Freshwater Minded Reef Equipment Questions

[jedimasterben]

I guess you're right. I didn't think of that. Maybe it's a similar resin?

 

I guess I just read that somewhere and it stuck:

Pretty sure I corrected him in that same thread, but I know I've done it dozens of times lol. The two might be similar in the end result, but definitely not the same. Boyd still hasn't answered my questions on what does it release into the water (as it is a exchange resin, not an adsorption resin).

[seabass]

I guess that's a good example on how myths get propagated. Anyways, I'll stop.

 

I rarely promote using the ChemiPure line of media. Not that I think it's bad, but I just don't feel it lasts as long as they say that it should.

[Clown79]

It doesn't last as long. I was using chemi pure blue and was spending more money on it because it didn't last as long as they state.

[jedimasterben]

I guess that's a good example on how myths get propagated. Anyways, I'll stop.

 

I rarely promote using the ChemiPure line of media. Not that I think it's bad, but I just don't feel it lasts as long as they say that it should.

Nothing that stays submerged in our tanks lasts longer than a couple of weeks before getting colonized by bacteria, so that's why most places say to use less media and just replace more often.

[Clown79]

Thats exactly why i stopped using it. I didn't see any difference from chemipure to matrix carbon and my other chosen media. I get to control amount and how often its changed. At a lost less cost.

[Teebo]

This is great info on ChemiPure, I saw so many people raving about it in their nanos I thought it was almost necessary. Maybe it will last its money worth in a smaller body of water?

 

I will certainly focus on my two main medias: Phosphate reduction & good quality disposable carbon.

 

The carbon vs. Purigen debate is still open, and I may start a thread seeing how I am so glued to my Purigen in freshwater.

 

@ jedimasterben - I have to ask, if media gets covered in bacteria (carbon/bio-media) it becomes less effective?

[jedimasterben]

This is great info on ChemiPure, I saw so many people raving about it in their nanos I thought it was almost necessary. Maybe it will last its money worth in a smaller body of water?

 

I will certainly focus on my two main medias: Phosphate reduction & good quality disposable carbon.

 

The carbon vs. Purigen debate is still open, and I may start a thread seeing how I am so glued to my Purigen in freshwater.

 

@ jedimasterben - I have to ask, if media gets covered in bacteria (carbon/bio-media) it becomes less effective?

It essentially will lose any effectiveness, as water will not be able to flow freely down to the media for adsorption.

 

I use ROX 0.8 carbon and Purigen in my system, together with a protein skimmer and lanthanum chloride dosing to keep phosphate in check, and after using that combo for a while, it makes the recommended list.

[Clown79]

Yes, all media gets exhausted. Some can be regenerated and others not so. I always rinse my media bags when i do waterchanges to remove any detritus buildup but I replace my media at least mnthly or more.

 

I used chemipure in 10g and 15g. I won't waste my money again. States it last for 3 mnths, no way does it. I replaced it monthly, sometimes more.

 

I never actually saw a difference using chemipure. It did nothing for the algae in my 10g. Switched back to Matrix carbon and phosguard. Problem solved, algae gone.

 

 

You can easily use a good carbon and purigen.

 

If you don't have phosphate issues, I would wait to use that media until needed.

[Teebo]

I think I will use carbon + Purigen than for maximum effectiveness.

 

I was thinking about just starting an 8.5 gallon frag tank with a live rock base, no sand yet but I could use a light diffuser to make a frag rack over the live rock which also brings the corals closer to the surface which is always good right? (light + air exchange)

 

This way I can collect my selection, I learned the hard way when aquascaping freshwater tanks that moving plants suck. I can know all my shapes and colors before I build my reef. Sound like a plan? I will also know what will thrive or die in my tank to arrange accordingly.

[jedimasterben]

Closer to the surface means nothing in water - the water will always be trying to reach equilibrium, so while physics will say that the water closest will be exchanging more oxygen, you also need to have significant water flow which will eliminate the differential between the top and the bottom. If your sandbed isn't moving and your corals aren't closing up, then you can have more flow. Moar flow = moar better

 

As for really just planning things out, keep in mind that an aquatic plant will grow hundreds to thousands of times faster than corals. Even some of the fastest growing soft corals don't hold a candle. With zoanthids, starting from a four or five polyp frag that is about 1/2" across, in a month's time you'd likely only have another polyp or at the most two, the next month roughly the same. Of course, corals grow in pretty much all directions, and with branching corals they're growing from each tip and each stalk, but physical growth will leave you disappointed if you expect plant growth speeds out of them lol.

 

Also keep in mind that different corals, even different specimens of the same species, can have different growth patterns, and still different they will respond individually to the specific flow pattern and light of your tank. You can plan and plan and plan and still things will go a different direction. This is something that just takes time in the hobby and experience with different corals to really grasp. A lot of things you can figure out just from reading, but others just take getting your hands salty

[Clown79]

Totally agree with jedimasterben.

 

No matter how much planning you do, the system does its natural thing. Each coral grows at different rates, lighting, water movement, water quality, and stability all effects the corals.

 

Flow is very important. Not only does it provide oxygen, moves food to coral, but it keeps detritus off corals as well as moving detritus to the filteration system.

[Teebo]

Well if there is any benefit to being closer to the surface in this tank it will be flow, since the HOB will provide all of it.

 

I am not expecting plant growth speeds, I just want it well thought out. Since corals are not cheap just collecting them alone will take time, I have no idea what colors I will ultimately end up with 6 months from now I could have a lot more of one color than another and wished I did not allow a coral to attach itself somewhere that I want to move. This is why a frag tank seems like a better choice right now, I am currently doing the same thing with a friend of mine who just got a freshwater tank. She does not have the money to go out and purchase $100 worth of diverse plants so I told her to just slowly buy plants as she can afford to and stick them anywhere. I will aquascape with what she has collected in a few months so I know all the colors and shapes we will have to work with.

[Clown79]

The only thing with keeping corals in a frag plug stand for long periods, is the space between corals. Corals need adequate space in between eachother, not only because some can sting others, some release toxins, some will overshadow others.

 

There is also the issue of certain corals placements. Not all require direct/high light or high flow areas. Each coral has different needs.

 

Corals can be moved, not all attach themselves, many have to be glued down.

[Teebo]

I thought the point of a frag plug is you can move it easily around a frag tank if you have a plug rack? On a flat rack everything gets equal light and I can move plugs closer or farther away from the HOB return to learn where it likes in the tank?

 

I will do some coral placement research, I assume all I can take on in this small nano is soft or mushrooms? I know anemones are out of the question as well as hard stony corals. Corals that consume low amounts of calcium would be good beginners I assume since I could get away with water changes using these corals.

[Clown79]

There are ppl who have pico tanks not just with softies.

If you are looking for an easier tank to maintain without or with minimal dosing in the future than softies are the way to go.

 

That being said, I had only softies and my parameters dropped in 3 days requiring dosing. Coralline algae, crabs, etc use up certain elements too.

 

Waterchanges replenish elements but if the tank is using those elements up before its Waterchange time, then most dose to maintain stability. In a small tank ppl may opt to do additional waterchanges instead.

 

I'm really not sure the purpose of the frag rack for keeping corals other than for acclimation and or fragging. After the corals have acclimated to the tank they are normally placed in their chosen spot. Maybe i'm not understanding your plans.

 

It sounds like you want to place them on the rack and leave them there for long periods?

 

 

Constantly moving corals isn't advised. It often irritates them or leads to issues.

 

With zoas, they will spread and attach to the frag rack, same with gsp, xenia will move and attach themselves if not overgrow all others.

[Teebo]

Good advice, I think I will be sticking with softies to start and progress from there.

 

My idea was leaving the frags in a rack for a decently long time, maybe 4 months. It will take a while to buy all my corals, you can fit a decent amount of money worth of corals in a 5 gallon before it is filled out.

 

What if my plugs on the rack are wide enough to allow 6 months of growth on them? I could frag the frag too, have a copy to place on the other side of the tank or something.

 

I can see there is a large difference between soft and hard corals, but that difference seems much more drastic than the difference between SPS and LPS. Besides for the polyp size are there other drastic visual or care differences?

[Clown79]

Every coral is different in growth, rate of growth, and in needs. Regardless of being lps, sps, or softies.

 

Xenia are softies, so are leathers- their needs are different, both grow differently and are effected by different things.

 

Each individual coral should be researched to provide it with its needs.

 

So your plan is to buy the coral, keep them on a plug until you get enough, then aquascape?

[Teebo]

I did do some further SPS and LPS research last night and apparently these are just hobby terms that were standardized way back in the day when the coral choices were very limited. Now with the hobby choices exploding those categories are outdated as their needs have becomes more independant, no longer based on appearance kind of as you said.

 

 

So your plan is to buy the coral, keep them on a plug until you get enough, then aquascape?

 

Yes that is exactly what I planned, do you think this is a bad idea still?

To relate to this in a freshwater minded way, my girlfriend wanted a tank like mine (of course what average person wouldn't). I told her what it is going to cost when all said and done (plants,tools,ferts,etc) and her jaw dropped. Just the cost of plants alone to fill a tank from a big box store is costly, so I setup a tank for her completely non-aquascaped, just a flat bed of EcoComplete. When I trim the stem plants in my own tanks I stick them in her tank clustering the types of plants in groups just trying to build her a variety of stock to aquascape with. When I have enough I will have her buy non-stem plants such as Crypts that I was not willing to uproot and propagate. This is the idea I was running on for getting into the reefing hobby, think about it even to someone who has never had real plants in their aquarium just looking at live plants in a non-aquascaped layout for 6 months will keep almost anyone happy. So that being said I would be perfectly happy staring at a frag tank in my possession for a while, slowly adding corals to the rack as I get spare cash. It will help me learn the corals and what they like, easy to move closer to the flow or higher in the tank I can have several racks. The live rock will be all on the bottom of the tank, but not only can I collect, learn, and grow out frags but I can monitor the live rock that comes and goes from my LFS to find the perfect pieces. If I buy my rock over several months I guarantee I will find the most unique nano-sized rocks completely covered in coraline, the rocks I see there are sometimes entirely purple I would say 90% coverage.

[Clown79]

Well lps and sps isn't an outdated term. It means large polyp stony and small polyp stony.

 

Looking at a coral will not really determine its individual needs, it does help determine what category they fall into.

 

Plants are a bit different than corals. The one thing they have in common is photosynthesis.

 

Certain corals will outgrow the rack quicker than others, some can't be near other corals at all.

 

You certainly can try it but do remember constantly moving corals isn't good.

 

Adding liverock later and periodically will pose an issue if you don't cure it before adding it to the tank. It will have die off and cause spikes, basically mini cycles. your liverock is the biological filteration, therefore you need a certain amount added at once to cycle the tank, grow good bacteria, to offer filteration to the tank.

[Teebo]

When I say rack, I mean the size of the entire tank. I would only move them to make them happy, then leave them until I aquascaped. Better than find out one does better on the edge of the tank than in the center before I attached it to the rock.

 

Interesting piece of information about swapping out live rock. So if I got 15 lbs of live rock from the LFS and put it all in my tank within 30min, I will have die off in my tank? Or if I decide to add a rock later that I also like that will cause swings? This is good to know.

 

In freshwater you cycle in a blackout, but saltwater if you blackout your rock will not get the light it needs to stay alive right?

 

Everyone should check this out, I have seen many coral reef documentaries but this is by far the best I have ever seen!

[Clown79]

For cycling most start off with a method. Either dry rock and ammonia dosing cycle or liverock cycle.

 

With liverock- add rock, sand(or barebottom) then water. Let the tank cycle which can take anywhere from a week to 6 weeks.

 

With dry rock- add rock and sand(or bare bottom)add water, then ammonia and bacteria dosing. Let the tank cycle, same duration.

 

Lights don't need to be on as there should be no livesrock in the tank during cycling.

 

During this time more research and coral planning is done.

 

If you add liverock later on to an established tank, if thatliverock isn't cured(cycled) it will cause a spike in the tank, which is another cycle.

 

The general method is adding sand and rock upon start up, this is how you cycle a tank.

 

the liverock is your biological filteration system.

[Teebo]

A lot of this is becoming redundant at this point.

 

This is confusing me, I thought live rock IS cured rock, if I grab a LIVE rock with coralline from my LFS that is obviously well past cycled if it is red.

 

Adding dry rock to an established tank is not going to cause a spike if there is nothing on it to die off its just going to silently cycle adding bacteria. Now I can see adding live rock to a non-cycled tank could be a problem with large spikes as die off occurs. Adding live rock to an established aquarium should be similar to dry rock only with a possibility of some die off due to lighting and water changes.

 

In freshwater if we used live substrate and decor from an established tank there would be no cycle at all it would be silent, just adding to the tank surfaces over time.

[Clown79]

Dry rock is different than liverock. If adding dry rock, it will be safe but will take time to be seeded by the liverock in the tank.

 

When you by liverock there is cured and uncured liverock. Coralline on it won't mean its cured. I've purchased liverock that was full of coralline but it still spiked a cycle. Its the only way I set up my tanks, is with liverock.

 

Most stores that have tanks full of liverock are full of detritus, its not clean and die off occurs which is what causes the cycle.

 

Dry rock alone won't start a cycle nor will anything grow on it. A cycle is caused by ammonia dosing and adding bacteria.

 

 

I wouldn't compare freshwater and saltwater, there is a lot of differences and thats where you may be getting confused.

[seabass]

If there is any dried/dead organic matter on it, dry rock can also cause an ammonia spike. I have gotten dry rock that, even after I power washed it clean, caused huge ammonia spikes. Dry doesn't mean free of organics.

 

However, there are clean sources of dry rock (like from Reef Cleaners) which don't cause ammonia spikes. This is the type of rock that Clown79 is talking about.

 

Live rock isn't the same as cured live rock. Also, shipping cured live rock causes die off, and it has to be re-cured. Some local stores sell "cured" live rock, but you should still cure it before adding it to a tank with livestock (just to be sure it doesn't cause an ammonia spike).

[Teebo]

Thanks for the explanation guys, it helped me!

 

I am undecided again about this tank haha. I am realizing by the time I build this thing in parts I could just easily buy an AIO system designed to make entry into the hobby easier. While hooded AIO tanks all seem to be more of a cube than a longer horizontal tank which is more preferred, I think I may give one a shot to be honest. The idea of a somewhat sealing hood will make evaporation much less of an issue if I go on vacation without the need for an ATO. I am between the BioCube14 and the JBJ12 can anyone give insight on any major differences? The JBJ seems a lot easier to find and possibly cheaper as well.