkness). I am not overly concerned, since there is nothing in the tank, but I do find it a little suprising, especialy given that the tank had 350gph whipping through the tank for those three weeks. "Increase your flow, that should help the cyano", yeah right.

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ZaderMatermorts
I find that a real testament to the ability of this millions-year-old organism to survive in adverse conditions (salinity swings, temperatures in excess of 85 degrees, and three weeks of near total darkness).

 

Yep unfortunately trying to kill off algae never really works, unless the permanent conditions are adverse to their growth. As you've said, they have millions of years to attest their stregth. You can never totally get rid of it, only hope to contain it and keep it from growing with low nutrients(including light) etc. This would be true for the chaeto imo. If it was dying in your fuge it was low nutrients, light, carbon, nitrogen, phosphorous etc. However, this stuff has made a living on the reefs where dissolved nutrients are low, but there's a TON of light available. I'd look there first. Correct spectrum and intensity are important. I wouldn't think it's cause of the tap water like someone mentioned, generally if there's enough toxins to kill chaeto, you would have noticed it in your fish first. On the other hand, the shipping could have been too much for it, too cold or hot or whatever, plus it's dark. If this batch is growing well I wouldn't hesitate to pull some off and experiment with it in the fuge.

 

 

That is very interesting that the 50/50 salt mix would be THAT high in ca. If my guesstimation is right that would put pure oceanic salt at over 500 ppm, right? Maybe closer to 600. Yikes. Unless there is some sort of reaction between the two salts. That is near perfect levels of calcium in the mix though. What was the salinity or sp gravity in both tanks, the same? If the rock tank has a lower sp. gravity, then the results are a bit skewed, but if they are the same, that should be about right.

 

You say mixing the two would be more expensive than kalk dosing, how's that? Do you just mean the extra water changes would be more expensive?

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If my guesstimation is right that would put pure oceanic salt at over 500 ppm, right? Maybe closer to 600. Yikes.

 

I have heard reports of Ca concentrations being that high in Oceanic salt, but those reports were not confirmed in the Inland Reef Aquaria Salt Study that was published in Advanced Aquarist. If I had been on the ball, I would have brought a sample of my freshly mixed IO/Oceanic water, but I forgot to do it.

 

IRASS Part I

IRASS Part II

 

This image is from the appendix of the article. "O" is oceanic:

ca.gif

 

 

 

Not that I wholly trust AA Magazine, but they are generally a good source of information about this hobby. Their experimental design left some things to be desired, but what do you expect from a group of people that are doing the study pro bono? I wouldn't have paid the $15,000 for the fully replicated and exhaustive tests either.

 

What was the salinity or sp gravity in both tanks, the same? If the rock tank has a lower sp. gravity, then the results are a bit skewed, but if they are the same, that should be about right.

 

They are the same: 1.024. But you have to take into account that I am using a swing-arm hydrometer and the tanks differ in temperature by about 2F.

 

You say mixing the two would be more expensive than kalk dosing, how's that? Do you just mean the extra water changes would be more expensive?

 

The equipment needed for dosing kalk costs very little: a soda bottle, airline, airvalve. Kalk (CaOH), in the form of pickling lime, is about $2.50/16oz in my area. 16oz of CaOH will last me at least 2 years, even if I were to exclusively kalkwasser as my topoff and consistently mix it to maximum concentration. That's $1.25/year maximum cost to dose kalk, not counting any test kits.

 

Oceanic salt is, at minimum, $3 more expensive than IO regardless of what amount I purchase. When stepping up to the 5g range, it is more like $15 more expensive. Given that I must buy salt several times per year (let's say 4x for IO only and 3x if I mix the two), even if I am able to reduce the # of waterchanges I have to do, I will still be spending at least $12 more per year minumum.

 

That really isn't much of a cost, but it is still substantially more (10x) than just dosing kalk.

 

But, of course, one has to weigh the time-spent as well.

 

If I dose kalk, I have to be careful when mixing it, handling it, and dosing it. I will also have to be johnny-on-the-spot with the Ca/alk/pH tests, because in a 5.5g (only about 3.75-4g when you subtract the volume of the rock) things can go bad quick when you are dripping in something that has a pH of 12. Plus, I have a cat. Cat + tank equipment = things not nailed down get knocked over.

 

Of course, there is always the option of not mixing it to full strength, but that won't actually get much Ca into the tank. There is also the option of mixing it with vinegar to reduce the pH, but that is one more step to do and adds a substantial amount of dissolved organic carbon into my tank. Adding said carbon could be a boon if I were running a RDSB or a plenum, but I am not, so it would most likely only fuel the growth of unfavorable organisms such as pathogenic bacteria and cyanobacteria.

 

If I forgo the kalk and stick with the IO/Oceanic mix, I don't have to test as often (if ever) and I only have one step to perform: measure and dump the salts in the water. There are no worries about ODing the tank or pH swings and I don't have to worry about chemical burns or spilling a highly corrisive fluid on my clothes or equipment.

 

All-in-all I believe the salt mixing is the way to go.

 

EDIT: I was finally able to get a pic with most of the star polyps open.

 

4-18-06%20star%20polyps%20circles%20p.jpg

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Tank looks good! The frags I sent should fit in well :)

 

Thank you, and I am sure they will. I can't wait till they get here!

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Update time:

 

I meant to have most of these pics online last night, but my mom's 60th birthday was yesterday and our family got together at one of my sisters' houses. You know how that goes...

 

The zoas and GSP from ecotoxlady came in yesterday morning, so I had to look at them on my desk all day before I could get them into my tank. Since she (ecotoxlady) was interested in how they arrived and since I think that everyone here should know what an excellent packing job looks like, here are some pics:

 

Feels like Christmas:

4-20-06%20zoas&GSP%20p.jpg

 

 

Look at that; all warm and snuggly:

4-20-06%20zoas&GSP1%20p.jpg

 

 

There was just the barest amount of bag leakage and none made it out of the hard shell:

4-20-06%20zoas&GSP2%20p.jpg

 

 

Float the bags for a bit while I spend time with the pregnant wife. For those of you who are unfamiliar with pregnant women: NEVER go and greet your tank before you greet them.

4-20-06%20zoas&GSP3%20p.jpg

 

 

After 30sec in the tank. The circles will help you pick them out in future photos:

4-20-06%20zoas&GSP4%20circles%20p.JPG

 

 

And without the circles:

4-20-06%20zoas&GSP4%20p.jpg

 

 

The following pictures are from this morning, so the new stuff had been in the tank ~16hrs.

 

 

The green zoas. These were so happy with the packing job that about half of them opened up while still bagged, so I have the opportunity to show them around the office:

4-21-06%20green%20zoas.JPG%20p.jpg

 

 

Still no polyps extended, but that is to be expected. It took my other star polyps over a week to extend. Some of them still haven't emerged and we are nearing the two week mark:

 

4-21-06%20GSP%20p.jpg

 

 

And last, but not least, the frogspawn:

 

4-21-06%20frogspawn%20p.jpg

 

 

Thus ends the pictorial updates.

 

The GSP had a slightly funky smell to it when I opened the bag, but I didn't see any dead tissue so I glued it to some rubble and plopped it in the tank. I figured that if there was any dead stuff that I missed, the hermits and snails would get it. This morning everything was shifted around, so I know that they were all over it last night.

 

The long-necked zoa that is furthest from the camera also seems to be having a hard time turning toward the light. This morning, there was an area just below the head that was pinched in, giving the zoa a bobble-head look. I am thinking about removing it from the rock and gluing it in a different orientation, but I don't want to do that until it has had a couple days to fully acclimate.

 

More and more star polyps come out of the little purple frag every few days. Someone (I don't remember who) told me that I should isolate them from the main rockwork, lest they take over the tank. I think that person was right, so I moved them off the larger rock they had been perched on and I set them on the sand.

 

I decided to add a little aragonite sand back in because I wanted something to set the new frags in. I also think I like a sandy bottom look more than the bare bottom look, so I will start re-introducing sand into the tank over the next few waterchanges.

 

I am a little concerned about the frogspawn. If you compare today's photo with the last photo I took of it, you can see that it is mostly withdrawn. In fact, one of the polyps (the one to the left and closer to the camera) tends to stay more withdrawn more often.

 

You could say that this is an artifact of having taken the picture shortly after the lights came on, but this is how it looks just about every time I look in the tank. I am wondering if that has to do with the clownfish not staying out of it or if it doesn't like the lower flow/higher light area I moved it to. I think I may try moving it to another area of the tank and see if it will come out a little more.

 

I have been reading up on seaclone mods and I decided to perform one. I used teflon tape and an O-ring to create a better seal between the collection cup/body and collection cup/inner baffle tube interfaces. The results are: 1) the elimination of salt creep from the cup/body interface, 2) a virtual elimination of microbubble output, and 3) increased force to push skimmate up the cup neck and into the collection area.

 

I still want to perform at least two more mods: 1) reduce the height of the collection cup neck and 2) modify my penguin powerhead impeller by either drilling holes in the impeller wings or adding a bioball hemisphere to make a needlewheel.

 

I am not sure when I will get around to doing this, since my wife and I are going out of town this weekend to visit a friend who just returned from a month-long trip to China.

 

I guess it'll just have to wait until next week.

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ProFlatlander15

I recieved GSP from ecotoxlady yesterday. I have polyp extension yet either, but like you said, it is to be expected. She packaged the frag extremely well, I had no leakage at all. They are crazy- shaped frags, should look good when they come out.

 

Tank looks great Fosi, keep up the good work.

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Hey Mr. Fosi and ProFlatlander! I'm glad you guys were pleased with the packing job. I've had two people who've had problems with the frags I sent them stemming from the heat packs putting out too much heat. I'm pretty annoyed about the heatpacks because I bought them from an on-line fishstore and was under the impression that if wrapped properly in papertowels and not placed directly on the frags that they would produce just the right amount of heat. Apparently I was wrong as one person said the water temp was over 90 degrees

:tears: Please let me know how the frags do. The zoas btw are odd zoas in the sense that they have very long stems. They're very hardy though so just use your best judgement in how to glue the unattached ones down. If you have any problems with the frags don't hesitate to contact me and know that I'll replace them if there are any problems.

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Please let me know how the frags do.

 

Well, I wonder if the water temp was an issue in my package as well.

 

I have been away all weekend and I have some back to find no more zoas open than when I left. Not only that, but some of the others appear to be degrading; completely pulled in and their stalks are developing textured areas that look like early-stage rot.

 

None of the GSP has opened either and some of the tissue is starting to look sickly.

 

I think that I am going to lose much of what was sent.

 

I am going to do an NH3 test after I finished this post.

 

EDIT: Well, no NH3. I'll do another one tomorrow.

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:tears: Sorry to hear. I do hope that the zoas and gsp improve. Those heat packs really messed things up for me. The red zoas are really nice so I really hope they open up for you. Give everything some more time and see how it goes.
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I do hope that the zoas and gsp improve. Those heat packs really messed things up for me... Give everything some more time and see how it goes.

 

Don't worry about it. I'm gonna be steady-on and see what happens.

 

I'll leave everything in the tank becuase I see it like this: I have many hermits and snails in the tank, so if anything dies, it'll be scavenged right quick.

 

I hope this holds true because my frogspawn isn't doing well either. It looked fine (if a little retracted) last night right before the lights went off but it was covered in a pale gray, cyano-like film this morning when the lights came on.

 

I basted off as much of the film as I could and while doing that, found that the larger polyp (the one that has often been closed over the last couple weeks) was dead and peeling away from the skeleton. Great.

 

So I stuck a hose in and vacuumed out the dead polyp; it came right off the skeleton. The smaller polyp was fully retracted, but it didn't appear to have any dead material of its own and seemed to be firmly attached. I am not sure what to do. I kinda wish that I didn't have to be at work all day today, because I think that if something isn't done quick, I will lose the other polyp as well.

 

My mushroom and Madracis look fine and all the hermits, snails look fine. The clown looks good and the parameters were fine when I tested them last night. Heck, even the chaeto looks fine!

 

I just don't get it.

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Hmmm, there's definitely something odd going on with that frogspawn. I wish I had other suggestions but it sounds like you've been testing your water parameters. Refresh my memory, what kind of lighting do you have again? I do know that frogspawn are a lower light LPS so if you have MH lights on your tank the frogspawn would need to be in a low light area. How does it feed? Is it possible that any of your clean up crew are picking at it when you're not around? I had to move all my lps out of my main tank because something and I still don't know what was eating the feeders off my acans and micros (some of which are non-indo and really expensive). As soon as I moved them to my nano where there is no clean up crew or fish, they perked up and look great now. The only lps I keep in my main tank now is my dendro and a small frag of neon green candy cane since they both seem able to close up and protect themselves when the acans and micros couldn't. Let me know and I'll chat with you soon!

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Refresh my memory, what kind of lighting do you have again?

 

2x13W = 26W 50/50 PC

 

How does it feed?

 

Without vigor. I have fed it several times (soaked marine flakes) and each time it seemed less than enthusiastic.

 

Is it possible that any of your clean up crew are picking at it when you're not around?

 

While I haven't seen them pick at, I suppose that could be the case.

 

I had to move all my lps out of my main tank because something and I still don't know what was eating the feeders off my acans and micros.

 

Would this cause the death of a polyp in in 3.5 weeks?

 

I have another tank (10g AGA with crap for light) that houses some LR with no cleanup crew. I am using it to store LR and to test a seaclown skimmer, but I don't have the correct lighting to support any type of photosynthetic organisms.

 

I could pull out the crabs and snails from my 5.5g and drop them in the 10g, but I don't know how they would take the change in NO3 and pH (there is a significant difference between the tanks.

 

Could the clown be causing the problems?

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I'm not sure why there is a concern about the frogswpan openly eating. they eat foodstuffs that are much smaller than what is being attemped to feed it. Honsestly, I wouldn't worry about feeding it, they get enough nutrition by way of xzooanthallae and thus lighting.

 

Personally, I wouldnt feed it anymore. That may be leading to a water quality issue. Most corals do not need to be fed.

 

Otherwise, I would have to guess that many of your problems are stemming from the tank space itself. The water volume is so small that any tiny fluctuation may be causing serious problems. Without a fuge on the tank the pH may be dipping really low at night and skyrocketing in the day. If your tank is at work, you don't know this, but without a revers daylight system on the tank this happens. Fluctuations in water quality, clarity, temperature, can all cause frogspawn problems.

 

I would think about adding a HOB fuge with reverse daylight, or somehow adding to the water volume. This way when you dose you wont be basting the corals in the tank with the conconction... that too can cause major problems.

 

Good Luck.

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Personally, I wouldnt feed it anymore. That may be leading to a water quality issue.

 

I haven't tested for PO4, but my NO3 is down around 10 mg/l. Not sure what other issues might class as water quality (NO2=0 NH3=0 as of last evening).

 

Most corals do not need to be fed.

 

Indeed, which is why it was a once-a-week kind of thing. The Madracis loves to be fed and has noticeably grown in the few weeks since I started feeding it.

 

Without a fuge on the tank the pH may be dipping really low at night and skyrocketing in the day.

 

Temp, as far as I have noticed, stays within a 2F range from 78-80F. pH reads around 8.1 in the morning before the lights come on and 8.3 in the evening just before they go off.

 

This way when you dose you wont be basting the corals in the tank with the conconction... that too can cause major problems.

 

I am not dosing anything. I started using a 3/5 Oceanic/Instant Ocean salt mix. The basting I did today was to remove the (bacterial) film from the polyps.

 

Would any of the problems that you believe may be occuring effect either the mushroom, zoas, or Madracis? Because none of the others appear to be having any difficulty.

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sorry to hear about the frogspawn problems. i'm not sure what to suggest. I really don't feed mine that much maybe some cyclopeeze once a week or so. but that is not even spot feeding just a little pinch in the tank and everybody gets what they get. i'm pretty sure your not getting to much light . I am running the same 5.5 aga and i have a 96 watt 50/50 quad pc and my froggy loves it. as for the gsp and others let me know how they end up i got some from ecotoxlady as well. my green zoas from her are all fine and my reds look pretty good to, but not all open yet. My gsp look fine except for not being open yet. i'm still just keeping my fingers crossed. thanks again for everything ecotoxlady. (if you happen to read this post)

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my green zoas from her are all fine and my reds look pretty good to, but not all open yet.

 

Yeah, several more opened up. In fact, some of the ones that I thought I was going to lose were in the latest group of openers. Still no GSP, but I haven't given up on it yet. I figure, if I don't see anything in 2.5 weeks, I probably won't.

 

As for the frogspawn:

 

I did a 2min FW dip, during which I briskly basted the skeleton to remove dead tissue. When I put it back in the tank, I placed it is an area of strong flow and I am going to leave it there until tomorrow morning.

 

I couldn't get all the dead tissue off, but a couple of my hermits took care of that for me. The remaining polyp appears to be in better health than it was earlier today (slightly extended tenticles). If it is still in the skeleton tomorrow morning, I will move it to an area of slightly less flow.

 

The other star polyps that I bought 3 weeks ago are almost all open. They don't look quite as graceful as the pictures of GSP that I have seen, but they are nice all the same.

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Not much change except that I think I figured out what is wrong with my frogspawn.

 

From pictures I have seen and things I have read, it looks like my frag is infected with the dreaded brown jelly disease.

 

I moved the frag to a lower flow area after all traces of the jelly coating disappeared, but it was back this morning, so I moved it back into the brisk flow.

 

I wanted to do a waterchange last night, but the fates conspired against me, so I will will have to do it tonite.

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Well, the frogspawn is almost gone. People say that it sometimes comes back from the dead, but I don't think that is going to happen here. I may try an iodine dip if I can find some lugol's solution (the stuff at CVS has alcohol in it). I am certain that it was brown jelly disease, so I guess I never really had a chance.

 

I think that the brown jelly got a foothold through an NO3 spike which was caused by the death and slow decay of the GSP that was in there.

 

Yesterday, I used a dowel to move some of the GSP and it puffed out a dark brown "smoke" of decay into the water. I immediately pulled all pieces of it out and threw it in my rock tank and did a 50% waterchange on the display. I will leave the GSP in the rock tank and see if any polyps extend, but I am not holding out much hope.

 

Everything else in the tank (the new zoas, mushroom, Madracis, perc, snails, and hermits) are all doing fine, but it has been a really rough week.

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Oh man, I'm really sorry to hear about the gsp :tears: I was holding out hope after nanospoof told me that he had seen signs of life just the other day. I'm really sorry and will send you replacement gsp after things calm down for me here. Of course, NO heat packs next time ;) Talk to you soon and I really hope the frogspawns condition wasn't related to the gsp :(

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Oh man, I'm really sorry to hear about the gsp... I'm really sorry and will send you replacement gsp after things calm down for me here.

 

Don't sweat about it, I know it wasn't your fault. I also know that you just got done defending, so you let me know when is good for you.

 

... I really hope the frogspawns condition wasn't related to the gsp.

 

I think it didn't help matters, but brown jelly is an opportunistic disease, so it would never have come around if I hadn't been doing something wrong.

 

Too late now, since the 'spawn is pretty much gone (pardon the rhyme). Maybe I'll get another one after I move...

 

On a better note, all but two of the zoas you sent have opened up and look good. The last two holdouts look like they'll open sometime in the next couple days, so you were certainly right in attesting to their hardiness.

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Pic update:

 

I have star polyps coming out my ears. I bought these from an LFS a month ago.

 

star%20polyps%205-7-6%20p.jpg

 

 

 

These are the zoas that ecotoxlady sent me. You can see that they are doing quite well. I am not sure that they are happy with the 18w of light that I have, but I think they'll be fine until we move in July.

 

Also, notice the shroom. At different times of the day it is reaching like you see or flat against the rock. As first I thought it was reaching for light, but it hasn't tried to detach. One day I watched it go from flat to reaching in about 10 min because I piece of fish poo landed on it and it wanted to eat it.

 

zoas%20&%20shroom%205-7-6%20p.jpg

 

 

 

The cheato that Six sent me is going great; I have been turning it every day to make sure that it gets even light. I have noticed the growth of what I think is a sponge on one of the gulf LR pieces, but I forgot to get a pic and I have to get ready for church. I'll try to post one later today.

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Days later, here are some pics:

 

Because of the glare from the window, a current FTS in two parts (you can still see some glare from my FW planted tank in the top left of the 2nd one):

 

5-9-6%20FTS%20p.jpg

 

5-9-6%20FTS0%20p.jpg

 

 

 

And here are two pics of what I think might be a sponge (I also started a thread in the ID forum):

5-9-6%20sponge0%20p.jpg

 

5-9-6%20sponge%20p.jpg

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