Ich in DT despite 8-week quarantine and treatment?

[dandelion]

Early September I purchased a clownfish to replace my female clown that underwent spontaneous combustion. Following every reefer's advice, I put him into my 10G QT, noticed stringy poop and white dots, dosed PraziPro at manufacturer's instructions and chloroquine to ~16ppm (double the dose suggested by the manufacturer of ich-shield). White dots went away. Finished 3 weeks of chloroquine bath then added carbon and changed water. 8 weeks later (5 weeks after course of chloroquine completed) clown looks healthy and has been eating like a pig, so Monday I transferred him to the DT. (My DT is 29G.)

Last night as I was feeding my fish in the DT I noticed my older clown was acting odd. Didn't eat. Fins were clamped. Thinking it's just clowns being clowns, I didn't do anything more than making a mental note to observe frequently. Today when I looked, there is stringy poop and 3 or 4 white dots on its belly.

Having the luxury of running a permanent QT, I removed carbon from the internal filter, dosed chloroquine to a concentration of about 19-20ppm, and connect the air pump back to sponge filter. (it was too noisy I unplugged the airpump but left the sponge filter submerged.) I caught the sick fish after a lot of effort, and transferred it into the QT.

I'm pretty darn sure it's the new clown that brought ich into my DT. There has been no addition of live stock, even corals or snails into my DT after buying the clown. Throughout the 8 weeks I followed a very strict protocol of only working on the QT last and not sharing equipments/tools. I don't see how I could have brought ich to my DT through wet hands or tools.

Anyways here are the question:

1. Apparently the initial course of chloroquine did not eradicate ich from the new clown. Should I continue to rely on chloroquine for treatment of my now sick old clown? Tank transfer and hyposalinity are not practical for me. I do have cupramine and copper test kit if it comes to it, though I would highly prefer not to dose copper because I do put invertebrates into my QT.
2. Now that ich is in my DT, I know the only way of eradicating it would be to go fishless for 3-4 months. However, I see no sign of stress or illness on my other fish. I think it will just do more harm than good right now to move them all into a 10G QT for treatment. If they never show symptom, should I even bother eradicating ich from my DT, or just live with it?
3. If I do end up having to treat all fish, would a 10G QT be enough for them all? I have 2 clowns, 1 royal gramma basslet, and 1 red firefish. My QT has 1 internal filter with ceramic rings, and a 2-sponge filter.
4. I have 2 anemones in the DT. Any tips on netting my firefish and RGB without having to remove rocks (and thus my anemones) from the tank?

[Kyl]

When I was setting to catch the wrasse from my 10g, I used black bridal tulle to cover all the rocks while he was out swimming. When trying to catch him, he'd just dart into a hole, but couldn't with the tulle acting as a giant barrier net.

 

Might be worth trying the same, it's very cheap stuff.

[dandelion]

That sounds like a very good idea. But with the shyness of my firefish he may dart into a hole before I even get to cover my rocks with the bridal tulle. I'll have to try that to know.

 

When I was setting to catch the wrasse from my 10g, I used black bridal tulle to cover all the rocks while he was out swimming. When trying to catch him, he'd just dart into a hole, but couldn't with the tulle acting as a giant barrier net.

 

Might be worth trying the same, it's very cheap stuff.

[Clown79]

Your display tank must be fishless for 8 weeks to rid it of ich or velvet. That means all fish must qt'd and treated.

 

As long as there is a fish in the dt, ich has a host to live on. The white spots is only part of the ich cycle and is only seen for a few days. Just because the spots are gone, doesn't mean ich actually is.

[Najay343]

Tagging into what Clown79 was saying, to truly treat the ich every single fish in your tank needs to come out and be treated. If you noticed the spot on the clown while it was in the DT then that means every fish in there has been exposed and most likely hosting Ich despite not showing any symptoms.

 

Sounds like you have a good idea of how it all works. I would reccomens just treating everything and getting it over with.

 

Remove all the fish, place in QT

Raise temp in DT to max tolerable for corals, higher temp reduced life span of free swimming ich

Run QT at 80+ degrees F or max temp fish will tolerate. dose with Seachem Cupramine, follow dosing instructions

To ensure erratication of ich leave the fish out of DT for 8 weeks.

Huge pain in the ass but if you treat all new fish in QT with copper it will ensure you never deal with ich again.

[dandelion]

The reason why I am hesitant about putting all fish in the QT is:

 

1. I don't know if the bio filter of my QT can handle all 4 fish at once. Not to mention oxygen level when medication is dosed. It's a 10G tank which really only has 8.5G water. If I absolutely have to treat all fish, I will probably move fish one by one day every week, provided they're not all showing symptoms at the same time.

2. If the other fish are fine and are fighting off the ich, why put them through the stress of treatment? I know ich is in my DT. But if they can stay healthy for a few weeks, chances are they can fight off this parasite for a good while unless my water parameters take a catastrophic downward spin. And if that is the case ich may only hasten their demise.

3. Don't get me wrong. Once I notice a change in any fish's behavior I will immediately move it to QT to treat. I'm just not sure if I should try to defuse this bomb now when this bomb can be delayed by keeping parameters good and fish healthy. I'm sure there're reefers who are not able to quarantine their fish but still manage to run a successful reef tank?

[braaap]

10 gallon is plenty for a QT for your fish. I had 3 clowns and 1 tang in my QT for 3 months. Did they like it? Probably not. Did it work. Yes. My DT was fallow for that time and it killed off the ICH I got from doing one order of fish from that Fishnuts site that went under.

[dandelion]

I think the more interesting question is how did you keep 3 clowns in a 10G?

 

10 gallon is plenty for a QT for your fish. I had 3 clowns and 1 tang in my QT for 3 months. Did they like it? Probably not. Did it work. Yes. My DT was fallow for that time and it killed off the ICH I got from doing one order of fish from that Fishnuts site that went under.

And another important question: Apparently chloroquine failed to eradicate ich on the new clown. Should I trust chloroquine anymore or should I dose the damn copper?

[Najay343]

I think the more interesting question is how did you keep 3 clowns in a 10G?

 

 

And another important question: Apparently chloroquine failed to eradicate ich on the new clown. Should I trust chloroquine anymore or should I dose the damn copper?

My clowns are fully matured an spawn every 3 weeks in my 10g I permanently have them, if If they were use to having a 3rd I don't think there would be a problem.

 

The only problem you will face treating fish one by one or only showing symptoms is that they will just be reintroduced once you put them back in the DT. The other fish that are able to fight it off are just fighting off the outbreaks of ich not ich itself. So the fish that keeps showing symptoms will prolly always show symptoms. My clowns were the only fish in my system that showed.

[ajmckay]

Bummer !!!

 

Not sure how it got into your dt... It sounds like you took all the right precautions so that's weird...

 

So you're in a tough spot - I would be doing the same thing as you.

 

If you're noticing signs of internal parasites you can dose prazi in the display. I have with no ill effects other than no skimmer or chem filtration.

 

If you see definitive signs of crypto imo you don't really have much of a choice but qt and treat. You can leave it for a day to observe ime but if it doesn't improve and they don't develop any resistance then treat any fish showing symptoms. Dismantling the rocks sucks but not a lot of options...

[dandelion]

Oh no by one by one I mean adding them to the WT one by one to treat. If I do the eradication I will eventually put all four fish into my QT and go fmthrough a full course of treatment. I just don't want to overload the QT's biological filter all at once. By adding fish once a week I'm hope the bacteria will get a chance to cope with the waste produced.

 

My clowns are fully matured an spawn every 3 weeks in my 10g I permanently have them, if If they were use to having a 3rd I don't think there would be a problem.

 

The only problem you will face treating fish one by one or only showing symptoms is that they will just be reintroduced once you put them back in the DT. The other fish that are able to fight it off are just fighting off the outbreaks of ich not ich itself. So the fish that keeps showing symptoms will prolly always show symptoms. My clowns were the only fish in my system that showed.

Yea I am really baffled as to how that happened. The only way would be through the new clown. But it webt through a full course of treatment and I only noticed white dots on him once, which is the second day I got him. If 3 weeks of chloroquine and 5 weeks of observation isn't enough I wonder if I have a resistant strain of ich.

 

Bummer !!!

 

Not sure how it got into your dt... It sounds like you took all the right precautions so that's weird...

 

So you're in a tough spot - I would be doing the same thing as you.

 

If you're noticing signs of internal parasites you can dose prazi in the display. I have with no ill effects other than no skimmer or chem filtration.

 

If you see definitive signs of crypto imo you don't really have much of a choice but qt and treat. You can leave it for a day to observe ime but if it doesn't improve and they don't develop any resistance then treat any fish showing symptoms. Dismantling the rocks sucks but not a lot of options...

[jack1978]

I think the more interesting question is how did you keep 3 clowns in a 10G?

 

And another important question: Apparently chloroquine failed to eradicate ich on the new clown. Should I trust chloroquine anymore or should I dose the damn copper?

I kept a tang, 2 clowns, YWG and possum wrasse in a 10 gallon qt dosing cupramine with no problem. I left all fish in there for 3 months. Only used pvc fittings, sponge filter power head and a heater.

 

Did a 50% wc once a week. Redosed and tested to make sure copper levels were where they had to be.....it always was. Worked great, super easy.

 

Treat everyone of your fish at the same time, or don't bother.

[dandelion]

I don't think my clown will make it. ? It is now lying on the quarantine tank bottom struggling to stay upright. From what I have read on this forum it sounds like most clowns who ever get to this point wouldn't make it. ?

 

I kept a tang, 2 clowns, YWG and possum wrasse in a 10 gallon qt dosing cupramine with no problem. I left all fish in there for 3 months. Only used pvc fittings, sponge filter power head and a heater.

 

Did a 50% wc once a week. Redosed and tested to make sure copper levels were where they had to be.....it always was. Worked great, super easy.

 

Treat everyone of your fish at the same time, or don't bother.

[Clown79]

If one has ich, any fish in the tank can and most likely has it.

 

The absolute only way to irradicate ich from the dt is it HAS to go fishless for 8 weeks.

 

Ich has a few stages, just cause you don't see it, doesn't mean its not there. The white spots are the first stage, then they are free swimming.

 

As long as you keep fish in the dt- you keep ich going. It needs a host and the host is the fish. The longer you wait, the better chance of reoccurring illness in the fish.

[Clown79]

Treating each fish each week treats the fish, it doesn't get rid of the parasite in the water, substrate, on corals. Starving the parasite by not having fish in the tank is the only method that works.

 

You should read this to get a better understanding as to why removing 1 fish at a time for treatment and reintroduction to the dt won't work. If anything it will stress out the fish further and make it even more susceptible to the parasite still in the dt.

 

http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2003-08/sp/

[dandelion]

No I think you misunderstood me. I meant moving fish into QT one by one and keep them there until the DT goes fishless for 8+ weeks. Reintroduction into DT doesn't happen until after the fishless period.

 

 

Treating each fish each week treats the fish, it doesn't get rid of the parasite in the water, substrate, on corals. Starving the parasite by not having fish in the tank is the only method that works.

You should read this to get a better understanding as to why removing 1 fish at a time for treatment and reintroduction to the dt won't work. If anything it will stress out the fish further and make it even more susceptible to the parasite still in the dt.

http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2003-08/sp/

[ajmckay]

Any updates? How are the remaining fish doing?

[dandelion]

I left them in the DT because they're business as usual. Happy, fat, eating and wanting more. I'm starting to wonder if it really was ich that I saw or just some stuff stuck on the belly of the sick clown. It was probably a good idea to take it out before it died and disappeared again. Last time that happened I had an algae issue.

 

I understand there's probably ich in my DT and nothing is going to eradicate it unless I go fishless. I just can't justify treating when other fish are doing absolutely fine. If they look sick treating would be a no-brainer. But at this point I think moving them to QT and treating will just do more harm than good.

 

Any updates? How are the remaining fish doing?

[ajmckay]

I left them in the DT because they're business as usual. Happy, fat, eating and wanting more. I'm starting to wonder if it really was ich that I saw or just some stuff stuck on the belly of the sick clown. It was probably a good idea to take it out before it died and disappeared again. Last time that happened I had an algae issue.

 

I understand there's probably ich in my DT and nothing is going to eradicate it unless I go fishless. I just can't justify treating when other fish are doing absolutely fine. If they look sick treating would be a no-brainer. But at this point I think moving them to QT and treating will just do more harm than good.

 

Agree 100%... Glad the remaining fish are doing okay!

 

I have a really odd situation with my Potters angel that I got a little over a month ago... Had obvious parasites but did not do well in QT. It's in the DT but so far no symptoms on other fish. The Potters isn't doing well though. To this day I haven't seen it eat a single bite. It's not doing well though - basically just hovers in a corner near the bottom. It's swimming and not lying on the sand or anything - but I have no clue what to do at this point. QT is out of the picture. It won't eat any of the wide variety of foods I've been offering. My tank has plenty of detritus and algae though. Who knows... Sometimes weird stuff happens... I'm sure there's a reason it's acting like this - but I don't know what it is.

[Clown79]

I must have misread. I did think you were going to treat each individually.

 

I agree. If they aren't having any symptoms, qt is enough. I wouldn't medicate either if its not necessary.

 

In the event there was ich in the dt, going fishless will kill it and you prevent any other fish getting sick.

 

Just remember, don't use anything from the dt in the qt.

 

 

As for the potters, that is odd behavior, especially with no outward symptoms. I wonder why its not eating? Internal Bacterial issue?