ESV Salt Mix System Experiences / Advice

[crawdads57]

I'm going to try this salt "mix system." I just can't make myself be happy with the results I get from my current salt, though I really did try. I have some questions for anyone out there that is currently using ESV. I have also sent ESV the same questions, but haven't received a response. ***Bob did respond shortly after I posted this***

 

1) What should the big three be if I follow the directions exactly? I see different numbers out there, but all the forum posts I see that contain numbers are at least a few years old, and I do not see any stated parameters on the ESV website. I found this: 450 ppm Calcium • 3.25 meq/L Alkalinity • 1400 ppm Magnesium, and that would be close enough for my use if I can rely on the product to be consistent from one purchase to the next. I have a highly accurate digital scale that I will use to do the weight-based measurements.

2) I do not need 500ppm Ca. I see some old posts (from like 2010) saying that 500 Ca is a common result. I realize that ESV does not recommend altering the formulation, but I see that several people out there are (were) doing so. What is in liquid part A (part 3) besides Ca? What else am I losing if I under-dose this component?

3) What is in liquid part B (part 4), besides bicarbonates, etc. related to Alk? What else am I losing if I under-dose this component?

I am asking what I am losing in addition to Ca/Alk because I am perfectly willing and able to add additional trace supplements to the mix if that's what I have to do to keep from blowing up my Alk level. I was looking closely at the ESV trace supplements also, I am in need of a trace element supplement that I can trust anyways.

All I really want is a reliable salt mix that gives me close to these parameters: Ca: ~430, Alk: ~8.25 (2.96), Mg: ~1320. This is for a few nano tanks where I do WCs twice weekly, so I need a salt mix that is reliably consistent in smaller batches. I mix enough for a week's worth of WCs at a time: 8 gallons total - 4 gallons each in two, 5-gallon buckets. I prefer not to dose 2 part or other supplements in these small aquariums directly, I would rather do frequent WCs and supplement that way, but that's just my preferred method.

[crawdads57]

So no takers here, but I did get a response from ESV. I also got the salt mix today and mixed up a gallon to test using the exact directions. Then I altered it a bit and retested. I'm going to hone in on this one more time and post all 3 sets of formulas / results and post all at once. I'm very happy with what I got for test results so far.

 

I've used IO, RC, DD and Neomarine. I can at least say that ESV mixes the fastest and cleanest. Yeah, it's a little more work, but nothing like what I was having to do with DD and Neomarine just to get them up to real numbers. I didn't test IO and RC, that's before I tried to keep any real coral. DD and Neomarine were a struggle for me, I tested and supplemented them until I was blue in the face, just to get them in the neighborhood of stated parameters. ESV is different. Basically it is a formula for supplementing your mix before you do your water change, but with a clear starting point. And some rules, as you can see from the reply I got:

 

"Thanks for using our salt mix and I think you'll be happy with the consistency from batch to batch. At 34 ppt salinity, you are correct with the numbers for calcium, magnesium, and alkalinity. When you mix up your first batch be sure to hold out 10% of the RO/DI water as stated on our instruction sheet. It's always easier to add RO/DI to cut back on salinity rather than to figure out how much of each component to add to increase salinity. Due to the proprietary nature of some of the formulation, I can't divulge where certain ions are located with regards to the liquid components, but can tell you the Comp A supplies all the calcium and the portion of magnesium not supplied by the dry magnesium sulfate, and the Comp B liquid provides the alkalinity plus some other ions. If one alters the amount of these liquid components then yes, these other ions will also deviate. My guess is a 10% lowering of either component will still result in an acceptable mix because these other ions will only drop by 10%. I can not make any guarantee's the mix will be suitable for all uses if altered however and leave that decision to the individual aquarist. If you're testing for calcium, magnesium, alkalinity, potassium, and using individual additives to tweak any of those deficiencies, you'll probably be fine if you don't reduce the liquid components by more than 10%. I hope this info helps and thanks again for using our products!

 

Best Regards,

 

Bob Stark

 

President

 

ESV Aquarium Products Inc."

 

My experience so far is that the minus 10% RODI is no kidding, but I'll post my results later.

 

Anyone else want to weigh in? I just feel way more comfortable testing the water I'm using for water changes thoroughly rather than adding stuff directly to my tanks. They're small tanks. Anyone else thinking like that? Because that's what this really comes down to for me.

[RayWhisperer]

I've used it in the past. I really liked it for consistency. I never altered any of the mix, though. As far as what everything measured after mixing, I can't remember. I do remember liking the numbers, though.

[crawdads57]

Cool, thanks. I'll post numbers tomorrow so if someone is looking they can at least see something more current. Everything I was able to hunt down was from several years ago.

 

Caveat, my numbers being my numbers. They're good enough for me but I'm not saying these numbers are the end all. I get very consistent numbers on my tests and they're consistent with the numbers I get from my few LFSs but they're using the same test kits I am.

 

Had a minor disagreement with a salt manufacturer about the validity of home tests kits, but we can only do what we can do with what is available and what is affordable. Too bad we can't find a real standard for testing so that the manufacturers have to make their numbers. Guess we could get the FDA on it, but then I would have to leave the hobby. And puke.

[Cintax]

ESV B-Ionic 4-part is my favourite salt mix. I loved it when I was using it but it is just too hard to get a hold of where I live. That's too bad because I really preferred it over the Reef Crystals I am now using (because they are easy to get). It mixes clean and clear, you can mix up any amount on the spot. I found that the mix was consistent if I was. It's fantastic stuff.

[crawdads57]

Marine Depot has had it in stock since I got started again, so since March at least. This is just the first time I bought it, but I guess they don't ship to Canada?

[Cintax]

I priced out the 100 gallon mix and shipping was $94.14 USD (~$127 CDN) to my house. Somehow it is only $4.99 to send it to my cousins place in Michigan though.

[crawdads57]

Here are my results and a full explanation of my experiment. I will also post what I plan to do this weekend and then the results I get next week. That's all I plan to post unless I get a surprise sometime down the road. Again, these are (of course) just my test results. I'm confident in the consistency of how I do these tests and I have had my results double checked by a few LFSs previously (on other salt mixes - not ESV).

 

Just like I always do on a first batch, I double tested everything at least once. If the results were the same, I kept them. In the rare instance that one of the 2 tests do not agree within a narrow margin I retest again (or if I saw a result that did not make sense). On these tests I did not test anything more than twice until I retested this morning - more on that below.

 

I gave sufficient time for the dry components to each dissolve completely with a 100gph pump running in the bucket. 15 minutes for the NaCl and 10 minutes for the Mg; then at least one minute for the liquid parts. Temp was initially 76* F.

 

I followed the instructions exactly to the gram, the water is the only thing I cannot weigh with precision, so I used cups: 15 cups plus 2/3rds of a cup. (instructions say 0.98 gallons and 15.66 cups is very close but not perfect).

 

91 grams of NaCl, 25 grams of Mag salt, 49 grams of liquid A (Ca), 21 grams of liquid B (Alk).

 

1st round of tests on ~1 gallon, just to get a feel for it:

 

Salinity: greater than 32ppt (less than 33ppt) refractometer

pH: less than 8.3 (greater than 8.1, significantly closer to the color for 8.3) Elos

Alk: less than but very close to 9.6dKH (greater than 9.3) Salifert

Mg: greater than 1230ppm (less than 1260) Salifert

Ca: greater than 400ppm (less than 410) Red Sea

 

I added 9 grams of NaCl, because 32ppt is too low for me. This is when I decided to take the note for an additional 10% reduction in initial water volume in to account for the remainder of my testing. Adding 9 grams of NaCl (for an even 100) bumped my salinity to slightly less than 34ppt. I redid all the other tests and got the same results.

 

So at this point I was very happy with what I was seeing. So I decided to make this in to a batch I can use for water changes for the next few days. Taking the bucket with the existing 1 gallon sample in it, I added enough of everything (in the proper order and with a little more mixing time) to get the following totals. This is where I went with the additional 10% reduction in RODI. So for every gallon the directions call for 98% of a gallon Xs an additional 90% of that is 88.2% of a gallon. I went with as close as I could get to 88% of 4 gallons which is very close to 3.5 gallons. I went with the following totals of everything else:

 

NaCl: 373 grams (9 grams more than the calc for 4 gallons)

Mg: 100 grams

Liq A: 196 grams

Liq B: 84 grams

 

After an additional 20 minutes with the addition of a little heater the mix was at 78*

 

Salinity: slightly greater than 35ppt

pH: approx 8.3 or slightly under

Alk: less than or equal to 9.9 dkH

Mg: less than or equal to 1410

Ca: 440

 

I wanted to dilute this just a bit. 440 Ca and 1410 Mg don't bother me, but they could be less. 9.9dKH I am not crazy about, my tanks are all at a consistent 8.25 and the one time I got a little crazy with the Alk (like I increased the tank to about 8.9) my gorgonian threw a fit. It was getting late so I just added 2 cups of water and decided to let it mix all night, then I checked it when I got back home at about 2:30 this afternoon. So about 18 hours later. I would normally never test any other mix at less than 18 hours of mixing, so I was curious what I would find.

 

Sal: slightly less than 35ppt

pH: still less than 8.3, but definitely closer to 8.3 than 8.1

Alk: slightly greater than 8.25! That's a big change, it also happens to be exactly what I want. I tested it 3 times and then even got out my crappy SeaChem test and it also tested at 3 meq (so that's as close as I can get with that test).

Mg: slightly less than 1320

Ca: slightly less than 410

 

So Alk / Ca and Mg all dropped by a significant amount, and by more than what 2 cups more RODI should have done. The only other difference was that the water was now running about 81* F, but 81-82* is what I always get with this volume of water and the "always on" type heater I use. I made sure to let the refractometer sit with the water on the lens for a full 10 min to make absolutely sure it was down to room temp, because ATC is a lie. For real.

 

The final tests are more in line with my very first test on the original 0.98 gallon of RODI. Except Alk, I'm still trying to figure that one out and I don't want to get my hopes up that I'll be certain that I can get 8.25dKH out of this magically next time. But if anything, I think under-dosing the liquid B component by 10% should be ok (per Bob Stark).

 

So I'm going to retest this batch once I get down to the nitty gritty here in a couple days, and then I'm going to go with the exact same ratios as above but with 4.66 gallons of RODI (74.5 cups). 480 grams NaCl / 128 grams Mg / 252 grams liq A / 107 grams liq B. I'll let it run over night and test it at 18-24 hours. That's all I got for now...

 

 

 

 

I priced out the 100 gallon mix and shipping was $94.14 USD (~$127 CDN) to my house. Somehow it is only $4.99 to send it to my cousins place in Michigan though.

I always try to get the better of the free shipping on orders over $75. I'm sure we all do Do they offer that to ship to Canada if you ordered two of the 100 gallon batches (for example)?

[Cintax]

I always try to get the better of the free shipping on orders over $75. I'm sure we all do Do they offer that to ship to Canada if you ordered two of the 100 gallon batches (for example)?

 

 

Nope.

 

SUBTOTAL: $117.98

SHIPPING: $136.21

ESTIMATED TOTAL: $254.19

[crawdads57]

Oh man. I misread your original post and thought that $94 usd was total including the salt AND shipping. That is ridiculously expensive, obviously. Maybe you can just visit your cousin more often. Or I saw it on amazon prime for like $75 for the 100 gal. Still a little high though.

[Cintax]

No kidding. Add 30-35% for exchange plus the six to seven hour drive (each way) and it isn't really worth it.

[crawdads57]

Sales in Canada aside, does anyone have anything to tell me about this salt that isn't positive? Anything to watch out for? Does anyone have an educated guess as to what is in liquid A and B besides Ca and alkaline compounds?

[RayWhisperer]

I have nothing negative to say about this salt.

[Mojeska]

I just tried using this salt mix last night. The first issue I had was while removing the smaller bag of magnesium sulfate, the bottom of the bag broke out spilling half the mixture on the floor, the other half in the box (nice). At least they double bagged the sodium chloride.

 

I made a batch for 20 gallons using the included chart. I attempted to do this all by weight, because of all the clumps in the salt and sulfate. Everything was pretty straighforward, except I think my scale was not quite up to snuff, as far as measuring grams in very small increments. i couldn't find my refractometer, and since it was late when I started, I couldn't go out and buy one. Anyway, I ordered a new refractometer (the RedSea version), and will test the salinity on Tuesday. That said, everything did appear to mix well within an hour.

[Cintax]

You could try emailing them for a replacement if it was a defect in packaging.

[crawdads57]

Second batch test results:

 

4.66 gallons of RODI (74.5 cups). 480 grams NaCl / 128 grams Mg Sulf / 252 grams liq A / 107 grams liq B. Mixed 22 hours prior to testing. Temp of mix at testing: 80* F.

 

Salinity: nearly exactly 35ppt (refractometer)

pH: < or equal to 8.3 (elos)

Alk: > or equal to 2.96 (salifert)

Mg: < or equal to 1350 (salifert)

Ca: < or equal to 430 (red sea)

 

So amazingly I got that same Alk that I did on the first batch where I initially got 9.9dKH, but then after 18 hours it tested at 8.25. I only tested this mix at 22 hours (not 20 minutes after mixing as I did the first time). I tested 2 tanks also and my tanks tested slightly low (which was expected) so I dosed them with a small amount of BW Reef Code B and retested. I got the number I wanted for both tanks after dosing / retesting (2.96 / 8.25) so then I retested the ESV mix water once more and got the same result (2.96 / 8.25). So, again, I am not certifying that my salifert test kit is exactly correct, but I can verify for myself that this water mixes up to the same test result as I am wanting for my tanks given time to settle over night.

 

The only change I'm going to make to the above recipe is to decrease the Mag Sulfate from 128grams per 4.66gallons of water to 122 grams. I'm shooting for approximately 1300ppm Mg rather than 1350. I'm just guessing at that math since I know that the liquid part A also provides some of the Mg, but what percentage of the total Mg I do not know.

 

Does it matter if I go for 1300 or 1350 Mg, of course not, but 1290 is 3X 430 which is that 3:1 Mg:Ca ratio we've all read about, so I'm just doing it "because" and to see if I can get the correct test number next week when I test after changing the formulation so slightly.

 

I wont bore you with those results unless someone says they would like to know, which I doubt - lol.

[Mojeska]

You could try emailing them for a replacement if it was a defect in packaging.

Thanks for the suggestion, and I did reach out to them today. They have already responded, and are sending me a replacement bag of the MS. Excellent customer service.

[Cintax]

Thanks for the suggestion, and I did reach out to them today. They have already responded, and are sending me a replacement bag of the MS. Excellent customer service.

 

Fantastic! I'm glad it worked out for you.

[crawdads57]

So I tested the bottom of the bucket from this same batch after 6 days and with only about 0.75 gallons left in the mix bucket. Alk was lower and so was Ca. I tested Alk at 2.5 meq (7.0 dKH / 125 ppm). I tested Ca at 400 ppm. Compare that to the last test of Alk at 2.96meq (8.25 dKH / 148ppm) and Ca at 430ppm. Magnesium didn't change noticeably.

 

Anyone have any info on this? I don't think that 8.25 Alk and 430 Ca are so imbalanced that I should expect any reactions in my mixing bucket, right? And I mix the contents of the bucket continuously throughout the week - that little 100gph pump works all day and night. I even make sure its oriented straight up so that its like a fountain and I take a measuring cup and mix it up even more before I use the water. I watch it for evaporation using my refractometer and this week I added about 1.5 cups of RODI water to the mix when it was down to about 3.5 gallons (originally at 4.66 gallons) to get the salinity back to 35ppt. But this should not have been anywhere close to enough to alter the Alk or Ca that much.

 

Has anyone else out there tested their mix like this (over time in the mixing container), whether it is ESV or not?

[RayWhisperer]

I've never bothered testing after days. My only guess would be abiotic precipitation. Most likely onto the heater and pump.