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Embarrassed, Need Advice


Astinus

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I was hesitant to drop $170+ dollars on an RODI too, but the bigger cost is truly not knowing. An LFS you like is a great thing, but with your own water you know what you've got for sure. LFS employees come and go, things happen that you couldn't possible imagine and in the long run it's cheaper anyways. Even on a small tank. I called up BRS and described my situation, bought their 75gpd system and got some of these: https://www.walmart.com/ip/Reliance-Aqua-Tainer-Water-Container-7-Gallon-9410-03/872426?wmlspartner=wlpa&selectedSellerId=0&wl13=697&adid=22222222238260394597&wl0=&wl1=g&wl2=m&wl3=108838446870&wl4=pla-50606198695&wl5=9012354&wl6=&wl7=&wl8=&wl9=pla&wl10=8175035&wl11=local&wl12=872426&wl13=697&veh=sem so I can make approx 25 gallons at a time on a Sunday and it saves your RODI consumables to make it all at once like that. I did all the math and it pays out in 2 years

for me, but I only use about 8 gallons per week for my situation - on 3 small tanks. That's compared to distilled and good RODI is definitely superior to that.

 

Your LFS is not mine. So I can't say for sure, but I've never seen it for less than 50¢ per gal at any LFS I've been to and I have 5 I frequent. That would be a 34 month period to return for me. But I personally just want to know the water I start with is 0.0ppm because there is nothing that is more important, cost-effective and easy than making your own water.

 

Picking a salt you can count on to be consistent is much harder, but that's a whole other conversation.

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And make water on your schedule and for emergency so you don't have to use tap.

 

Tonight is one of those nights I am glad I have my own RO/DI system. I had an issue with a tank and found myself needing 15 gallons of water ASAP, without the unit, I would have been up the creek since all the stores are closed.

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Instant Ocean is a good reliable salt. Its been in buisness a long time and supplies a lot of the big public aquariums. I have used both the regular and more recently the reef crystals for probably 15 years and never had an incident and its a good value to boot.

 

I also doubt that the higher salinity caused the deaths. I maintenanced folks tanks that were neglected and I saw salinities much higher than that with happy swimming fish.

 

Astinus, I am sorry for the trouble you are experiencing. I know it can be discouraging. Just keep working at bringing your parameters into a proper range slowly and then get yourself a realistic but workable maintenance routine. Don't beat yourself up, things happen. The damsels may have died regardless. The first 2 weeks you add any fish is always iffy. After that they usually can live for years. You will get things back on track and then you can chalk this up as a learning experience.

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We're all rooting for you Mike. We know you can bring it back. Try to get over your fear of testing your water yourself-after you do it a few times you will get a better sense of the color differences. I don't make my own water. I trust my LFS. Talk to yours and ask them what their RO/DI unit maintenance routine is. Also, I use real natural ocean water that my LFS collects and runs through uv sterilizers. Ask your lfs about that. Still hoping to get over there weekend of Nov. 2

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Okay...So I discovered "MY" problem and all mine.

I had been using windex sprayed away from tank and onto paper towel.

BIG BAD IDEA/MISTAKE!!!!

Brandy (Owner of LFS), Told me to only use RO/DI to wipe down my glass.

I Brought water sample to test..

Nitrates 0

Ca 490

KH 11 (197)

Phos...0.25

Salinity...1.023

Just out of curiosity I asked Brandy to do an Ammonia Test...

F*** Lime Green Test Result...

I just did a 5 gallon SW Change and Dosed with Prime.

I will keep using prime at least for the next 7 days.

 

I know some folks don't trust their LFS. I even brought up the question of their

RO/DI and Salt water. They use the same salt water for all their tanks. And they are gorgeous (Display Tanks).

I asked about what they use for their salt mix. They use IO, Reef Crystals, I can't think of the other 2 brands, but they are well known and used throughout our forums, so, I really feel that I am safe using them for my needs.

Brandy even let me borrow a Jug and Gave me the SW for free.

 

Dawn and Penny, TY so much for the encouragement!

Now that I truly know the monster I am fighting, I can come out the back end much the wiser.

 

Just now, after I drained 5 gallons, I manually pulled off some Algae that was growing, I picked up my Zoas (Not glued down)

and removed CRAP..Algae. I have a Picture I will post soon in this thread.

I am still fighting the damn Aiptasia here and there..It Freakin' sux! I have some growing in my damned back chamber where I can't quite reach.

 

To think our tank was once so nice looking and things seemed happy to now looking shabby.

So far we lost our beautiful Bubble Coral (I have our LFS looking for another)

A Flower Pot? IDK if a Goniopora is the same. But lost that nice Coral to an infestation of Aiptasia :rant::furious:

It looks like our GSP isn't fairing to well...

Lost The RBTA, combination of events..Over active clown and then the sudden tank issue.

Our Pink Tube Anem is hanging in there..I am sure we lost our Feather Duster.

But stll have a chit ton of the white Tube worms!

Anyways..so there is the bad and ugly update but posted with some hope!

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I use windex sprayed on a paper towel all the time. I don't spray it anywhere near the tank so I'm not sure that would've caused an ammonia spike. Are all fish accounted for? Has one died in the rocks? Are any snails dead in the tank that are rotting?

Also, I would hold off adding anything to the tank - corals, fish, inverts - until you are 100% certain things are stable. Otherwise in my opinion, it's just throwing money away. Give your tank a few weeks to recover. See if you can turn around the corals you have left. If you put another bubble coral in before things are stable, it could just go down hill again. Someone asked a good question. You mentioned you were dosing 2 part. How were you determining how much to dose?

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Rachel, Definately waiting before adding ANYTHING until things are stable and have no ammonia.

I haven't dosed 2 part for the past 3 days..I will be testing parameters tomorrow.

On Monday I will ask the LFS to test again. I need to bring their jug back, so, no issue.

I am lucky that the store is about 3 miles down the road, if that.

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Rachel, Definately waiting before adding ANYTHING until things are stable and have no ammonia.

I haven't dosed 2 part for the past 3 days..I will be testing parameters tomorrow.

On Monday I will ask the LFS to test again. I need to bring their jug back, so, no issue.

I am lucky that the store is about 3 miles down the road, if that.

I wouldn't start dosing two part until you're testing regularly to know if you need to. It's one of those things I think that you really need to be diligent on with testing so you can figure out if your tank actually needs it. Without a ton of corals, waterchanges should be able to replace calcium, alk and trace elements.

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Your LFS runs multiple huge water volume system with giant skimmers and filtration much much bigger than what you have in a nano. Their water quality can fluctuate, and it won't affect their tanks much. It only takes a new employee or someone to make a mistake and mess up their saltwater mix. Even if their water is 100% perfect, 24/7, 365 days a year, you are relying on their water parameters instead of matching to what your tank has and what you want it to be. I know in my previous nano tank, I was running 7 dkh alk but IO Reef Crystals mix to 11 dkh. So I had to switch to a mix of regular IO and IO Reef Crystals to match my tank. I can do that because I control my water source. How can you stabilize your parameters if you can't control the parameters? IMO, running your own RODI and regularly doing your own tests are two huge factors to success in this hobby.


Here's a great example:

 

Your first post said your LFS tested your water to be:

Salinity = 1.025

Nitrate = below 5 (API Tests)

Cal =560

KH = 11

Now, it is:

Nitrates 0

Ca 490

KH 11 (197)

Phos...0.25

Salinity...1.023

That's a big difference in results in just 3 days and opposite of stabilizing your parameters. Is it the same person running the test with the same test kit? Are they being very careful in interpreting the results? Again, those are all variables that you are relying on someone else to be diligent about.

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I wouldn't start dosing two part until you're testing regularly to know if you need to. It's one of those things I think that you really need to be diligent on with testing so you can figure out if your tank actually needs it. Without a ton of corals, waterchanges should be able to replace calcium, alk and trace elements.

Agreed...I definitely need to up my "Husbandry"!

I also agree that with frequent water changes and with my small coral load, I shouldn't really need to dose, unless my testing indicates it.

 

Ninja, I have been visiting this LFS since I moved to Florida in Nov of 2009. Hadn't been able to make a purchase until Feb 2016.

I see the owners and 1 employee all the time. Same employee.

As Rachel and others have mentioned, I need to up my game plan and get used to testing CA and KH.

TY all :)

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I'm not trying to be an alarmist, but if you have that much ammonia in your tank that it turned bright green, you need to do something about it immediately. That's not something you can wait on to level out since you have livestock in there. I highly highly doubt it was the windex unless you sprayed it on the glass and a bunch got in the tank. With that size tank, it wouldn't be registering that level of ammonia. So I think you 1. Need to get some prime in that tank to detoxify the ammonia and 2. Need to figure out the source of the ammonia. Do you have any fish in there?

Sorry, just read you did dose with prime.

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I'm not trying to be an alarmist, but if you have that much ammonia in your tank that it turned bright green, you need to do something about it immediately. That's not something you can wait on to level out since you have livestock in there. I highly highly doubt it was the windex unless you sprayed it on the glass and a bunch got in the tank. With that size tank, it wouldn't be registering that level of ammonia. So I think you 1. Need to get some prime in that tank to detoxify the ammonia and 2. Need to figure out the source of the ammonia. Do you have any fish in there?

Sorry, just read you did dose with prime.

Understandable Rachel :) I AM ALARMED. I will be dosing Prime for the next week.

We do have 3 Fish in tank now. The only thing I can think of that might have caused such an ammonia spike would be the Bubble Coral Loss. I did find, over the 2 week period, 2 Emerald Crabs and of course the fish deaths. But, I pulled them out immediately.

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I agree with Stella. Been using windex on my tanks since 2007, sprayed nowhere near the tanks but I have never had an issue.

 

Unless you spray the windex directly near the tank, the ammonia source is most likely from something else. Did something die in the rocks?

 

 

I also agree with Ninja, your lfs sound better than alot of them but clearly they use different salt on a regular basis which could lead to inconsistent parameters as each brand isn't the same.

 

The numbers you posted are already different. It only takes 1 lazy or peeved employee to screw things up.

 

I buy my own distilled or RO water and mix my own salt because I like to have complete control over my system.

 

I wouldn't suggest dosing right away.

 

I'd start making your own water change water, test the parameters. Do a waterchange and test after. Then test the next day. You need to see how much your system depletes in order to properly dose.

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Understandable Rachel :) I AM ALARMED. I will be dosing Prime for the next week.

We do have 3 Fish in tank now. The only thing I can think of that might have caused such an ammonia spike would be the Bubble Coral Loss. I did find, over the 2 week period, 2 Emerald Crabs and of course the fish deaths. But, I pulled them out immediately.

 

The thing is, without regular testing of ammonia and your parameters, dosing prime really isn't going to help you beyond keeping your fish alive in the short term. If you're going to dose prime, you should be testing daily to see if the ammonia is decreasing or not so you can then figure out what is causing the problem. I'm 99% certain it isn't windex if you sprayed it on a paper towel out of range from the tank. disclaimer: I don't know how prime impacts testing of ammonia. I know it detoxifies it, but the API test measures all ammonia, not just toxic ammonia.

 

I am going to say a few things that may sound harsh, that I'm sure you won't like and might get others kinda ticked at me. You need to test. You need to control your water source. you need to get on a regular maintenance schedule. Immediately. All these things are paramount to turning your tank around. You got a lot of great advice from others when you first started having trouble with your bubble coral. At that same time, you indicated you lost your bubble tip anemone that you had had for months and your tube nem bailed from its tube. There was something going on at that time and you did get a lot of good advice that said to test and you indicated you would up your maintenance routine. I know you added 5 fish at once: You turned in the one clown you had and then added 4 damsels and a dotty back. this could have overwhelmed your biofilter. However, you were already having problems at that time with the bubble and some other things.

 

Your parameters have been fluctuating and I can't make sense of them. A couple days ago, you mentioned calcium, alkalinity and magnesium were off the charts high. Alk still looks high, but calcium is in the 400's and your nitrates dropped significantly in a short amount of time. I think you also said that your phosphates were at 2 a few days ago. Now they're .25. That is a huge drop in a very short amount of time. Fluctuations like this will impact the life in your tank and you need to get them stabilized. The only way to do that is to know exactly what is going on and into your tank. I know you trust your LFS, but the fact that they use different salt mixes is concerning. Like (I think) Ninja said, each salt mixes differently. If one is mixing at 11 dkh and another at 7, this means you're changing parameters with each water change. The goal should be consistency. Buy RODI water and/or steam distilled at the grocery and mix up your own salt. Buy boxed salt water.

 

So here's my challenge to you: Come up with a schedule and write it down or use excel. Take 20-30 minutes every sunday and do a water change. Make that your water change day. Test before the change. Testing takes 10-15 minutes. Then test mid-week (Wednesday) to make sure things are stabilizing. Set up a schedule for feeding - feed at the same time each day for a while. Don't add any more livestock, don't change your schedule, until you get things under control.

 

Get comfortable with testing and don't rely on others to do the work for you - whether it is testing, mixing up your salt water, whatever. Know exactly what is going INTO your tank (the type of salt water, what the salinity is, what the parameters are) and know what is going on in your tank (temp, salinity, calcium, nitrates, alk, magnesium, phosphates - and ammonia & nitrites until you are certain these are under control).

 

If you truly want a successful reef tank, then you need to do the work. It isn't easy and it takes time. However, by starting this off right and sticking to a schedule, you will be sure to establish a husbandry routine that works for you. Test yourself. I don't know anyone that has success in this hobby that doesn't understand and isn't comfortable with testing and rely on others to do it for them.

 

Once things are running smoothly and are STABLE, then reevaluate your maintenance schedule. You might not need to test twice a week. You might need to start dosing. But until things are stable, don't take shortcuts. The best investments you can make right now in your tank are: your time learning the basic techniques of husbandry and in minimal equipment to keep things stable (ATO, etc.). TRACK your testing results. Write them down so you have a record of what is happening and when. Keep track of everything and stick to the schedule.

 

If this is not feasible, then I would say you need to reevaluate if you want a reef tank. Maybe a FOWLR is the right avenue. Although, you still need to keep track of things - it's not a maintenance-free option. But corals are tougher to keep happy and thriving than fish in my opinion. Also, when you start adding livestock, start with easier things such as some soft corals. Don't go for the bubble corals, euphyllia, goniopora/flowerpot which take more care. Get those things thriving first then move on to LPS.

 

There are people in this hobby that don't test regularly, that don't do water changes regularly and have great success. However, they know the basics and they know their tank is at a stable point and they know what to look for if things start going south. The corners shouldn't be cut in the beginning.

 

Again, be careful trusting your LFS. I know you feel they are knowledgeable. But some of the things that they have recommended to you are suspect to me. When your fish had ich, they recommended a cleaner shrimp to take care of the ich. That's not a good solution. They recommended a fox face lo for a 29 gallon tank when you wanted to get rid of some algae. They didn't warn you that 4 damsels and a dotty back introduced into a 29 gallon tank at once time could cause issues and possibly stress the fish out. They may be knowledgable. They may have the best intentions. But their maintenance of their tanks is much different than yours. They maintain a large system and as others have noted, that is much different than maintaining a 29 gallon tank. If they change salt, it won't have a significant impact on their system. If you use salt that is off a few points in salinity or has different calcium or alk levels, it could cause some issues.

 

So, don't be embarrassed, but take action and take control of your tank.

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Wow Rachel, TY so much for taking the time to write all that up for me.

I agree. I have been totally lax and complacent. I should have known better to add such a bio-load all at once.

Regarding the Foxface, which was small, 2-3 inches? I know the Larger Clown was the culprit. Wouldn't allow the FF out and about.

LFS thought that because of it's stinging spines would have held off the FF.

I accept ur challenge, Rachel. I have to live up to my end of the bargain to have a Happy, healthy Reef.

That means, as u have said as well as others, to get into a routine and do the "Work".

 

Ur Comment here,

"I am going to say a few things that may sound harsh, that I'm sure you won't like and might get others kinda ticked at me."

I am a believer of, "If the truth hurts, it must be true" That does not mean ur comment hurt! BUT! It is Truth.

U are coming from experience and I value that. So, I again TY!!

For now, No more Bio-load and no more corals for now...not until I have this tank under control and I am into a habit of doing the

Water changes and testing. :flower:

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Question...If I just did a 5 gal Water Change yesterday, when should I do another?

I was thinking maybe Tuesday or Wednesday.

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Question...If I just did a 5 gal Water Change yesterday, when should I do another?

I was thinking maybe Tuesday or Wednesday.

 

It really depends on what your testing says. And you want to make sure the water is consistent in salinity, alk and calcium at the very least.

 

Just to clarify: the problem with the foxface lo I had wasn't that it died. As Dawn mentioned, the first two weeks are very touch and go for new inhabitants. The problem I have is that regardless of whether the fish was 2-3 inches or not, that fish really should be in a 100+ gallon tank (live aquaria rates it for 125 gallon+) . Even if it is young, fish like that need space or they get stressed - and they grow fast. I just don't think it was a good recommendation at all and I was just using that as an example to do your own research rather than just relying on the fish store, even if they have the best intentions. Recently, I was at my LFS and wanted to get a goby for my dad's 10 gallon. The 10 has two clowns already and the owner wouldn't sell me a goby because he felt that a 10 gallon shouldn't have more than two fish. In my opinion, they set you up for failure in that regard - even before you brought it home. A 29 gallon cube is no where near big enough to keep a foxface happy. My one spot (rated for a 75 gallon+ tank by Live Aquaria) is still pretty small (about 3") and I can't see him being happy in a smaller cube. The one spots stay smaller than the lo. So that was why I questioned the advice. Not because you lost the fish.

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Again, I TY Rachel. I also look at LA for tank size recommendations. I really should have known better.

Moving forward, I plan on starting a Thread here, somewhere to document my parameters.

Our LFS is closed today, however there is a Petsmart (not happy with them) and a Pet Supermarket nearby.

I will get an Ammonia test kit and some Salt...Prolly IO, I have used IO way back in '07 and I like the way it mixes.

Again, I shall keep you posted.

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Pet smart is absolutely fine for things like salt and test kits etc. good luck! And you can use your build thread to post parameters. I honestly use a notebook I keep in my tank stand and write them down along with the date of testing.

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Pet smart is absolutely fine for things like salt and test kits etc. good luck! And you can use your build thread to post parameters. I honestly use a notebook I keep in my tank stand and write them down along with the date of testing.

 

I agree completely about keeping a notebook and writing down everything you do to your tank. I recently started doing this religiously. I also started more routine testing of calcium, alkalinity, phosphorous, and magnesium. I then document how much of something that I may have needed to dose, and retest either several hours later or the next day and document those results. In the short term I am spending quite a bit on test kits, but in the long term I am learning the needs of my tank and keeping my parameters in check on an almost daily basis. Eventually, when I am confident that I am on a good dosing schedule I will cut the testing down to once or twice a week, and even less for magnesium and phosphorous. Eventually I will get an auto loser, but by then I will feel that I'm ahead of the game because I will know what my tank needs. I recognize now that every time I add or take something out, the needs of the tank may change and I can adapt accordingly.

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I really feel that I am getting great advice and I will follow through!

Rachel and Penny, u both have done so much to help me since we (Shar & I) started this venture.

I admit that I was remiss in taking care of things properly. When the Bubble Coral started to go, I did testing and took samples to lfs to,

in my mind, to put me at ease. However, lfs only tests for Nitrates, Ca/kh and salinity (Refractometer). I use a Hydrometer, which in my opinion is good, I know it isn't as exact as a refractometer, but a ballpark is good.

I Did pick up a Nyos MG test. I used it once so far and will continue to do so. It is a learning process.

I just picked up an API Ammonia Test..I am not sure, but have I read somewhere in the forums that API isn't the greatest for that test?

As for a "Journal", I lose things. It would be easier to keep a log in my build thread.

 

I know yesterday I said I was going to post a picture of, what looked like a Macro-algae, but, I google Bryopsis, and it looked very similar to what I had growing and Pulled it out. It was isolated to my Zoas, so that was easy.

 

Pics

oZrjOE.jpg

 

Ignore that Aiptasia! :rant:

iY3uls.jpg

 

MtGkUC.jpg

 

Do u folks know or think that my use of Aiptasia-X could cause some of my tank issues? I use it very sparingly.

I am not try to deflect my guilt of neglecting my husbandry.

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You've got this, Astinus :flower:. Lots of great advice here!!!!

 

Something that works phenomenally, and maybe a luxury, but totally worth it LOL......

 

http://www.marinedepot.com/Kent_Marine_Acrylic_Glass_Cleaner_Polisher_8oz_Glass_Acrylic_Cleaners_for_Saltwater_Aquariums-Kent_Marine-KM00944-FIMTEC-vi.html

 

I'm not kidding when I say it's the best thing since sliced bread :lol:.

I really appreciate the link and Support Gena. TY for the :flower:

 

Off to test the Water....Wish me luck in regards to trusting that I am doing the tests (CA/KH) correctly.

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I use api test kits for ammonia, nitrites and nitrates. Everything else I use either red sea or salifert. Magnesium is probably the the least important of parameters to check on frequent basis. Temperature, Salinity and Alkalinity stability are the most crucial to your inhabitants, followed closely by calcium. Not that magnesium isn't important, it is. It actually helps to stabilize alkalinity and calcium, it just shouldn't be your priority if you have to choose because of time constraints or budget or whatever it is. Make sure your hydrometer is kept clean and has no residual salt built up as that will affect your readings.

 

As for that zoa rock with what certainly looks like bryopsis-Aaaggghhhh! I'm sorry my friend. Best advise I can give on that is to cut/break that entire section of the rock away, even if it means that you may lose some of your beautiful zoas. treat the fresh edge with straight peroxide and let it sit for 3-4 minutes (your other zoas will be fine out of water for that period) Rinse with fresh RO/DI and then replace in tank. Hopefully it (the bryopsis) isn't anywhere else in the tank. Take care of it NOW! And I mean right now! :rant:

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